"Local" Biblical flood dismissed

ebia · Apr 6, 2012

Now you answer one. Did this happen:

There were two men in the same city, one rich, one poor. The rich man had a lot of sheep and cattle, but the poor man had nothing--just one small ewe lamb that he had bought. He raised that lamb, and it grew up with him and his children. It would eat from his food and drink from his cup--even sleep in his arms! It was like a daughter to him. Now a traveler came to visit the rich man, but he wasn't willing to take anything from his own flock or herd to prepare for the guest who had arrived. Instead, he took the poor man's ewe lamb and prepared it for the visitor.

dollarsbill · Apr 6, 2012

ebia said:
If what you actually mean is, for example, did Jesus historically perform miracles, get executed by crucifixion, and bodily rise from the tomb -yes.

Why do you take that literally? It doesn't say it's literal. According to your argument YOU must prove it is literal or it isn't literal.

ebia · Apr 6, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Why do you take that literally? It doesn't say it's literal. According to your argument YOU must prove it is literal or it isn't literal.

I didn't say that.

I said you made the positive claim that: the bible says the flood story is literal. The burden of proof is on you to support that claim.

Now if you want to discuss why I think the resurrection happened pretty much as described, and why it differs from the Noah story that's a fair but different sort of question.

Keachian · Apr 6, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Why would God say it if it doesn't mean what it says?

Is God more concerned about theology or about whether the Bible portrays an accurate history? If it were the later then why are the Book of Jasher, Annals of King David, the Annals of Solomon excluded? Especially seeing as how Jeroboam II and Omri are sidelined because they followed in the practices of Jeroboam I, however their reigns which brought in wealth and power aren't considered of note enough to talk about instead we have the focus on the spiritual health of the nation.

Every Flood account in the Bible is presented as literal. And there are several.

No they're not, they're presented, or they are called on to make a point about something else.

dollarsbill · Apr 6, 2012

ebia said:
I didn't say that.

I said you made the positive claim that: the bible says the flood story is literal. The burden of proof is on you to support that claim.

So you're not making a positive claim that Jesus performed miracles, was executed and bodily rose from the tomb?

Prove that was literal! It doesn't say it was literal.

dollarsbill · Apr 6, 2012

progmonk said:
No they're not, they're presented, or they are called on to make a point about something else.

Why wouldn't God talk about "something else" if that's what He was talking about?

ebia · Apr 6, 2012

dollarsbill said:
So you're not making a positive claim that Jesus performed miracles, was executed and bodily rose from the tomb?

They aren't things I'm trying to establish in this thread. I told you as examples of things I understand to actually have happened. If you don't believe they happened you shouldn't be posting here, if you do I don't need to prove them.

Stop trying to shift the burden of proof. You are caught and are playing games to try and wriggle out.

ebia · Apr 6, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Why wouldn't God talk about "something else" if that's what He was talking about?

Scripture uses parallels, types, metaphors, parables,... all the time because they are effective ways of communicating ideas.

dollarsbill · Apr 6, 2012

The Genesis Flood, detailed and literal indeed!

Genesis 7:10-24 (NASB)
10 It came about after the seven days, that the water of the flood came upon the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened. 12 The rain fell upon the earth for forty days and forty nights. 13 On the very same day Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark, 14 they and every beast after its kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, all sorts of birds. 15 So they went into the ark to Noah, by twos of all flesh in which was the breath of life. 16 Those that entered, male and female of all flesh, entered as God had commanded him; and the LORD closed it behind him. 17 Then the flood came upon the earth for forty days, and the water increased and lifted up the ark, so that it rose above the earth. 18 The water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered. 20 The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. 21 All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; 22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. 23 Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark. 24 The water prevailed upon the earth one hundred and fifty days.

Keachian · Apr 6, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Why wouldn't God talk about "something else" if that's what He was talking about?

He was, specifically eschatology, or are you saying that God can't use illustrations to make a point unless those illustrations are historically factual? Who are you to say that? Are you not a piece of clay that he has formed into a pot?

dollarsbill · Apr 6, 2012

ebia said:
They aren't things I'm trying to establish in this thread. I told you as examples of things I understand to actually have happened. If you don't believe they happened you shouldn't be posting here, if you do I don't need to prove them.

Stop trying to shift the burden of proof. You are caught and are playing games to try and wriggle out.

Jesus wasn't "playing games". "Just as it happened"

Luke 17:26-27 (NASB)
26 "And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

dollarsbill · Apr 6, 2012

progmonk said:
He was, specifically eschatology, or are you saying that God can't use illustrations to make a point unless those illustrations are historically factual? Who are you to say that? Are you not a piece of clay that he has formed into a pot?

See Genesis, above.

Keachian · Apr 6, 2012

dollarsbill said:
See Genesis, above.

You didn't answer my pot question! Address the pot question!

dollarsbill · Apr 6, 2012

progmonk said:
You didn't answer my pot question! Address the pot question!

If you don't take anything in the Bible to be literal then it really doesn't matter.

Keachian · Apr 6, 2012

dollarsbill said:
If you don't take anything in the Bible to be literal then it really doesn't matter.

Ok mister pot

ebia · Apr 6, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Jesus wasn't "playing games". "Just as it happened"

Luke 17:26-27 (NASB)
26 "And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Likewise I can say "just as it happened on The Bill last night..."

That wouldn't mean I thought The Bill was live documentary.

ebia · Apr 6, 2012

ebia said:
Now you answer one. Did this happen:

There were two men in the same city, one rich, one poor. The rich man had a lot of sheep and cattle, but the poor man had nothing--just one small ewe lamb that he had bought. He raised that lamb, and it grew up with him and his children. It would eat from his food and drink from his cup--even sleep in his arms! It was like a daughter to him. Now a traveler came to visit the rich man, but he wasn't willing to take anything from his own flock or herd to prepare for the guest who had arrived. Instead, he took the poor man's ewe lamb and prepared it for the visitor.

Still waiting for an answer

dollarsbill · Apr 7, 2012

ebia said:
Likewise I can say "just as it happened on The Bill last night..."

That wouldn't mean I thought The Bill was live documentary.

But YOU'RE not Jesus. Jesus said "just as it happened".

ebia · Apr 7, 2012

dollarsbill said:
But YOU'RE not Jesus. Jesus said "just as it happened".

You can't take two words out of a sentence and make them stand alone. "just as it happened in..." can refer to any shared story - TV fiction, parable, historical, whatever. That's true whoever says it.

dollarsbill · Apr 7, 2012

ebia said:
You can't take two words out of a sentence and make them stand alone. "just as it happened in..." can refer to any shared story - TV fiction, parable, historical, whatever. That's true whoever says it.

Comparing Jesus' words to "fiction" "any shared story"? Do you not know that Jesus is God???

"Local" Biblical flood dismissed

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