Logical Problems with Calvinism

FreeGrace2 · Jan 9, 2016

tulipbee said:
Then those people are elects cause it only happens to them. That everyone are the elects

Calvinists place the wrong emphasis on the "elects". We know from Eph 1:4 that God elects believers. And there are no verses that indicate that elects who will believe.

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love"

OK. "He chose us". Who are the "us" in v.4? Paul defines specifically who the "us" are in 1:19 - and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

That's who he is referring to in 1:4 by "us". So it's ONLY believers who He has chosen or elected. And the verse tells us the purpose for this election: "that we would be holy amd blameless". This isn't about choosing people to be saved and he used "holy and blameless" to indicate how saved people are.

Consider 1 Cor 1:2 - To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

Clearly, it is only believers who have been "called to be holy".

2 Pet 3:14 - So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2016

Here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)

Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)

The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)

Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)

Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14, 15)

Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8, 9, 10)

Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)

Balaam (Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24) (Numbers 31:8) (Joshua 13:22) (Jude 1:11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45, 46)

Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)

The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14, 15)

Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)

Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)

Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5, 6)

Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)

Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)

Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7, 8)

The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19, 20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

....

FreeGrace2 · Jan 9, 2016

I said this:
"but we will never be sinless this side of eternity."

Once again, the Bible says this:

"those who say they have no sin have DECEIVED THEMSELVES and the truth is NOT IN THEM" 1 Jn 1:8

The Bible tells us to sin less, not that we will become sinless.

Your view denies the sin nature which Paul clearly taught was STILL active in himself. Rom 7 and Gal 5.

Jason0047 said:
If your interpretation is true then the Bible contradicts the verses I already put forth here. But we both know there are no contradictions in the Bible.

I haven't interpreted 1 Jn 1:8. What it says is direct and clear; those who say they have no sin (that would be those who claim sinless perfection) have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them.

Regarding Romans 7 and Galatians 5, there is no contradiction with the verses you've quoted. It's just that your understanding of them is not in line with Scripture.

And, how can it be, since you've "deceived yourself and the truth is not in you"?

Side Note:

For one, you have not explained how the surrounding text of 1 John 1:8 is teaching against sinless perfectionism. Oh and no. Sinless Perfectionism still works with a believer in regards to confessing their sins to the Lord.

If by "sinless perfection" you only mean that believers aren't sinning constantly, or in a constant state of sin, then I'll agree with you. But if you really think that a believer can and will achieve a continual state of sinlessness, you're quote wrong, as 1 Jn 1:8 says.

For one of the purposes of confession is to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (See 1 John 1:9) (i.e. To overcome sin). Two, you have not explained the verses I brought forth that defend Sinless Perfectionism....

I have already explained how 1:9 fits perfectly as well as 2:1. And 1 Jn 1:8 proves outright that the verses you think teach sinless perfection do not teach that.

From this post of yours, I'm getting the idea that by sinless perfection you really only mean that a believer isn't constantly in a state of sin. Tow which I and the Bible agree.

We call that sinning less. Not sinless. There's a very big difference.

We are to sin less. We cannot be sinless.

ps: the less we sin, the more we aren't sinning. Is that what you mean by "sinless perfection"?

FreeGrace2 · Jan 9, 2016

Jason0047 said:
I mean, there are so many red flags (-verses-) in the Bible that refute OSAS, one would think they were in Russian airport.

There are none. But there are many who think there are.

com7fy8 · Jan 9, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
So the only thing that can be said about this verse is that regeneration and belief occur at the same time.

FreeGrace2 said:
On the contrary, Eph 2:5 indicates a relationship:
"even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)"

FreeGrace2 said:
The parentheses indicates the same status as "made us alive with Christ". iow, being made alive is obviously regeneration. Which is the same status of having been saved.

I would say a person needs to be made alive in faith so the person can believe. And becoming alive includes regenerating the person. And all this is turning the person "from the power of Satan to God" > Acts 26:18.

And, "of course", in the process of trusting in Jesus (Ephesians 1:12) we become forgiven.

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

So, included in all this is how the Holy Spirit joins a person to the Holy Spirit, so he or she is "one spirit with Him"; and in this union the Holy Spirit effects the person to be alive in love with faith to believe by loving.

Before the Holy Spirit changes someone, he or she is "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1) . . . not alive in love for God. So, humans can not adequately love God in their own free wills which are dead in sin. We needed for God to first make us alive in His love so we can choose all He desires.

So we are so dependent, not only "depraved" as some might understand "depraved" to mean. But I understand that there are Calvinists who explain that, by "depraved", they do not mean strictly and only sinful, but how dependent we are on God, with no hope for how we might try to get our own selves to change and trust and obey Jesus.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 9, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Sin is separation from God:

Isaiah 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Micah 3:4

Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.

Ezekiel 39:23-24

And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them

Isaiah 1:15

And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Deuteronomy 31:17-18

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

Proverbs 1:28 CJB and Proverbs 1:29

Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord

Isaiah 57:17 ESV

Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.

Proverbs 15:29

The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2

And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.

John 9:31 ESV

We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.

Proverbs 28:9

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Job 27:8-9 GNV

For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?

Zechariah 7:13 KJ2

Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.

Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT

Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.

Jeremiah 14:10-12

Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

Isaiah 58:9 HCSB

At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,

Proverbs 21:13

Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Psalm 66:18

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me

Psalm 34:15-16

The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth...

With just a little bit of discernment, one immediately realizes how the word "dead" is used in the Bible for different things.

Regarding Abraham's impotence, he was described as good as "dead" in Heb 11:12

Regarding loss of fellowship, which is a legitimate separation, in 1 Tim 5:6, and some of the verses you quoted

Regarding eternal separation from God, the Bible uses the term "second death" in Revelation.

The biggest problem is the failure to discern between fellowship, which CAN be broken, and relationship, which cannot be broken. Unless one understands the difference, they cannot discern Scripture.

The prodigal son is an example of this. He continued to be the SON throughout the parable, even when in a far country. What had been lost was fellowship, NOT relationship. What was restored was not relationship, but fellowship when he repented and returned.

To consider fellowship and relationship to be just 2 words referring to the same thing will PREVENT one from properly understanding God's Word.

But those who are so stuck in their view about loss of salvation, simply will not accept the difference, even though Jesus gave us an example of the difference in the prodigal SON.

GillDouglas · Jan 9, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Well, the Bible is my answer.

God's Word is clear about instructions for his people. He says if his people shall humble themselves, pray, seek his face, and turn from their wicked way, then He will hear them and forgive their sin and heal their land.

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2 Chronicles 7:14).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

Is a person who sins all the time a humble person or a proud person? Think about it.

The way you make it sound by what you believe, you make me think God gives grace to even proud people? Is that true? Well, the Bible says, God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble; And a person who sins all the time is not a humble person before God. They are a proud person.

....

One who claims to be without sin is a very proud person.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 9, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Well, the Bible is my answer.

This is a total cop-out. It answers nothing. Anyone and everyone can say that.

When a question is given, an answer must be specific and address the actual question.

God's Word is clear about instructions for his people. He says if his people shall humble themselves, pray, seek his face, and turn from their wicked way, then He will hear them and forgive their sin and heal their land.

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2 Chronicles 7:14).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

Is a person who sins all the time a humble person or a proud person? Think about it.

No one would argue against these verses. But NONE of them teach that one can lose salvation.

The way you make it sound by what you believe, you make me think God gives grace to even proud people? Is that true?

Really? Who does God give grace to? Sinners, that's who. Which is WHY mankind NEEDS God's grace.

Apparently you still don't understand the meaning of grace. Undeserved merit. God's riches at Christ's expense.

If it weren't for God's grace, no one would or could be saved. Period.

Well, the Bible says, God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble; And a person who sins all the time is not a humble person before God. They are a proud person.....

What are you going to do with these verses:

1 Pet 3:18 - For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

Rom 5:6 - You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

These verses are what grace is all about.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 9, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

There is NO DOUBT that one can fall away from the faith.

But no where in Scripture does that equate or indicate loss of salvation. That's just an assumption of equivalency.

Eternal life is a gift of God per Rom 6:23. And the gifts of God are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.

All believers have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise and guarantee from God for His own possession (believers) for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5

Since these verses are true, all the verses used by those who claim loss of salvation have totally misunderstood the verses they use.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
I said this:
"but we will never be sinless this side of eternity."

Once again, the Bible says this:

"those who say they have no sin have DECEIVED THEMSELVES and the truth is NOT IN THEM" 1 Jn 1:8

The Bible tells us to sin less, not that we will become sinless.

Your view denies the sin nature which Paul clearly taught was STILL active in himself. Rom 7 and Gal 5.

I haven't interpreted 1 Jn 1:8. What it says is direct and clear; those who say they have no sin (that would be those who claim sinless perfection) have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them.

Regarding Romans 7 and Galatians 5, there is no contradiction with the verses you've quoted. It's just that your understanding of them is not in line with Scripture.

And, how can it be, since you've "deceived yourself and the truth is not in you"?

If by "sinless perfection" you only mean that believers aren't sinning constantly, or in a constant state of sin, then I'll agree with you. But if you really think that a believer can and will achieve a continual state of sinlessness, you're quote wrong, as 1 Jn 1:8 says.

I have already explained how 1:9 fits perfectly as well as 2:1. And 1 Jn 1:8 proves outright that the verses you think teach sinless perfection do not teach that.

From this post of yours, I'm getting the idea that by sinless perfection you really only mean that a believer isn't constantly in a state of sin. Tow which I and the Bible agree.

We call that sinning less. Not sinless. There's a very big difference.

We are to sin less. We cannot be sinless.

ps: the less we sin, the more we aren't sinning. Is that what you mean by "sinless perfection"?

I already been over this before. Your interpretation of 1 John 1:8 is not supported by the surrounding verses or any other verse in the Bible. Nowhere does John argue against those who think they should live perfectly holy lives. Also, 1 John 1:9 does not support your interpretation of 1 John 1:8, either. 1 John 1:9 says one of the reasons why we confess our sins is to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John preached the "baptism of repentance" which involved them confessing their sins.

"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins." (Mark 1:4-5).

This is then followed by the fruits of repentance.

"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance" (Luke 3:8).

See 1 John 2:4 is using different words but at it's heart or core, it is saying the same thing as 1 John 1:8.

"Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him," (1 John 2:4).

1 John 1:6 is saying the same thing, too.

"If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." (1 John 1:6).

For you are saying that a believer cannot stop sinning. But the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, though.

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:" (2 Peter 2:9).

But there are those who have slipped in unawares and feed themselves among the brethren who love the wages of unrighteousness and who cannot cease from sin.

12 "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;" (2 Peter 2:12-15).

In other words, the Bible describes how there are false prophets who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin. They cannot cease from sin. That is one of the ways we know them in being false prophets. It's what Peter plainly says.

...

FreeGrace2 · Jan 9, 2016

com7fy8 said:
I would say a person needs to be made alive in faith so the person can believe.

I'm sorry my post wasn't clear enough for you.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 9, 2016

Jason0047 said:
I already been over this before. Your interpretation of 1 John 1:8 is not supported by the surrounding verses.

I've never "interpreted" it either. The statement is crystal clear and indicts your view.

btw, please answer my question about your understanding of "sinless perfection". Do you mean periods of time between sins where one isn't sinning? Or that one has actually achieved a state of sinlessness?

com7fy8 · Jan 9, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
The biggest problem is the failure to discern between fellowship, which CAN be broken, and relationship, which cannot be broken. Unless one understands the difference, they cannot discern Scripture.

If we are children of God, we are getting correction >

"But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8)

So, if someone supposes he or she is completely without sin, this could in fact mean the person is not getting correction by our Heavenly Father.

I notice how during the vision of Revelation . . . first, it appears John was not ready to see Jesus . . . if Revelation means he fell down because of fear > Revelation 1:17. But Jesus tells John he needs to not fear . . . a possible correction.

Also, later, we see how . . . right during the vision of Revelation, John becomes unspiritual enough to worship an angel . . . certainly a sin > Revelation 19:9-10, Revelation 22:8-9.

So, John was not perfect; but because he was so close to God, he got more closely corrected!

Now . . . about this correction testified in Hebrews 12:4-11 > this correction brings the perfection of God's love > making us "partakers of His holiness" in His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness", as this scripture plainly says. So, the focus of our Father's correction is not only on do's and don'ts and no-no pleasures, then, I would say. But how we become in love is essential >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

And I think Philippians 2:13-16 can help to feed us how to become more and more mature in God's love, so we "have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." So, I consider that our Biblical assurance of salvation is not that we said a prayer, or that we can put together verses of Bible assurance, but our assurance is how our Father is correcting us and curing our nature in His love so we are "as He is" "in this world" - - - "that we may have boldness in the day of judgment", John says.

It says "love has been perfected among us" . . . so this has already been getting done in us who are God's children.

So, thank You, God our Father, for having such a good standard and how You are succeeding in this with whoever we are who are Your children ! ! !

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
There is NO DOUBT that one can fall away from the faith.

But no where in Scripture does that equate or indicate loss of salvation. That's just an assumption of equivalency.

Eternal life is a gift of God per Rom 6:23. And the gifts of God are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.

All believers have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise and guarantee from God for His own possession (believers) for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5

Since these verses are true, all the verses used by those who claim loss of salvation have totally misunderstood the verses they use.

Your the only person I have encountered who has ever said this. It is rather odd. Falling away means exactly what it says. To fall away from something means you lost it. But please look at the verses I put forth in my list and do not just hit the "disagree button." If you were to go thru that list, you will see it is evident that one is not saved if they backslide or fall away.

....

com7fy8 · Jan 9, 2016

com7fy8 said:
I would say a person needs to be made alive in faith so the person can believe.

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm sorry my post wasn't clear enough for you.

Hi, Free Grace . . . I did not mean that to disagree with you. I was confirming what I understood you to mean. I think you have explained yourself very well.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
I've never "interpreted" it either. The statement is crystal clear and indicts your view.

btw, please answer my question about your understanding of "sinless perfection". Do you mean periods of time between sins where one isn't sinning? Or that one has actually achieved a state of sinlessness?

The best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you. Your interpretation cannot be supported by the context. Only verse 10 appears to say the same thing you desire it to say. But here are some good cross references for 1 John 1:8 (that should hopefully help you to see what it is saying):

1 John 1:6,
1 John 1:10,
1 John 2:4,
1 John 2:9,
1 John 4:20,
James 2:14-16,
Titus 1:16.

....

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2016

com7fy8 said:
Hi, Free Grace . . . I did not mean that to disagree with you. I was confirming what I understood you to mean. I think you have explained yourself very well.

Well, I obviously do not agree. Besides 1 John 1:10, he still needs to show me verses that surround 1 John 1:8 that say a similar thing that backs up his interpretation. He also needs to show me other verses in the Bible that supports such a thought, too. See, the Bible can be confirmed by two or three witnesses. For where one truth is expressed in God's Word, it is shown to us elsewhere in His Word.

...

com7fy8 · Jan 9, 2016

Jason0047 said:
But here are some good cross references for 1 John 1:8 (that should hopefully help you to see what it is saying):

"Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." (James 5:16)

This is more context

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2016

com7fy8 said:
"Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." (James 5:16)

This is more context

Actually, the passage in James you quoted does not have anything to do with 1 John 1:8.
The point of confession of one's sins to God is to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness. Just re-read 1 John 1:9. It is what it says. As for confessing trespasses to your brothers and sisters. This is more of another exclusive way so to overcome sin. How so? Well, how can the fervent prayer of a righteous man avail anything in praying for each other if that person is going to just remain in their sin still? Would it not make sense that they are praying for someone who is struggling with a sin so as to overcome it? For it doesn't make sense to pray for a person who is just going to keep playing in the mud along with those who are in the mud themselves.

In fact, a parallel passage of James 5 here is 1 John 5:16-19. Pay special close attention to what it says in verse 19.

....

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2016

com7fy8 said:
If we are children of God, we are getting correction >

"But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8)

So, if someone supposes he or she is completely without sin, this could in fact mean the person is not getting correction by our Heavenly Father.

Uh, no. The Scriptures says, be ye holy as I am holy. Jesus says, be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. Jesus said to two people to: "sin no more." The purpose of chastening is to lead a person into holiness.

"They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness" (Hebrews 12:10) (New International Version).

An illegitimate son is one who is sinful and does not heed God's correction.

It is insanity to think God would ever allow His people to do evil with the thinking they are saved. God is righteous and good. He is Holy; And there is no darkness in Him.

...

Logical Problems with Calvinism

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