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a post by Alan Smithee
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shinbits said:
So if the universe was created, the light could've taken only a few weeks to reach, as it moved away from earth, with the spreading of the galaxy.

I thought you said there would be no changes between what we observe now and during the Creation with regard to physics. But you want to suggest that shortly after Creation the visible Univserse (not just the galaxy, we can see several other galaxies with the bare eye - plus if they were all "light weeks" away we would have seen many more) were all compressed down to be "light weeks away"?

Also, you keep suggesting this flashlight anaology. How is a star supposed to move away from the Earth either at, or faster than the speed of light in order to move millions of light years away in 6,000 years?
 
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notto

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shinbits said:
That's only if the light is just reaching us. But like in the example of the "flashlight", the light could have always been hitting us, starting from when it was first created, and continued moving back.

You are completely wrong and don't even understand why. You are a great creationist.

If the light that was hitting us was emitted when the star was closer as you suggest, the star would LOOK CLOSER THAN IT DOES NOW, just like the flashlight would.

You need to take a few physics classes and get back to us.
 
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Donkeytron

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Dannager said:
Could you please identify for us the changes that need to be made to currently existing theory so that we can recalculate our measurements based on your new proposal?

yes. I am always excited by the actual astrophysicist vs YEC on the subject of astrophysics threads.
 
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devotee

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Thnk you all for participating in this debate. This was the crunch for me no longer identifying myself as a creationist. As Gould and others have commented, science and religion are two differnt constructs, and I have a view of evolution that does not conflict with my beliefs, however I do not take things so literally now.

It makes sense to me that the universe is billions of years old, but I am basing this belief on scientific assumptions. Its not about being right, I just want to be able to support my argument with a logical argument. I think I need to take an online course in physics.

The way we perceive the world shapes our interactions with it.
 
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devotee

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dad said:
You don't understand material on this topic. Guess you think you are clever being short with people, and not backing up your contentions. It matters not, what surprises me is a christian having such strong delusion.
Please don't hush, I appreciate your viewpoint.

We are dealing with assumptions, but empirical science requires that a set of assumptions be met before a conclusion is drawn, and that the conclusion be falsifiable. What I'm interested in are the what the set of assumptions are that provide scientists with the confidence that what is seen in a telescope is billions of light years away.
 
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devotee

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KerrMetric said:
But the light isn't - it is still coming towards us and being stretched in the process hence the cosmological redshift.

This is all handled in the calculations, it isn't forgotten about.
Could you explain more about redshift and the doppler effect?

Is part of it that the frequency increases the closer an object is to earth?
 
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devotee

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If the stars formed coveally is this why the theory of the strecthing of the universe makes sense?
 
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devotee

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KerrMetric said:
But the light isn't - it is still coming towards us and being stretched in the process hence the cosmological redshift.

This is all handled in the calculations, it isn't forgotten about.
If light is being stretched does it affect the speed that it travels at? I thought that the speed of light was constant.
 
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devotee

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How does this provide us with a lower limit?
 
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devotee

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How can we be confident about that at least age?
 
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Dal M.

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devotee said:
How can we be confident about that at least age?

Because the speed of light in a vacuum is a constant. If we see an object fifty light years away, then it must be at least fifty years old, or else the light wouldn't have had the time to reach us yet. If we see an object fifty thousand light years away, then it must be at least fifty thousand years old.

The Hubble telescope has spotted galaxies twelve billion light years away.
 
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dad

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The main assumption underlying all, including light, and decay, is that all things were the same as they are now in the past, -constant. Also, that things are constant all through the universe as well at the moment, and will be in the future.
If all things were the same in the past, I am afraid that the timeframe of the bible seems wrong, but I am confident things were different in a big way. So different that it boggles the mind, as bible believers will see that the future will be when this temporary universe passes away. Of course the fabric of the universe, and matter must be totally different in a future where earth is not going to crash into anything, or decay away like the sun in present conditions.
 
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dad

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All that to say you can't support the claims, OK. The stars are assumed old if they are a certain size, basically, and the big bang is assumed, rather than creation. (Can't have both and the bible cause the earth was made before the stars, not vica versa, regardless of time arguements). No wonder proof isn't in your vocabulary!
 
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dad

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Only assuming that it was always the same light, and speed, and laws, of course. Assumptions can be funny things.
 
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Physics_guy

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Shinbits, you are missing something rather obvious in your example. Even if you were somehow able to magically move at millions of times the speed of light backwards away from the Earth, the photons leaving your flashlight can't. Therefore, there wouldn't be a continuous stream hitting the earth if you recessed at greater than the speed of light, because those photons cannot move faster than 3 million m/s (you can't either, but assuming your hypothetical for a second we will allow it).

Also, you said that light was good at measuring distance, but not age. This is fundamentally wrong. It isn't great at measuring either actually. We can however know how old light is by knowing how far it has traveled and we can estimate distances by other methods (parallax measurement for example).
 
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KerrMetric

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Lets be clear here - if God did this in some supernatural manner that violated standard physics then this question is meaningless.

But if you want stars to form a few thousand years ago "naturally" then they would not be in thermal equilibrium. They would then have to adjust their structure in accord to thermodynamics and fluid dynamics. This is straightforward to calculate. I even gave the approx. formula earlier. For the Sun this thermal adjustment timescale is about 10 million years or so.

Now the Sun appears as a body in hydrostatic, thermal and nuclear equilibrium. Thus it appears as it should if it is very old. The only way you could have made it a few thousand years ago and have it appear as it does is to do it all outside of physics (supernaturally.)

But this means God created the stars to appear old but in your reality they are not. This is the fake history problem.




Why didn't he do it last Thursday? This is terrible theology the creating of false hstories which deceive us. That is not God but the work of the devil.


A universe only a few thousand years old wouldn't a change in the current physics of stars.

Poorly written so I don't get the question.




How can the light move backwards? You also are implying a known incorrect expansion rate.




You cannot measure how "old" light is. You measure the distance by some other method and then infer how long ago the light was emitted.

You are hopelessly confused here. When you see the light on the ground it isn't the same photons stuck on the ground which is what you seem to be saying. This is just bizarre.



So if the universe was created, the light could've taken only a few weeks to reach, as it moved away from earth, with the spreading of the galaxy.

The expansion really oly takes affect on large length scales. The galaxy is a gravitationally bound system and effectively does not take part in the expansion within itself. This is a common misconception.

And if earth is only a few thousand years old, and it only took, say a few weeks for the light to initially reach it, that means that the stars would only be a few thousand years old also.

No it doesn't. Again you are really really confused here.




No it doesn't. Your question is about as sensible as asking what is the colour of smell.
 
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KerrMetric

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devotee said:
Could you explain more about redshift and the doppler effect?

Is part of it that the frequency increases the closer an object is to earth?

Please Google this. There are many websites with diagrams that explain this better than I can write a sentence or two about it.

Your frequency question makes no sense.
 
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