"Local" Biblical flood dismissed

mannysee · Mar 24, 2012

I'd have trouble accepting a local flood having occured, when Peter talks about the same heavens and earth being reserved for fire (Revelation also mentioning the earth and its works burned up).

If it was not a whole-earth flood, then Peter has in mind a non-whole-earth burning up in his argument i.e. other regions of the earth have not passed into the age to come.

How would you address this?

1Mind1Spirit · Mar 24, 2012

mannysee said:
I'd have trouble accepting a local flood having occured, when Peter talks about the same heavens and earth being reserved for fire (Revelation also mentioning the earth and its works burned up).

If it was not a whole-earth flood, then Peter has in mind a non-whole-earth burning up in his argument i.e. other regions of the earth have not passed into the age to come.

How would you address this?

They are trying to say Peter's use of the word "kosmos" for fire, and "ancient world" for flood dont mean the same.
They are willingly ignorant that it had never rained before the flood, and our Father made some changes in the kosmos too.
They listen to what somebody has told them rather than try to understand what God has said.

dollarsbill · Mar 25, 2012

Assyrian said:
You need to take a closer look at the language being used.

I have. Our English translations are quite consistent.

Assyrian · Mar 25, 2012

mannysee said:
I'd have trouble accepting a local flood having occured, when Peter talks about the same heavens and earth being reserved for fire (Revelation also mentioning the earth and its works burned up).

Doesn't the word 'same' refer to 'the word' rather than 'the heavens and the earth'? Still, I agree Peter is using the same terms describing the heavens and the earth in verse 7 as he used to describe the heavens and earth in verse 5.

2Pet 3:5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

It is for the flood that he uses a different term, kosmos translated 'world'.

If it was not a whole-earth flood, then Peter has in mind a non-whole-earth burning up in his argument i.e. other regions of the earth have not passed into the age to come.

How would you address this?

2Pet 3:13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
The new heavens and earth are using the same terms as verse 5 for the creation and verse 7 the judgment by fire. It is the flood that uses the different term.

dollarsbill · Mar 25, 2012

Why would someone dispute a world wide Flood? Anyone know? The fact that God would drown MANY as an "example" is a clear message to humanity.

Assyrian · Mar 25, 2012

1Mind1Spirit said:
Sorry but you cant have it both ways. You said it was local, that means there were only a few of each animals that were native to a small area.
So it would not be that big a deal.
Now you want to make it sound like Noah is taking all the animals of the world.?????

Because I mentioned lions? They were a lot more widespread back then.
Here is a holiday pic of my avatar out enjoying a lion hunt.

I am afraid the Assyrians weren't that into conservation

Any place you want to use the whole earth and make it mean region it has to be supported by the text.

If region is the most common meaning, surely if you are going to claim a default meaning it should be the normal use? If neither meaning is explicitly clear from the text, then it means there is more than one interpretation.

In this case we know it is global because God is exterminating man, not Mesopotamians.
Every where else He calls the peoples by thier name.

An interesting argument, but an argument from silence which isn't the best basis. Two possible answers come to mind. It was a judgement against the inhabitants of a particular region, the land Noah lived in, rather than a judgment against particular peoples or tribes. Names are also important to distinguish between different peoples, but if their whole civilisation lived in that region and they didn't know anyone else, there would be no reason to list all the peoples living there.

1Mind1Spirit said:
All the earth was one lump standing in the water and out of the water.
The only thing they needed a boat for, was to navigate rivers.

Fortunately, most settlements were built along rivers or on the coast and boats were the handiest form of transport, especially if you were trying to move goods from one place to the next. Only a few generations ago the main form of goods transport in the UK were barges on rivers and canals and coasters, shallow draft ships going from port to port around the coast. The Battle of Britain kicked off with the Luftwaffe attacking coasters in the English channel to draw the RAF out for a fight. It is only very recently that road and rail have taken over as the main forms of regional goods transport with shipping used mainly for overseas transport.

dollarsbill · Mar 25, 2012

If the Flood wasn't world wide then why would God even command to build the ark or load animals?

Assyrian · Mar 25, 2012

dollarsbill said:
I have. Our English translations are quite consistent.

They are certainly consistent in following the tradition interpretation of erets as earth for the flood story. They are not consistent interpreting erets the same way throughout the OT.

Remember how I showed you all the different ways the NASB translated it?

common(1), countries(15), countries and their lands(1), country(44), countryside(1), distance*(3), dust(1), earth(655), earth the ground(1), earth's(1), fail*(1), floor(1), ground(119), land(1581), lands(57), lands have their land(2), open(1), other*(2), piece(1), plateau*(1), region(1), territories(1), wild(1), world(3).

Here is how the AV translates it:

land 1509, earth 712, ground 97, country 92, countries 48, lands 34, world 4, way 3, common 1, field 1, nations 1.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Assyrian · Mar 25, 2012

dollarsbill said:
If the Flood wasn't world wide then why would God even command to build the ark or load animals?

Maybe God cares for animal too. Jesus told us his heavenly Father even cares for sparrows. Add too that, when God gave us dominion over over the earth and all the animals, that makes us responsible for God's creation. Noah was the first conservationist.

artybloke · Mar 25, 2012

dollarsbill said:
If the Flood wasn't world wide then why would God even command to build the ark or load animals?

He didn't. That's why it's a story not a literal event.

Greg1234 · Mar 25, 2012

progmonk said:
Sure why not?

You do realize that the creation of heavenly bodies depicted in the parables and elsewhere, ran backwards, is the creation of terrestrial bodies right?

Keachian · Mar 25, 2012

Greg1234 said:
You do realize that the creation of heavenly bodies depicted in the parables and elsewhere, ran backwards, is the creation of terrestrial bodies right?

I didn't say anything about the stories themselves being parabolic, only that Jesus used them in a way that is similar to his parables.

1Mind1Spirit · Mar 26, 2012

Any place you want to use the whole earth and make it mean region it has to be supported by the text.

If region is the most common meaning, surely if you are going to claim a default meaning it should be the normal use? If neither meaning is explicitly clear from the text, then it means there is more than one interpretation.

Click to expand...

In this case we know it is global because God is exterminating man, not Mesopotamians.
Every where else He calls the peoples by thier name.

An interesting argument, but an argument from silence which isn't the best basis. Two possible answers come to mind. It was a judgement against the inhabitants of a particular region, the land Noah lived in, rather than a judgment against particular peoples or tribes. Names are also important to distinguish between different peoples, but if their whole civilisation lived in that region and they didn't know anyone else, there would be no reason to list all the peoples living there.

Let's go with "under whole heaven."
No where in scripture does it mean anything other than under whole heaven.

Sort results by: Book of the Bible | Most relevant search result

Genesis 7:19 KJV

And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered .
Read Genesis 7 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
Deuteronomy 2:25 KJV

This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble , and be in anguish because of thee.
Read Deuteronomy 2 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
Deuteronomy 4:19 KJV

And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
Read Deuteronomy 4 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
Job 28:24 KJV

For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;
Read Job 28 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
Job 37:3 KJV

He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.
Read Job 37 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
Job 41:11 KJV

Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
Read Job 41 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
Daniel 7:27 KJV

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Read Daniel 7 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
Daniel 9:12 KJV

And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

mannysee · Mar 26, 2012

Assyrian said:
Doesn't the word 'same' refer to 'the word' rather than 'the heavens and the earth'? Still, I agree Peter is using the same terms describing the heavens and the earth in verse 7 as he used to describe the heavens and earth in verse 5.

2Pet 3:5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

It is for the flood that he uses a different term, kosmos translated 'world'.

2Pet 3:13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
The new heavens and earth are using the same terms as verse 5 for the creation and verse 7 the judgment by fire. It is the flood that uses the different term.

You have overlooked verse 6 and how Peter frames his terms:-
(verse 6 is book-ended by verse 5 and 7)

You interpret "world" as local-area.
Peter mentions, "The world that then existed" and contrasts this with, "The heavens and earth that now exist". So Peter is determining the contrast here in his argument; "then" and "now".

It would be a stretch to think Peter is thinking local-area (then) and then switch to global (now) in his point.

His use of a different greek word is quite acceptable, where focus and argument are used to convince.

Assyrian · Mar 26, 2012

1Mind1Spirit said:
Let's go with "under whole heaven."
No where in scripture does it mean anything other than under whole heaven.

Sort results by: Book of the Bible | Most relevant search result

Genesis 7:19 KJV

And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered .
Read Genesis 7 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view

Deuteronomy 2:25 KJV

This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble , and be in anguish because of thee.
Read Deuteronomy 2 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view

Deuteronomy 4:19 KJV

And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
Read Deuteronomy 4 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view

Job 28:24 KJV

For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;
Read Job 28 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view

Job 37:3 KJV

He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.
Read Job 37 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view

Job 41:11 KJV

Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
Read Job 41 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view

Daniel 7:27 KJV

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Read Daniel 7 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view

Daniel 9:12 KJV

And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

Yet the very next reference you quoted, Deuteronomy 2:25, under the whole heaven talks about the terror of the the nations in the region around Canannite trembling in fear as they hear the Israelites are coming.

Exodus 15:14-16 The peoples have heard; they tremble; pangs have seized the inhabitants of Philistia. 15 Now are the chiefs of Edom dismayed; trembling seizes the leaders of Moab; all the inhabitants of Canaan have melted away. 16 Terror and dread fall upon them; because of the greatness of your arm, they are still as a stone, till your people, O LORD, pass by, till the people pass by whom you have purchased.

A similar phrase is found in Isaiah 13:5 They come from a distant land, from the end of the heavens, the LORD and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. You could have great fun with that verse warning about alien invasions

the word translated land is our old friend erets, the whole earth is going to be destroyed by invaders from a distant earth at the far end of the universe. Or not. It wasn't aliens Isaiah was warning about, but the Medes. Isaiah 13:17 Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. The ends of the heavens the Medes came from were the Zagros mountains in the Iran Iraq border.

1Mind1Spirit · Mar 26, 2012

Assyrian said:
Assyrian said:

Yet the very next reference you quoted, Deuteronomy 2:25, under the whole heaven talks about the terror of the the nations in the region around Canannite trembling in fear as they hear the Israelites are coming.

Click to expand...

I knew you would stumble here.
You seem to need a reading comprehension course.

This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble , and be in anguish because of thee.

God is talking about JUST the nations under the whole heaven that shall hear report of them. He niether says nor implies that He is talking about EVERY nation under heaven.

artybloke · Mar 26, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Why would someone dispute a world wide Flood? Anyone know? The fact that God would drown MANY as an "example" is a clear message to humanity.

What of? That God is a nasty piece of work and shouldn't be trusted?

Assyrian · Mar 26, 2012

1Mind1Spirit said:
I knew you would stumble here.
You seem to need a reading comprehension course.

This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble , and be in anguish because of thee.

God is talking about JUST the nations under the whole heaven that shall hear report of them. He niether says nor implies that He is talking about EVERY nation under heaven.

Click to expand...

In which case the phrase 'under the whole heaven' would be completely redundant, it wasn't all the nations on the planet, it was just the nations that heard. What was the point in saying under the whole heavens?

But that isn't how your translation took it. Notice the comma?

upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble
That means they are translating the Hebrew as a non-restrictive clause, all the nations under heaven will hear and will tremble. If they wanted to translate it as a restrictive clause, then they would have left out the comma:

upon the nations that are under the whole heaven who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble
Without the comma it would mean that only the nations who hear will be terrified, but they went for non-restrictive, all the nations under heaven would hear and would tremble.

good brother · Mar 26, 2012

Progmonk, In going back through this thread, I noticed you never responded to post #20. Would you mind addressing the points I made? Thank you.

In Christ, GB

good brother · Mar 26, 2012

Assyrian said:
In which case the phrase 'under the whole heaven' would be completely redundant, it wasn't all the nations on the planet, it was just the nations that heard. What was the point in saying under the whole heavens?

But that isn't how your translation took it. Notice the comma?

upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble

That means they are translating the Hebrew as a non-restrictive clause, all the nations under heaven will hear and will tremble. If they wanted to translate it as a restrictive clause, then they would have left out the comma:

upon the nations that are under the whole heaven who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble

Without the comma it would mean that only the nations who hear will be terrified, but they went for non-restrictive, all the nations under heaven would hear and would tremble.

There isn't a comma in the NIV version.

25 This very day I will begin to put the terror and fear of you on all the nations under heaven. They will hear reports of you and will tremble and be in anguish because of you.

In Christ, GB

"Local" Biblical flood dismissed

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