"Living" Computers

gold_wings · Jun 16, 2008

To Tissue and Interactic: Please calm down. As much as I am for a HEALTHY debate between religion and science, you've strayed from the issue at hand. Beware the sin of Pride! For now let's call it a draw but I would love to hear a continuation of your discussion on a more appropriate thread.

Moving on...

brinny said:
Only if He breathed life into it, just as He breathed life into Adam and he became a living soul

Do you mean in the litteral sense or metaphorically breathing?
I do get the sense Brinny that what you're trying to say is that God himself has to be the one to give life to said being in order for it to have a soul. This still doesn't affirm or deny the idea that something can have a soul if God created it via a human agent. Perhaps that question is the heart of the matter.
Thanks for the input Brinny

BrotherOfJesusChrist · Jun 16, 2008

As God is to us, we would be to them. God’s hand will be on them, and they will be the creation of God, by extension. (No, I will not elaborate.)

jiminpa · Jun 16, 2008

never mind--off topic.

white dove · Jun 18, 2008

gold_wings said:
This statement implies that God has stopped creating.

Yes and no. A reflection of God is scattered throughout His creation, just as an artist or poet is reflected through their creation. God created the heavens and the Earth... and Adam & Eve. From their subsequent actions, we have the human race. I believe that God "formed me in my mother's womb", in that I was meant to be here and was ultimately created by God in that sense.

God has dominion over all of creation; yet God has given us dominion over the Earth. Read: Huge responsibilities. God creates and we are given the tools to further His kingdom & glory. Does that make any sense?

We have free will, yet nothing can result without God being aware of it. What we see, hear and experience is not a direct result of the finger of God on the world. In that case, God is just a big a puppet master.. and in that case, non-believers would have a stronger case for not believing (and so would I). I just don't see God that same way though.

That was probably a huge tangent, but hopefully some of that came out the way I had intended.

gold_wings said:
Also, does this mean that for something to be created by God he himself has to come down from heaven and breath life into it?

God can choose to create in whatever manner He wishes (Was this the response you were looking for? ) I don't believe the Christian God can support (or stand behind as the Creator) this kind of creation process without going against what is spoken of in the Bible. It would go against God's nature to support such an undertaking like that in the hands of fallen creatures such as ourselves. We're idiots & slow learners. God knows that.

How does that make God the middle man exactly?

It makes God a middle-man to those who do not revere God as Creator. Human beings have the propensity to fail to give recognition to the One who is "larger than themselves." Human beings can be very prideful, greedy and ignorant.

gold_wings · Jun 22, 2008

Sorry for the late reply, I got really busy this week and had no time to indulge in my hobbies but I'm back...for now.

Back to the issue...

white dove said:
I believe that God "formed me in my mother's womb", in that I was meant to be here and was ultimately created by God in that sense.

Interesting thought. Then could it not be said that a sentient software might be formed in an engineer's mind by God? The engineer could just be there to serve the function of giving it form. Also, how do you know you were meant to be here (I ask this without meaning offence and only for the sake of asking)?

white dove said:
God creates and we are given the tools to further His kingdom & glory. Does that make any sense?

This doesn't really prove why sentient machines can't be created by God. For all you know, the creation of sentient machines is part of furhtering "His Kingdom & glory".

white dove said:
nothing can result without God being aware of it. What we see, hear and experience is not a direct result of the finger of God on the world. In that case, God is just a big a puppet master.. and in that case, non-believers would have a stronger case for not believing (and so would I). I just don't see God that same way though.

God would be aware of it...God is aware of everything. So what if God is a puppet master and you're just another puppet in the collection, He'd still be God. (once again, I mean no offence) Are you afraid that somehow this diminishes you? (I'm also guilty of going off in tangents)

white dove said:
God can choose to create in whatever manner He wishes (Was this the response you were looking for? ) I don't believe the Christian God can support (or stand behind as the Creator) this kind of creation process without going against what is spoken of in the Bible. It would go against God's nature to support such an undertaking like that in the hands of fallen creatures such as ourselves. We're idiots & slow learners. God knows that.

I agree, God creates in whatever manner He wishes.
Why can't God's creation method go against whats in the Bible? Everything God does doesn't have to conform with whats in the Bible. The Bible has only recorded what God has done in the past. For all you know he might use a new method of creation. He's creative you know (all puns intended).
Why would using fallen creatures for creating something else be against God's nature? I beleive they're the best kind to expect good things to come from. It's just like light shining brightest in the darkest places. Making the best things come from the worst is one of the things God does best.
I also agree that we are idiots and slow learners. Why do you think he waits for us to grow up.

white dove said:
It makes God a middle-man to those who do not revere God as Creator. Human beings have the propensity to fail to give recognition to the One who is "larger than themselves." Human beings can be very prideful, greedy and ignorant.

Yes, humans can be very prideful, greedy and ignorant. In the end God still loves us all. Our failings don't really matter if He wants something to happen.

On that note, I thank you for your opionion White Dove.

white dove · Jun 23, 2008

You needn't apologize for living life. That is a good thing. I, on the other hand, cannot sleep at this point; though my eyes are getting a little dozey...

gold_wings said:
Back to the issue...

Interesting thought. Then could it not be said that a sentient software might be formed in an engineer's mind by God? The engineer could just be there to serve the function of giving it form. Also, how do you know you were meant to be here (I ask this without meaning offence and only for the sake of asking)?

What purpose would this serve? I know it is obnoxious to answer a question with a question, but... perhaps I'm over-analyzing or under-analyzing this, I'm not too sure. I don't see any positive reasons (that of giving honor and glory to God) for creating such a lifeform. Would it? Would doing so cause millions upon millions of people to look up to the heavens in awe? I think not. Maybe I'm just a pessimistica or at this moment, perhaps I'm being crass enough to think that I can even equate my line of reasoning with God's - sacrilege. I just see evidence in the Bible where God has continuously put human beings in our place, lest we think too much of ourselves. If creation as you are suggesting took place, how could we not see ourselves as God's equal, or worse yet, better without a God.

Oh, and I feel as though I am "meant" to be here because I have plenty of reasons not to... yet, I remain. Maybe I'm just that resilient *shrug* I just prefer to see my existence as God's will.

This doesn't really prove why sentient machines can't be created by God. For all you know, the creation of sentient machines is part of furhtering "His Kingdom & glory".

How so?

God would be aware of it...God is aware of everything. So what if God is a puppet master and you're just another puppet in the collection, He'd still be God. (once again, I mean no offence) Are you afraid that somehow this diminishes you? (I'm also guilty of going off in tangents)

I really don't mind tangents at all (I'm a bit guilty of that, myself); as long as we get back on-track...

I don't know what you mean by "diminish"... maybe you intend to say my existence would somehow be viewed as less-valued by God? In that case, yes that would hurt. I believe in a caring God, one who seeks a relationship with every living soul. I already know that I am not God, though I have the Spirit's presence within me and in that way, God "breathes" his life through me. Blah, maybe that's too deep for such an hour...

I should be writing some poetry right now..

I agree, God creates in whatever manner He wishes.
Why can't God's creation method go against whats in the Bible? Everything God does doesn't have to conform with whats in the Bible. The Bible has only recorded what God has done in the past. For all you know he might use a new method of creation. He's creative you know (all puns intended).
Why would using fallen creatures for creating something else be against God's nature? I beleive they're the best kind to expect good things to come from. It's just like light shining brightest in the darkest places. Making the best things come from the worst is one of the things God does best.
I also agree that we are idiots and slow learners. Why do you think he waits for us to grow up.

I'm glad you agree; otherwise, we'd have a pretty hard time understanding each other.

You are right, God can choose to go outside of His own boundaries... but that would go against His characteristics. He can't contradict himself... at least, this is my understanding of God. If the Bible is God-breathed (again with the breathing...), God-inspired... then how can He go against what he'd spoken of in the Old and New T?

I like your last paragraph though... I actually love that sentiment. It does coincide with earlier readings in the Bible. Hmm.... you just blew my mind.

Yes, humans can be very prideful, greedy and ignorant. In the end God still loves us all. Our failings don't really matter if He wants something to happen.

On that note, I thank you for your opionion White Dove.

Touche (can't do the little accent mark on this computer... I'm horrible!!)

You're welcome, Goldie... I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your post.

(If the spelling's a little off I apologize!!!)

gold_wings · Jun 23, 2008

white dove said:
What purpose would this serve? I know it is obnoxious to answer a question with a question, but... perhaps I'm over-analyzing or under-analyzing this, I'm not too sure. I don't see any positive reasons (that of giving honor and glory to God) for creating such a lifeform. Would it? Would doing so cause millions upon millions of people to look up to the heavens in awe? I think not. Maybe I'm just a pessimistica or at this moment, perhaps I'm being crass enough to think that I can even equate my line of reasoning with God's - sacrilege. I just see evidence in the Bible where God has continuously put human beings in our place, lest we think too much of ourselves. If creation as you are suggesting took place, how could we not see ourselves as God's equal, or worse yet, better without a God.

I supose it would serve the simple purpose of creating and no creation would not cause people to stare at the heaven in awe. God never needed our adoration to begin with. I mean adoration is something nice to give to God but if you notice, all he has aksed for is a simple thank you for everything that is.
Yes, there would be fools who would think too much of themselves and in that case, God would simply "educate" them.

white dove said:
How so?

Well, its for the same reason that God created (still creates) numerous creatures. The more the merrier. For the record I don't think God stopped creating after the 7th day, he just took a break. He got back to work the day after that.

white dove said:
I don't know what you mean by "diminish"... maybe you intend to say my existence would somehow be viewed as less-valued by God? In that case, yes that would hurt. I believe in a caring God, one who seeks a relationship with every living soul.

I see what you're saying but don't you feel at times that thats a selfish way of looking at God. It sounds like the reason why you believe in God is because of the whole "caring" business and what you could gain from that relationship. Whatever happened to being simply there because God has need of you for a task. Mind you, if God wanted to hurt your feelings, its most likely to serve a greater good.
Let me tell you a story...
*Tangent WARNING*
This is something I heard from my mother...
There once was a woman who had a son whom she loved very much. This woman was very religious and was kind to everyone. One day her son died in a car accident. She went to Church and wept. In front of the altar, she asked God why He took her son away. There was no answer... She went and sat down to pray more but she eventually fell asleep from the fatigue of all the crying. In her dream, God showed her a trial scene. Her son was alive, all grown up and was just convicted of murdering five people. She felt ashamed at what her son had done. Then a voice told her "I took him to save him and those he would have killed". The End
I don't know where this story came from but it illustrates that God does things for the better.

white dove said:
You are right, God can choose to go outside of His own boundaries... but that would go against His characteristics. He can't contradict himself... at least, this is my understanding of God. If the Bible is God-breathed (again with the breathing...), God-inspired... then how can He go against what he'd spoken of in the Old and New T?

God's characteristics is infinite (its all part of being perfect), so theres really no character bounderies for God. As for the contradiction, its not possible even if it seems like that to us lowly creatures. The Bible on the other hand is agreeable that it was "God-inspired" but we must remember, it was man-written. As you have pointed out earlier, anything that we silly human beings get our grubby hands on tends to end up in a bad way (for the most part). Even if it was written by the most blessed saints and prophets...in the end they were humans complete with flaws and the lack of true understanding. Things most likey got lost in inspiration, translation, and understanding. For the record, the stuff in the Bible was what happened yesterday. God will do what He wants even if it goes against whats in the book. If the Bible recorded what God had said and thats all what people are looking at, then what about the stuff He's saying now? So, in a way, focusing on the Bible so much while ignoring the other stuff out there is practically being rude to the Boss. It amounts to saying "Thanks for what you said, I don't need to listen to what else you're going to say because I already have a record of what you said" (once again, I go off into a tangent). We need to find the words of God around us and within us.

So it may be that on the creation department, the creation of sentient machines could just be like the case of the Bible. It could be God-inspired, wrought by human hands, but doubted.

In closing, I may have ranted but this is what I have to offer. Please feel free to take it in, poke at it, question it, and if you can, make it dance a mazurka.

white dove · Jun 26, 2008

gold_wings said:
I supose it would serve the simple purpose of creating and no creation would not cause people to stare at the heaven in awe. God never needed our adoration to begin with. I mean adoration is something nice to give to God but if you notice, all he has aksed for is a simple thank you for everything that is.
Yes, there would be fools who would think too much of themselves and in that case, God would simply "educate" them.

I have been thinking more on the topic and I'll have to admit; moreso now than before can I see that this creation could actually serve as God's purpose for human beings. In the Bible, it does sort of forewarn of our demise - an end that was brought forth from our own actions, by our own hands (by our "weapons") God has given us a tremendous opportunity to do what is good and honorable with the gifts He's given us... and sometimes, we have done marvelous things with these gifts. Yet, there comes a time when we get so out of hand and start to believe in our own hype. We start to believe in our dangerously-inflated ego and go on a rampage, our own little God-trip -without saying "thank you" to God, b/c God is not necessary where we live. (I say "we" b/c I include myself as a member of the human race; I say "wee" when I'm excited)

Oh yes... I can definitely see God educating us.

gold_wings said:
I see what you're saying but don't you feel at times that thats a selfish way of looking at God. It sounds like the reason why you believe in God is because of the whole "caring" business and what you could gain from that relationship.

As Jodi Sweetin would say, "How rude!" You have a point, but are incorrect as to assume my reason for believing. I believe in God and in Christ because of a profound experience I had when I was about 20 years old. I had every reason not to believe, I had every chance to ignore God's calling on my life... yet, perhaps in my own stubbornness, I pressed on, later realizing that there was a reason for every single "coincidence," every chance encounter leading up to those moments of salvation that I can still recall with crystal clarity. God called me. God forced me to both knees and made me weep as I have never wept prior to that night. I wasn't knowingly looking for that kind of love, but sure enough God showed me: grace, mercy and forgiveness.

So yes, I completely believe in that "lovey dovey" sentimental love and believe that a personal relationship with the Creator falls in line with His characteristics, just as sovereignty, a firm right hand, "sword sharpening" words and actions are.

Please note, I am not really taking offense to your accusation - at all; I'm merely expanding on my own thoughts. I'm a bit sarcastic, but believe me, it's only in the most loving way possible.

gold_wings said:
Whatever happened to being simply there because God has need of you for a task. Mind you, if God wanted to hurt your feelings, its most likely to serve a greater good.

I have no problems with this logic.

Now let me tell you a story...

no, I'm just kidding.

gold_wings said:
God's characteristics is infinite (its all part of being perfect), so theres really no character bounderies for God.

But, being ambiguous is not one of God's characteristics. If we have supposed "truth" in the Bible, but not all of it is truth and only certain things can be picked and chosen out of there to suit our needs... wait, that's exactly what non-believers accuse us of.

In that case, how are we to choose just what is of God in the Bible, and what is human error? Just look at the apostles. How are the accounts different... why are they different?

How do we listen to this God-voice in our lives? How do we know what is of God?

gold_wings said:
Even if it was written by the most blessed saints and prophets...in the end they were humans complete with flaws and the lack of true understanding. Things most likey got lost in inspiration, translation, and understanding.

Why would God choose to allow fallible humans to record the events summarized in the Bible? If their understanding was faulty and did not fully grasp the truth....

gold_wings said:
For the record, the stuff in the Bible was what happened yesterday. God will do what He wants even if it goes against whats in the book. If the Bible recorded what God had said and thats all what people are looking at, then what about the stuff He's saying now?

Are you calling God inconsistant? I'm keepin' my eyes on you....

gold_wings said:
So it may be that on the creation department, the creation of sentient machines could just be like the case of the Bible. It could be God-inspired, wrought by human hands, but doubted.

Are you now equating God's Word with cyborgs?! For shame....

There. Did I add a nice, little dance for you?

gold_wings · Jun 26, 2008

Yes, the waltz was wonderful...now to the tango!

white dove said:
I believe in God and in Christ because of a profound experience I had when I was about 20 years old.

20 years old huh? Dare I ask your age? (just joking) I notice its around that age that some people come to a sort of crossroads. I myself came face to face with mine when I was 21. I sought, I found, and it was an experience.

white dove said:
Now let me tell you a story...

What!?! No story?

white dove said:
But, being ambiguous is not one of God's characteristics. If we have supposed "truth" in the Bible, but not all of it is truth and only certain things can be picked and chosen out of there to suit our needs... wait, that's exactly what non-believers accuse us of.

In that case, how are we to choose just what is of God in the Bible, and what is human error? Just look at the apostles. How are the accounts different... why are they different?

How do we listen to this God-voice in our lives? How do we know what is of God?

I'm not sure how to answer these points but they are certainly good ones...
You'll know that its God because part of you will recognize it even if you have no clue of what to looking for. It's part of that whole being a "child of God" business. As for listening to that inner voice, it takes time and its very different for each person. Mind you, the rewards could both be terribly wonderful and wonderfully terrible. (don't ask me to explain because its one of those "not to be discussed" stuff)

white dove said:
Why would God choose to allow fallible humans to record the events summarized in the Bible? If their understanding was faulty and did not fully grasp the truth....

Thanks for prooving my point. You misunderstood the statement or maybe i misrepresented the idea in the statement (all part of being human). The point is/was hamans can only understand so much and its not enough to capture a fraction of what Truely is and as for the recorded history...there are always atleast two sides to a story and we usually just get to hear one in the Bible. Another point is that they were chosen by God to "record" those events because they were the best that can be offered at the time. Compared to what we can offer now, humanity was more limitted then and just as harmful as today. For instance, if you had a coconut you wanted to open but you were limitted to a set of tools that inluded a rock, a flint crudely tied to a stick and made to resemble a hatchet, and possibly an even bigger rock that the previous one. Ideally, you'd open the coconut using a machete but theres none around. (at this point you'd probably say to borrow one from the neighbours or go to the hardware store) In the end, you'd probably pick the most efficient tool available.

white dove said:
Are you now equating God's Word with cyborgs?! For shame....

No silly. I'm equating Man's representation of God's Word with cyborgs. Then agian, its the best we can do without hearing the actual Word and dying instantly from hearing it.

white dove · Jun 26, 2008

gold_wings said:
20 years old huh? Dare I ask your age?...I notice its around that age that some people come to a sort of crossroads. I myself came face to face with mine when I was 21. I sought, I found, and it was an experience.

I'm not the type of woman to hide behind my age... and it is for that reason that I will not disclose it to you at this time.

Would you mind sharing your personal story with me? I'm always interested in hearing how other people came to their beliefs. I'll admit, I don't look at profiles too often (I have yet to look at yours)... I'd much rather "hear it from the horse's mouth." Much more interesting that way.

gold_wings said:
I'm not sure how to answer these points but they are certainly good ones...

Ay... you didn't walk right into the trap.. er, I mean discussion I set up for you. I wanted you to expand on the whole "discrepencies within the gospels" thing. (Yes, I do like those quotes) I think God allowed for such differences to show how different our perceptions can be... how individualistic our experiences are and how we can each take a situation and get varied lessons from them. Also, to perhaps prove how wrong we can get things?

gold_wings said:
You'll know that its God because part of you will recognize it even if you have no clue of what to looking for. It's part of that whole being a "child of God" business. As for listening to that inner voice, it takes time and its very different for each person. Mind you, the rewards could both be terribly wonderful and wonderfully terrible. (don't ask me to explain because its one of those "not to be discussed" stuff)

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. It's almost eerie sometimes to be on that same wavelength as God. Like, Wow, the Lord & I are that tight. Spooky.

gold_wings said:
Thanks for prooving my point. You misunderstood the statement or maybe i misrepresented the idea in the statement (all part of being human).

I misunderstood nothing! NEXT!!

gold_wings said:
The point is/was hamans can only understand so much and its not enough to capture a fraction of what Truely is and as for the recorded history...there are always atleast two sides to a story and we usually just get to hear one in the Bible.

Ah yes, the whole "we're too limited in our understanding to even grasp the skirt of the issue when it comes to Truth" thing. I have used this many a-time. And yes, I do believe this.

gold_wings said:
Another point is that they were chosen by God to "record" those events because they were the best that can be offered at the time.

Interesting... boy, you sure are full of the insults, eh?

gold_wings said:
No silly. I'm equating Man's representation of God's Word with cyborgs. Then agian, its the best we can do without hearing the actual Word and dying instantly from hearing it.

Or spontaneously combusting, due to heavy penetration of Truth to the brain. Yikes!!!

Oh, and the answer to the 1st question: 29 (and no, I have not started medicaid just yet)

May I guess your age?

*Starlight* · Jun 27, 2008

Personally, I think that (assuming that souls exist) if one day a sentient computer is created, with things like feelings and self-awareness, it would mean that the computer has a soul. But no matter if souls exist or not, I believe that such a computer shouldn't be treated any worse than a human.

gold_wings · Jun 27, 2008

Sure, you may guess at my age. It's probably on my profile but the finer details are probably blank because I'm guilty of being too lazy to fill out the rest.

Gosh, we really have strayed from the topic White Dove.

white dove said:
Would you mind sharing your personal story with me? I'm always interested in hearing how other people came to their beliefs. I'll admit, I don't look at profiles too often (I have yet to look at yours)... I'd much rather "hear it from the horse's mouth." Much more interesting that way.

I'd love to tell you what I can but maybe you could start a thread for it.

white dove said:
Ay... you didn't walk right into the trap.. er, I mean discussion I set up for you. I wanted you to expand on the whole "discrepencies within the gospels" thing. (Yes, I do like those quotes) I think God allowed for such differences to show how different our perceptions can be... how individualistic our experiences are and how we can each take a situation and get varied lessons from them. Also, to perhaps prove how wrong we can get things?

I agree our perceptions are different and they are subjective. Thats the problem with having a perception that's limitted to three dimensions (4 if you count time). We only see what we see. Oh I can't resist but tell a story at this point (notice how the Bible is also full of them).
I got this story from some textbook I had in highschool but it illustrates the point nicely. There were five people who were blindfolded and brought before an elephant (they weren't told it was an elephant) and placed in different positions around the elephant. Those people proceeded to touch the elephant in the places that was most accessible to them. One person touched the pointy end of the elephant's tusk and thought, its a dagger or the head of a spear. The person who was touching the large floppy ears thought that it was a large fan. Another person who touched the moving trunk of the elephant thought it was a snake. The person who was touching the elephants sides thought they had come up against a wall. The last person, who ended up behind the elephant...well lets just say they weren't happy.
Those five people perceived the same objects from different points of view and thought different things. They belived what they perceived but they didnt really perceive the whole thing in its entirety. I hope that clears things up a bit.

white dove said:
Ah yes, the whole "we're too limited in our understanding to even grasp the skirt of the issue when it comes to Truth" thing. I have used this many a-time. And yes, I do believe this.

Glad we agree...for more details, see the story above.

white dove said:
Interesting... boy, you sure are full of the insults, eh?

I don't mean them to be insults, i just have this incurable urge to bring down anyone who thunders from pulpits and show them the errors of their ways.

Wow, this thread has really gone off topic. For those of you who are viewing it, I'm sorry for the extremely large detour.

gold_wings · Jun 27, 2008

*Starlight* said:
Personally, I think that (assuming that souls exist) if one day a sentient computer is created, with things like feelings and self-awareness, it would mean that the computer has a soul. But no matter if souls exist or not, I believe that such a computer shouldn't be treated any worse than a human.

Thats a very enlightened thing to say and I agree.

SubtleArt · Jun 29, 2008

gold_wings said:
I'm curious as to what people think of the idea of intelligent machines...

In today's world many things exist that were once thought of as the stuff of science fiction and there may be more to come. Take computers as an example, they have become progressively more complicated and andvanced. What if the time came when they became complicated enough to fall under the catergory of "sentient being". How would the Church see them? Would they also be considered "children of God"? Would such a computer have a soul? Could God give a computer a soul (assuming it had none to begin with)?

What is it that makes a human any different at all than a very smart computer? Both were designed by a creator who had intentions for our existence.

Personally, I believe that the creation of such machines by human beings will spark a new era of spiritual meaning for all of humanity and artificial intelligence. Ultimately, since everything is the work of God, those machines would be under the grace of God, but, we humans would be the ones who physically do the work for God because we're nice. If I had to take a guess, there will probably be a computer heaven and all, which is a cool idea to me. Sounds fun.

Scrat · Jul 1, 2008

what makes a human different from a smart computer is that humans have souls that were given to them by god. if humans made very smart computers that seemed to be sentient, why would god be inclined to give THEM souls? god could give a soul any one of the machines that humans have created over the ages, and it would still work. i don't think that god would give one of our contraptions a soul just because it seems very sophisticated and lifelike TO US. to him, it would seem very simple and uncomplicated. then again, humans probably seem very simple and uncimplicated to him...

white dove · Jul 1, 2008

gold_wings said:
Sure, you may guess at my age. It's probably on my profile but the finer details are probably blank because I'm guilty of being too lazy to fill out the rest.

Too lazy? Questionable grammatical errors? Some depth to your thoughts? I'd say you're either an early 20's/early 40's man (or woman!)... but I'd probably stick you at 24yr old male. Switch those 2 numbers around and that's my 2nd guess.

gold_wings said:
Gosh, we really have strayed from the topic White Dove.

Pft, naw.

gold_wings said:
I'd love to tell you what I can but maybe you could start a thread for it..

Okay: http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47671683#post47671683

gold_wings said:
I agree our perceptions are different and they are subjective. Thats the problem with having a perception that's limitted to three dimensions (4 if you count time). We only see what we see. Oh I can't resist but tell a story at this point (notice how the Bible is also full of them).
I got this story from some textbook I had in highschool but it illustrates the point nicely. There were five people who were blindfolded and brought before an elephant (they weren't told it was an elephant) and placed in different positions around the elephant. Those people proceeded to touch the elephant in the places that was most accessible to them...

Wow, that's some story... Have you heard the one about the guy who went fishing for the first time? Well, this first-timer went out to the lake by himself to catch some trout (or stingray, I dunno, I'm not a fisherman). Anyway, the first catch he managed to pull up to his boat was an impressive little rainbow fish (let's just call him "bowie"). He thought to himself (the guy, not the fish), "Wow.. what a big catch! I'm awesome! I don't think there are many more fish any bigger than this bowie guy in this lake!" He was, needless to say, very impressed by the 1st fish he caught - it was about the size of a notebook (a spiraled, not a Mac). Then, he threw the line out again and caught an even bigger fish (let's just call him "Biggie") This one was just slightly larger than the 1st one but was much weightier (is that a word?). This time he thought, "Whoa.... this is the biggest fish in this lake, I bet! I shouldn't push my luck here..." He threw out his line once more and caught the biggest fish he'd ever seen - a catfish the size of a Buick. At this point, he curled over and had a mild panic attack. His last thoughts, "Wow, I was so wrong earlier on..."

Now the question is, Was he? He was correct in his statements in saying that those were the biggest fish he'd ever seen - though they were not the "biggest fish out there." His words were true at the time in some ways, though collectively, it made him look like a fool b/c in truth, he was wrong in his first assumptions. (It also made me look like a fool to name the fish, but whatever. I love animals. Does any of this make sense?

Bah... you can go on tangents in your own thread - it's allowed! At least... it should be (I just encouraged you along).

gold_wings · Jul 2, 2008

white dove said:
Too lazy? Questionable grammatical errors? Some depth to your thoughts? I'd say you're either an early 20's/early 40's man (or woman!)... but I'd probably stick you at 24yr old male. Switch those 2 numbers around and that's my 2nd guess.

Good guess. Would you believe I'm only 22? Also I'm one of those guys who looks younger than they actually are. They still ask for my ID at the local liquor store (btw, alcohol is legal at 19 here in Toronto). My buddies actually find my youthfulness very this amusing. Just they wait till the time comes, then they'll be wishing they looked younger.

white dove said:
Now the question is, Was he? He was correct in his statements in saying that those were the biggest fish he'd ever seen - though they were not the "biggest fish out there." His words were true at the time in some ways, though collectively, it made him look like a fool b/c in truth, he was wrong in his first assumptions. (It also made me look like a fool to name the fish, but whatever. I love animals. Does any of this make sense?

It's all subjective to me. Yes the latest fish the guy caught was the biggest in "his universe". He was both right and wrong at the same time.

RSD · Jul 2, 2008

What if we lived in a world where the top .02% (the elite and black nobility) through black magic and numbers and computers was able to control every single person on earth. Completely eliminating and total freedom that a person believes they have.

We all know that the Lord created the earth. But man has created the cities. So now, if it is the elite "chosen" few people that had the power over the layout of our cities, then would it not be possible for them to setup of cities as just big prisons for people? Or for the elite it would be considered a "play ground" and they control the "toys" which are human beings.

It's a global prison for everyone that is not privileged to be part of the rich Devil worshiping soulless scum.

Just a thought.

gold_wings · Jul 2, 2008

RSD said:
What if we lived in a world where the top .02% (the elite and black nobility) through black magic and numbers and computers was able to control every single person on earth. Completely eliminating and total freedom that a person believes they have.

We all know that the Lord created the earth. But man has created the cities. So now, if it is the elite "chosen" few people that had the power over the layout of our cities, then would it not be possible for them to setup of cities as just big prisons for people? Or for the elite it would be considered a "play ground" and they control the "toys" which are human beings.

It's a global prison for everyone that is not privileged to be part of the rich Devil worshiping soulless scum.

Just a thought.

I don't mean to sound rude but...what does that have to do with the topic?

Rational Thinker · Jul 3, 2008

Humans are nothing more than "intelligent machines". We just have yet to understand ourselves, but progressively, we are getting closer and closer to figuring out the "input/output" mechanism we refer to as our brains. I don't believe in the idea of a "soul", so in theory, with enough time on our hands, we could design something as sophisticated as a person, if not more. But even as it is today, we are able to tinker with ourselves, making ourselves more complicated and sophisticated.
I see no reason to make machines more complicated than ourselves. People see that as a threat to their own beliefs and existence. Humans feel a need to place themselves above others.

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