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Look who's side God is no now.

Hans Blaster

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It isn't really "religious conservatives" versus "progressives" that triggered that comment by our void-dwelling philosopher friend was about , [but] bad biblical interpretation, not the specific politics, based on bad methodology of analysis. The more the extracted quote is sought to serve a modern political purpose, the more likely it is to be "cherry-picked'. Even this "good hermannootics" is still passed through a general theological lens, so frankly I don't care. If I want to know what the some author of a book of Jewish scripture meant, I'm don't care how it is being interpreted today by various branches of Judaism, or Christianity. Instead, I'll find someone who works to understand what it meant to the author in the context of its time. Likewise with NT writings, if I want to know what Paul or "Luke" or "Mark" meant, then I will find analysists who work with in the contemporary context of authorship and not filter it through Reformed, or Catholic, or any other modern Christian theology. Being non-Christian is a benefit to our understanding when we can find the appropriate sources.

As for the ICE passage, I have no idea what the text even was because it doesn't matter as no government agency has any business quoting any scriptures for any reason.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Right. The ICE video was not pitched to the fully biblically literate and the verse was not picked "willy-nilly."

"Stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice. One may protest against evil; it can be exposed and, if need be, prevented by use of force. Evil always carries within itself the germ of its own subversion in that it leaves behind in human beings at least a sense of unease.

Against stupidity we are defenseless.

...

The fact that the stupid person is often stubborn must not blind us to the fact that he is not independent. In conversation with him, one virtually feels that one is dealing not at all with a person, but with slogans, catchwords and the like that have taken possession of him. He is under a spell, blinded, misused, and abused in his very being. Having thus become a mindless tool, the stupid person will also be capable of any evil and at the same time incapable of seeing that it is evil. This is where the danger of diabolical misuse lurks, for it is this that can once and for all destroy human beings.

Yet at this very point it becomes quite clear that only an act of liberation, not instruction, can overcome stupidity.

Here we must come to terms with the fact that in most cases a genuine internal liberation becomes possible only when external liberation has preceded it. Until then we must abandon all attempts to convince the stupid person.

This state of affairs explains why in such circumstances our attempts to know what ‘the people’ really think are in vain and why, under these circumstances, this question is so irrelevant for the person who is thinking and acting responsibly. The word of the Bible that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom declares that the internal liberation of human beings to live the responsible life before God is the only genuine way to overcome stupidity.

But these thoughts about stupidity also offer consolation in that they utterly forbid us to consider the majority of people to be stupid in every circumstance. It really will depend on whether those in power expect more from people’s stupidity than from their inner independence and wisdom.
" - Dietrich Bonhoeffer

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Which many will see as a strong argument against education.

The longer I live the more I am convinced that the war against education, the war against science, the war against medicine, the war against competency is not a side-effect of certain political policies; but is a strategic necessity by certain people in power. Waging war on education and on credible institutions of knowledge and learning is the point--because destroying education and destroying faith in such institutions is strategically beneficial.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It is the most interesting of all of the fictional universes we discuss.
It's actually not. ... but don't get me wrong. I like to see Khan get kicked by Kirk and friends just like everyone else does.
Lucas? The only politics I remember in his work was the comment about democracy failing in the 3rd prequel, otherwise his morality tales were rather black and white (and often costumed that way as well).
You're missing the point, as usual.
I am unfamiliar with the 70s work of Stan Lee.
Both the 60s and 70s Marvel was, for the most part, anti-Communist. In fact, most of my outlook on life was gained from the first four Marvel comics I ever bought as kid. I still see the world pretty much that way even today.
Blaming a failed job application on "DEI" and "Marxism" is weak sauce.
.... I'm pretty sure that it wasn't because I couldn't do the job. I guess didn't apply enough pink, blue and orange to my hair-do and polish my nose rings up enough.
I'm telling this to the poster who is soft on separation of government and religion. (And therefore weak on opposition to theocracy.)

Actually, my support or opposition to, as you call it, "theocracy" depends upon a host of diverse, nuanced factors. Not all theocracies are built the same. Whether I may or may not be "weak" on opposition to theocracy doesn't quite follow directly on having a more lenient proviso between the extent to which I think government and religion can (as opposed to some prescriptive "should") interrelate.

Whatever your feelings are on the matter, I'm not daunted by any of those in the least. Just like you're not daunted by mine.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Which many will see as a strong argument against education.

Those in the "many" category of which you speak are usually those who scream the loudest in support of the so-called perspicuity of scripture.

Maybe also see post #36 as a supplement here.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Right. The ICE video was not pitched to the fully biblically literate and the verse was not picked "willy-nilly."

That's just the thing: I need to talk face to face with the individual so I can question him further about his particular church background, his own ideology, and how he thinks the Bible should be "read." Until then, it's underdetermined.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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That's fair.
 
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ralliann

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And people wonder "why" I place so much weight on the field of Hermeneutics and Biblical Exegesis where the Bible is being read.
I wish more hermeneutics were applied to the commentary of the video. This is just Anti American claptrap.
While it seeks to bash America, as though these NON WHITE people have no such tendencies as Whites do..
Our Government accused...YET>>>>>>
These poor people, suffering people have no such government over them that is the cause of this?
Oh no these non whites can never be under drug lord's. or narco states. After all they are non white
Shame on the bringer of such falsehoods about others.
 
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Hans Blaster

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It's actually not. ... but don't get me wrong. I like to see Khan get kicked by Kirk and friends just like everyone else does.

You're missing the point, as usual.
Probably because you don't make it clear what that point was. Was it something about ancient weapons or hokey religions? There is so little in the "Lucas universe" to even analyze from which to discern "politics". (That's why when found out there was a Trek v. Wars debate on "Star"s I knew I was a Trek man. After all there were only 3 SW movies but there was twice as many ST movies plus two whole TV series.)
Both the 60s and 70s Marvel was, for the most part, anti-Communist. In fact, most of my outlook on life was gained from the first four Marvel comics I ever bought as kid. I still see the world pretty much that way even today.
And I've never bought or even read a Marvel comic. Most of the characters in these Marvel movies that they advertise I had never heard of before. (I knew Spiderman.) I saw most of the Spiderman film on TV and a part of one of the X-men movies.
.... I'm pretty sure that it wasn't because I couldn't do the job. I guess didn't apply enough pink, blue and orange to my hair-do and polish my nose rings up enough.
This is one of the myths about hiring. There are lots of jobs where there are many people who could "do the job" therefore whoever they hired was almost certainly qualified and capable.
the proper interrelation between governments and religions are things like the sending and paying of tax bills, the putting out of fires when they start on the religions property, the arresting of molesters, etc. Governments using religious doctrine is not acceptable.
Whatever your feelings are on the matter, I'm not daunted by any of those in the least. Just like you're not daunted by mine.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I don't think you are getting the point of this thread. It is not about what the verse means (And now that I have looked at the article, I'm still not sure), but that a government agency has no place using religion in its propaganda. The US government is legally required to not endorse religious positions.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Yes, I know. I've heard complaints over the years that I say "too little."
And I've never bought or even read a Marvel comic. Most of the characters in these Marvel movies that they advertise I had never heard of before. (I knew Spiderman.) I saw most of the Spiderman film on TV and a part of one of the X-men movies.
Admittedly, most comic books made are, or have been, fodder for the fire. But there have been a few comics story lines from DC and Marvel that are as entertaining, and which approach a work of "art," as some of the better Star Trek episodes have been (or as the first Star Wars movies have been).
This is one of the myths about hiring. There are lots of jobs where there are many people who could "do the job" therefore whoever they hired was almost certainly qualified and capable.
Yeah, yeah, I know. There's the common appeal to: "It's not completely their fault for not hiring you---There were just too many other good applicants and it's tough going for everyone right now." .... maybe. But I'm not going to tell you where I applied.

Yes, and you're coming at this from the context (more or less) of our current valuation of the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights (and other asundry laws). However, even so, these "texts" are still read and interpreted in more than one way, and like the Bible, are open game for Hermeneutical analysis-------------of various kinds. So, again, Hermeneutics, of the academic sort I'm referring to, play a part in the controversial political debate over the extent to which religion and government should (or should not) be separated.

So, Governments (in this case specifically, our Government) using religious doctrine is not acceptable, not as a legal necessity, but as a provisional preference. Where I would come in on all of this is as a hermeneutical in-betweener, who doesn't want the FFRF (Freedom From Religion Foundation) leading the way, but who also doesn't want someone like the following figure to lead the way either:

 
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2PhiloVoid

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Those are good points, but if we apply more academic level hermeneutics (as well as biblical exegesis), we'll probably need to consider the following when addressing biblical statements that are taken out of context:

 
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2PhiloVoid

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Personally, as a philosopher, I would go so far as to say that our government, at any point, whether it's coming from the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, should not be using propaganda---------------PERIOD. We can do better than that. WE should do better than that.

Why don't we? Propaganda of any sort is not acceptable.
 
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durangodawood

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Well that is certainly a highly considered reply. And I read it and appreciate it.

Perhaps my problem is that, as a contemporary American in our hyper-political era, I am getting a wrong impression from some of the loudest Christians who seem to dismiss anything like a progression. Instead Jesus and his ministry cannot rise above any other part of the Bible in authority for our times - if that part is useful for enforcing ideological conformity.

Thats the impression I get anyway.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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It does, until you consider that there are a multitude of concepts that aren't covered in the red font. (Red font referring to the words that were supposedly spoken by Jesus)

I've heard that same argument leveraged before, things along the lines of "Jesus never said anything about homosexuality or abortion" (just to name examples)

...but neglect to acknowledge that's true of many modern contentious topics.

People operating on the premise that silence on an issue implies neutrality or even approval of one perspective seems like it would be deeply flawed.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Those are good points, but if we apply more academic level hermeneutics (as well as biblical exegesis), we'll probably need to consider the following when addressing biblical statements that are taken out of context:


I started watching this video and when I heard where the coordinates of the quoted text, my thoughts were: "is this Yahweh calling Isiah to be a prophet?", so I read the chapter and it was. (I can see why Christians would That was followed immediately by his first transmitted prophecy to the king of Judah about his enemies falling away before the pregnant lady's son learns right from wrong. Let's see what the professional academic hermenoodelists have to say... (watching rest of video...)

Pretty much the same understanding. They put a bit more into it about misunderstanding the "mission of Isiah" as general whatever you want it to be "mission from God" (w/ or w/o the dry white toast) that can be summarized with this bit of Midwestern scripture:

Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.
 
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durangodawood

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Thats part of the problem right there: that human behavior should be governed by a comprehensive list of divine shalls and shall nots - which is the impression you get from earlier parts of the Bible. But the overall intent for correct human behavior that I get from Jesus' words and example can be summed up by: love God and love your neighbor.

Is there any red font that permits us to finally wear mixed fabrics again? (Or do we need a warning sign at our band merch table?)
 
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ralliann

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Those are good points, but if we apply more academic level hermeneutics (as well as biblical exegesis), we'll probably need to consider the following when addressing biblical statements that are taken out of context:

More of the same "false witness" even worse....Enforcing law and justice is not the State, establishing a religion.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Which is fine, but that doesn't make the allusions to fiction I don't know useful in communicating things.
It really shouldn't that hard to sort out and lawyers have been doing it for ages. Or at least it was until nitwits like CJ Roberts started defining "freedom of religion" to mean "freedom to use my religion as a sheild against other laws protecting your rights" instead of "freedom to practice".
your contrast to the FFRF is a literal Nazi? Sheesh. I skimmed the video (Phil Williams is one of the best local reporters in the country on this topic of right wing extremists. Perhaps it is because there are so many nearby for him to investigate.) I think you can do better as a counter-example. I've supported the political positions of the FFRF on their one issue since I found out about them many years ago. I didn't even know they were a group for "atheists and agnostics" until a few years back.
 
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