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"Local" Biblical flood dismissed

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ebia

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dollarsbill said:
The Flood account is simple, clear and abundant in the Bible. I can't deny it. You have offered no Scriptural proof for denying it to be literal.

Simplicity, clarity and abundance does not imply literalness. All language is a complex mix.

It's an important story that explains some vital truths; it should be expected to be referred to often. I've referred to it in sermons, classes and conversations; that doesn't mean it's literal.

The burden of proof is on you to show that scripture presents it as literal.


It's not that a story needs to use fancy words or syntax - parables are relatively simple and earthy in that regard but rich and complex in other ways. Very much like the Noah story.
 
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ebia

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dollarsbill said:
I have listed several Bible accounts of the Genesis Flood. That's good enough for me.

None of those references say or imply anything about the Noah story being literal.
 
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Keachian

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He could have omitted it from the Bible rather than giving detailed info about it several times.

There are many actual factual things that happened that aren't in the Bible, after all we have the Book of Joshua referencing the Book of Jasher, We have the rest of the deuterohistory referencing the Acts of the Kings of Israel, Kings of Judah, Solomon and King David. So obviously these whole books which the Bible says are literal history have been left out because they're not literal history....

I'd also say that detailed information about it is given once and it is referenced pretty much every other time.
 
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Assyrian

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In comparison to the non-literal view of the Bible the problems are near zero.
At least if you understand that God can speak to us through parables metaphor, as scripture shows us, you can build your understanding of the metaphor on the plain text. Abandon that scriptural understanding for man made rules of literalism and you lose even the plain meaning of the text because the supposed literal interpretation can be anything.
 
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gluadys

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The Flood a story? The Bible presents as literal.


So? What does that mean? And what does it matter?

How much of the Bible do you believe to be literal?

A good deal. But it depends on what you think "literal" means.
For example, "literal" does not mean "true". Except when you assert that something is "literally true". But "literal" by itself does not mean "true".



You miss the point, things don't need to be literal to be true, I'd certainly class the "Boy who cried Wolf" as a true story.


Well, the lesson is true. The story is not an actual historical incident. But it is literal. After all "literal" does not mean "history" either.

What makes the "Boy who cried Wolf" literal?
Nothing in the story is a symbol for something else.
The boy is a boy and nothing else. The sheep are sheep and nothing else. The wolf is a wolf and nothing else.

That is what "literal" means.

Has nothing to do with whether the story refers to an actual historical event.
So "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" is a story which is both literal (non-symbolic) and true (a true lesson) but not history.

One of the problems with tossing around the word "literal" is that these meanings get confused and conflated with each other.




Nobody has yet given any Biblical evidence that the Flood was not literal. So it must be literal.

Faulty logic. Nobody has yet given any Biblical evidence that the Flood was literal either. (And what do you mean by "literal"? Why is it important that anything in the bible be "literal"?)
 
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gluadys

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Doesn't have to. It just states it plainly.


"States plainly" is a good definition of "literal". But just because something is stated plainly doesn't mean it is not a story. Jesus' story of the Sower is stated plainly. But it is not history. Being stated plainly (either in the original or in a reference to it) does not turn a story into an actual event.



Then why are you denying it to be literal?

I don't deny the flood story to be literal. It is a straightforward, plainly told story with little if any figurative embellishment. I do deny it was an actual event if interpreted to be a global event. Like many stories, it may have a historically-based core such as a massive regional flood. But it wouldn't bother me if it were pure fiction. Pure fiction can also be literal.


Actually what I said is that the Bible clearly presents is as literal and nobody has provided Scripture proof otherwise.

What are the characteristics of presenting a story as literal? How do you distinguish between presenting a story as literal and presenting a story as not literal?

I know of a few cases where Jesus presents a story as literal in public, but then presents an allegorical meaning of the story to his disciples. The Parable of the Sower is a good example. The story, as Jesus first tells it, is entirely literal--using the definition above. It is stated plainly, without embellishment. There is no obvious symbolism. Anyone hearing the story without the followup would take it to refer to an actual person sowing actual grain in an actual field with actual birds, actual stones, actual weeds and actual good ground producing the results indicated.

Yet Jesus takes this quite literal story and gives is a quite different meaning using allegorical interpretation.

Based on Jesus' example and Peter's reference to the flood, the Church also gave the whole flood story an allegorical meaning: the flood waters are the water of baptism and the Ark is the Church outside of which there is no salvation.



I don't consider the many clear Biblical accounts to be negatives. Do you believe any of the Bible to be literal?


Depends on what you mean by "literal". I certainly agree that much in the bible is plainly stated without figurative embellishment. And I certainly agree that it is true theologically.

I don't agree that many of the stories are reliable history--though they may be legendary recountings of what was an actual historical event.

But even a plainly-stated passage may have an allegorical meaning that is more to the point than the obvious meaning.

Take something from European history. We probably all learned, as children, the little rhyme of Jack and Jill. It is a simple, plainly-stated incident which could have happened to some actual children. But what we don't learn as children is that it is actually a bit of political satire referring to the downfall of King Louis and Marie Antoinette of France during the French Revolution.



The Flood account is simple, clear and abundant in the Bible. I can't deny it. You have offered no Scriptural proof for denying it to be literal.


I agree, the Flood account is simple and clear and often referred to in other parts of scripture. Furthermore "simple" and "clear" are good definitions of "literal".

In this sense I agree the flood story is literal. I even agree the windows in heaven are literal.

That doesn't make it about an actual historical event--which is what I think you really mean by "literal". And if that is what you mean, you should be saying "historical" not "literal".

What is the big deal with the bible being literal anyway? The flood story as told is literal but not historical. It may be based on an actual historical flood, but what would it matter if it is not? It would still be true, provide a valuable moral lesson and be an appropriate allegory of salvation through Christ.
 
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dollarsbill

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So? What does that mean? And what does it matter?
Because God was making an example of them.
A good deal. But it depends on what you think "literal" means.
For example, "literal" does not mean "true". Except when you assert that something is "literally true". But "literal" by itself does not mean "true".
I'm sure everyone here knows what is meant by 'literal' in this matter. It actually happened.
You're playing word games. Literal, as in, it actually happened.
Faulty logic. Nobody has yet given any Biblical evidence that the Flood was literal either. (And what do you mean by "literal"? Why is it important that anything in the bible be "literal"?)
Because the Bible is important. And the Genesis Flood actually happened as is told throughout Scripture.
 
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Jase

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Because the Bible is important. And the Genesis Flood actually happened as is told throughout Scripture.

No, actually it did not. Not if you seriously think the Flood covered the currently known world, as opposed to the world the authors knew of. You obviously seem to ignore the fact that the Israelites hadn't the foggiest clue of the existence of Australia, Antarctica, North America, South America, etc.

And I still have yet to find a creationist who believes in a historical global flood who can account for why there have been at least 5 mass extinctions in Earth's history, not just the 1 mentioned in the Bible.

Why didn't God tell us about the Permian, KT, Devonian, etc. extinctions?
 
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ebia

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dollarsbill said:
He could have omitted it from the Bible rather than giving detailed info about it several times.

What!

It's a vital story for us to have, one that tells us something profoundly important regardless of its historicity.


The bible isn't there to be a source of some random historical facts.
 
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zeke37

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Then why didn't God just tell Noah to move rather than spending many years building the HUGE ark and saving animals?
we do not know the mind of God...
there was reasons why...obviously.
they were area specific animals...
He was teaching us all something, through the ages.

but i suppose we could ask all kinds of questions,
like why didn't God "take" Noah, like He did Enoch?
iow, the reasons why God flooded the area (at least)
has no bearing on whether it was literal or not, local or worldly
 
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gluadys

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So, in your view "literal" means "it actually happened in history".

The better choice of word in that case is "historical".

The view that scripture is to be understood "literally" came from the Common Sense school of the Reformation as an alternative to the predominantly allegorical interpretation of scripture which dominated the Middle Ages.

In allegorical interpretation, the plain simple sense of words is subordinated to allegorical meanings. So, the sense of the Parable of the Sower is not that a man sowed seed in a field with varying results, but that Christ came to sow the gospel (seed) in the hearts of humanity (field) with varying results depending on whether the person had a heart that was closed to the gospel (pathway), one quickly discouraged by difficulties (stony ground), distracted by worries and anxieties (weeds) or open and faithful (good ground).

As mentioned earlier, theologians of the time interpreted the flood story as an allegory of baptism and the Church. Similarly with many of the stories of the Old Testament. Yes, they were given as examples, but one can only understand the examples through knowing the allegorical interpretation.

Some allegorical interpretations were very convoluted, so it was impossible for simple, uneducated people to follow them or to discern a good interpretation from a bad one. The Reform leaders held that scripture should be understood by the uneducated as well as scholars and so promoted that one should read the words of scripture in their plain meaning and not seek out allegorical meanings. Let the plain meaning of the text stand as "the" meaning. (Except, of course, where scripture itself provides the key to the allegory, as Jesus does with the parable of the Sower and others).

"Plain meaning" is what "literal" means. Whether it actually happened or not is an entirely different matter.

Literally "windows of heaven" means windows in the sky through which rain (from the waters above the firmament) falls through. But I don't think even the Reform leaders held that is what actually happens.
 
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