Literal and allegorical

Albion · Jul 7, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
Well they do quote scripture in that series to give support to what they are doing. You may not agree with their interpretation but it can and has been interpreted that way.

The idea was that it's rare to have a work of fiction cited in order to make any point about religious truth, that's all.

Albion · Jul 7, 2020

Tellyontellyon said:
But didn't Jesus say you would be judged as you judge others? Didn't he talk about the person who has no sin having the right to cast the first stone?

The Westbro Baptists quote the letter of some parts of the Bible but miss the spirit of what Jesus taught... The WBC are modern Pharisees.

Not to defend the Westboro people unnecessarily, but we could probably say what you just did about most of the 'respectable' churches and their people, too. Just look at the arguments we have here on CF.

Clizby WampusCat · Jul 7, 2020

Albion said:
The idea was that it's rare to have a work of fiction cited in order to make any point about religious truth, that's all.

The bible is what is quoted in that series. Can I ask you why you don't take this verse literally?

And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. Matt 5:30.

Albion · Jul 7, 2020

It's meant figuratively and we know that to be so from the wording itself.

For instance, no one's physical body goes to hell, although our spirits will live on in the afterlife.

Clizby WampusCat · Jul 7, 2020

Albion said:
It's meant figuratively and we know that to be so from the wording itself.

For instance, no one's physical body goes to hell, although our spirits will live on in the afterlife.

Jesus seems to disagree.

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Mt 10:28.

coffee4u · Jul 7, 2020

Tellyontellyon said:
A) Does reading scripture as allegorical rather than literal truth damage religion?

B) Does reading scripture as literal rather than allegorical truth damage religion?

Tashi Delek

Some is literal.
Some is prophecy, poetry, wisdom.

The danger lies when a person uses an outside source to determine what is literal or not rather than just using what the scripture is saying.

Pavel Mosko · Jul 7, 2020

Tellyontellyon said:
But didn't Jesus say you would be judged as you judge others? Didn't he talk about the person who has no sin having the right to cast the first stone?
The Westbro Baptists quote the letter of some parts of the Bible but miss the spirit of what Jesus taught... The WBC are modern Pharisees.

Yes there is something called Orthopraxy describing how you behave as a believer. It isn't enough to have the right beliefs aka orthodoxy, but how and why you do them also counts.

The Westboros are probably the most mean spirited people since the Spanish Inquisition.

coffee4u · Jul 7, 2020

Tellyontellyon said:
But didn't Jesus say you would be judged as you judge others? Didn't he talk about the person who has no sin having the right to cast the first stone?
The Westbro Baptists quote the letter of some parts of the Bible but miss the spirit of what Jesus taught... The WBC are modern Pharisees.

Yes, the only time we should be judging righteously is when someone is running for a position in the church or they are teaching others, because they will be in a position of authority.
For the most part we should focus on our own sins.

We should though be concerned if we see our brother stumble. If they are in a spiritual pit and we walk by pretending not to see we are also in the wrong. There is a difference.
Are you pointing something out of love because you are genuinely concerned or are you being petty or judgmental in a way that says 'I am better than you' It can be a fine line to walk.

It isn't one verse but a collection of verses each adding to it.
Matthew 7:3
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

Jude
22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire

Matthew 7:2

2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

John 7:24
Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

Sketcher · Jul 7, 2020

Tellyontellyon said:
A) Does reading scripture as allegorical rather than literal truth damage religion?

Depends on the passage.

Tellyontellyon said:
B) Does reading scripture as literal rather than allegorical truth damage religion?

Depends on the passage.

Tellyontellyon · Jul 8, 2020

Albion said:
Not to defend the Westboro people unnecessarily, but we could probably say what you just did about most of the 'respectable' churches and their people, too. Just look at the arguments we have here on CF.

And that is a shame...
Luke 18:9-14 ....!

Albion · Jul 8, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
Jesus seems to disagree.

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Mt 10:28.

I don't see any disagreement there.

Albion · Jul 8, 2020

Tellyontellyon said:
And that is a shame...
Luke 18:9-14 ....!

Well, people are people, you know. All humans are sinners and far gone from the perfection that is God's, whichever religion they may belong to.

The central feature of the Christian religion, however, is that God so loved his fallen creation that he made possible our salvation when we were not deserving of it and could not escape our sins on our own strength.

And, to be sure, when I say that plenty of people who belong to churches other than the Westboro Baptist Church fail to live up to the standards of the religion, it is also true that Christianity has produced some of the most loving, forgiving, and fair-minded people to be found anywhere.

Hawkins · Jul 8, 2020

Tellyontellyon said:
A) Does reading scripture as allegorical rather than literal truth damage religion?

B) Does reading scripture as literal rather than allegorical truth damage religion?

Tashi Delek

The Bible is written in the form of literal testimonies. It can be read that way if you want. It is so because this is the only way information contained can be intact when incapable humans convey them from generation to generation. From a secular stance, most ancient histories are lost and what we can read today are the form of myths. It is so because humans can only convey stories/myths. Any attempt to make it more specific than stories (history = his story) won't convey for long.

Of course, the Bible is not about how the incapable humans convey a piece of history. It's about how God conveys His message through the incapable humans, from the point long before the invention of paper till after. Humans became neat in recording histories ever since the invention of paper. Ancient scrolls are rare in today's world, we lost most of them even with the parts transplanted to their paper form counterpart. We had a huge break through in recording history ever since the invention of paper. Since then we can systematically write and keep documents. That's why Satan spotted the timing to have the Quran written (half joking though). It is much much more difficult to keep info intact and precise before that point. That's when the Bible was written (sometimes orally by training up the Jews to memorize since childhood).

So in a nutshell the literal form is for info to convey throughout history to keep the information intact in context. You can thus read a deeper meaning from the literal texts by first validating the literal meaning, and it's not without guidance. You don't arbitrarily read things out in a fabricating way. That's where you need a good church (a standard holder), other Christians (you need a mass who are close to God) and more importantly the Holy Spirit to read the deeper layer of meanings. In the lack of these guidance, it is safe to accept the literal meaning instead. It's more like an encryption process (to deal with data transmission), the contexts are correct enough but to some of them you can do a further decryption.

Clizby WampusCat · Jul 8, 2020

Albion said:
I don't see any disagreement there.

This is not an answer unless you explain why.

ViaCrucis · Jul 9, 2020

Tellyontellyon said:
A) Does reading scripture as allegorical rather than literal truth damage religion?

B) Does reading scripture as literal rather than allegorical truth damage religion?

Tashi Delek

The answer to both questions is yes.

The Bible is neither literal nor allegorical, the Bible is a collection of many different books, comprising a lot of different literary genres. Good reading of the Bible is about reading what is literal as literal, and reading what is not literal as not literal.

But there is no universal consensus among Christians over what is and isn't literal/non-literal in all cases.

Some Christians read the creation stories in Genesis literally.
Some Christians read the creation stories in Genesis non-literally.

Both ways of reading the text have bee, broadly speaking, acceptable in Christianity.

On the other hand, Jesus' life, death, and resurrection is read literally; to read those things non-literally is to deny the very fundamental teachings of the Christian faith.

And that's why not all things are equal here. Some parts of the Bible, in this sense, just matter more. Jesus' death and resurrection is more important to Christianity than whether or not the week of creation was a literal week or simply a literary device. That doesn't mean some Christians take the Bible more seriously than others; it just means that certain things do in fact matter more in Christianity than other things.

The doctrine of the Trinity is a lot more important than, say, how many archangels there are.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Jul 9, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
The only thing I changed really was my stance on homosexual marriage.

And on the opposite side, it is precisely from the Bible that I take my support of marriage equality, as Christ teaches to do unto others as I would have them do unto me, to love my neighbor as myself, with the Bible teaching that I should support the rights of the oppressed.

-CryptoLutheran

Tellyontellyon · Jul 10, 2020

I guess you could read all sorts of points of view into the Bible depending how important you see some passages, and how literal they are. Maybe it is just as important to be in good faith with oneself. Rather than twisting the meaning to suit a preference, but rather being honest with oneself about what feels like the truth. As I see it, treating the Bible like a book of laws is against the spirit of the new testament, which is more about forgiveness and not judging others. Each person must decide -honestly- for themselves what the Bible is really trying to get across.... even if that goes against tradition and the majority.

Clizby WampusCat · Jul 10, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
And on the opposite side, it is precisely from the Bible that I take my support of marriage equality, as Christ teaches to do unto others as I would have them do unto me, to love my neighbor as myself, with the Bible teaching that I should support the rights of the oppressed.

-CryptoLutheran

Do you believe gay marriage is supported by God? Does God think it is good?

ViaCrucis · Jul 10, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
Do you believe gay marriage is supported by God? Does God think it is good?

I'm not sure the forum allows me to answer that question.

-CryptoLutheran

Clizby WampusCat · Jul 10, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
I'm not sure the forum allows me to answer that question.

-CryptoLutheran

Ok, I won't assume your answer. I will say that the bible new and old testaments seems clear in condemning same sex acts (Lev. 18:22, 1 Cor 6:9-11) and Jesus says marriage is one man and one woman in Mark 10. Denominations that affirm LGBTQ people are great and I will support them, but I don't think they are following what the bible says.

Literal and allegorical

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