Liberal Back-Slider??

Karl - Liberal Backslider · Dec 22, 2004

No, it means that Treasure the Questions was pretty sure you have no concept of irony, and that your responses have confirmed that.

ahab · Dec 22, 2004

Irony I understand is a sort of humour, ridicule or light sarcasm contary to the expected.
(or a description of something made of iron )
Its liberal backslider that I dont get.

Karl - Liberal Backslider · Dec 22, 2004

Let's try to be clear.

Martyn wrote songs about the things that mattered to him.

Some Random Woman wrote to him and told him he was a "liberal backslider".

So, in a spirit of irony, he wrote a song about the things that matter to him, saying that if that makes him a "liberal backslider", then a "liberal backslider" he is.

It's not that he thinks he is a liberal backslider. It is taking the thoughtless insult that was thrown at him and turning it into a badge of honour.

I suggest you backtrack along the thread and read the lyrics. You might then understand.

ahab · Dec 22, 2004

Hi Karl Liberal Backslider,

No, the OP asked what a liberal backslider is. I know what a backslider is but a liberal backslider isnt just Martyn Josephs song is it?

As to the song, I hope the tune is good.

Karl - Liberal Backslider · Dec 22, 2004

Since the only mention of the phrase I've ever seen on CF is my username, which is taken from the song, and one or two references to the song, I not sure the concept really exists outside the song for us here.

ahab · Dec 22, 2004

Hi Karl Liberal Backslider,

Ok thanks that does answer my question. I guess 'Liberal Backslider' is still preferable to 'Ahab', who was probably the king who offended God the most.

Mustaphile · Dec 22, 2004

666

Sorry, Ahab. I coudn't resist.

Humour...arf arf.
/me slaps himself with a large frozen rainbow trout
boink boink boink OUCH!
/me falls over
Who did that?

apenman · Dec 22, 2004

ahab said:
Hi apenman,

Actually, although I really wanted to relay the message of a new covenant rather than get broiled down with the idea of the law, I absolutely concede to your post, what I wrote; as to the law of Christ I was incorrect in the terms I wrote.

However, Jesus is quite clear in many places in the scripture that we are to help the poor, heal the sick, love one another etc, but how do you reconcile eternal life and eternal death in Matt 25 31- with "mercy triumphs over judgment". With Matt 25 I still find the contradiction.

Look at the judgment of the sheep, they fed him, clothed him, took him in, etc, etc., it's "ALL" mercy, that is, mercy, compassion, love, etc, it's all the same. So, for the sheep mercy did triumph over judgment. They showed mercy to those in need, Christ said that because they did it to others, they had done it to him, and so they fulfilled the law of Christ, and were saved. I don't see any contradiction at all. The sheep are judged by the law that gives freedom, they are found to have fulfilled that law by Christ, and so they are saved.

ahab · Dec 22, 2004

Hi Mustaphile

DOH! 666

ahab · Dec 22, 2004

Hi apenman,

However, Jesus is quite clear in many places in the scripture that we are to help the poor, heal the sick, love one another etc, but how do you reconcile eternal life and eternal death in Matt 25 31- with "mercy triumphs over judgment". With Matt 25 I still find the contradiction.

Look at the judgment of the sheep, they fed him, clothed him, took him in, etc, etc., it's "ALL" mercy, that is, mercy, compassion, love, etc, it's all the same. So, for the sheep mercy did triumph over judgment. They showed mercy to those in need, Christ said that because they did it to others, they had done it to him, and so they fulfilled the law of Christ, and were saved. I don't see any contradiction at all. The sheep are judged by the law that gives freedom, they are found to have fulfilled that law by Christ, and so they are saved.

Yes I realise that the sheep receive mercy, thats obvious, but judgement to eternal death triumphs over mercy for the goats. Why? Because the goats say they believe. No where else in NT scripture can I find how we help the poor being dpendent on avoiding eternal death.

apenman · Dec 22, 2004

ahab said:
Hi apenman,

However, Jesus is quite clear in many places in the scripture that we are to help the poor, heal the sick, love one another etc, but how do you reconcile eternal life and eternal death in Matt 25 31- with "mercy triumphs over judgment". With Matt 25 I still find the contradiction.

Yes I realise that the sheep receive mercy, thats obvious, but judgement to eternal death triumphs over mercy for the goats. Why? Because the goats say they believe. No where else in NT scripture can I find how we help the poor being dpendent on avoiding eternal death.

There are quite a few places in the NT where we find support for the sheep and the goats, and for "mercy triumphs over judgment".

Matthew 7:16-23, "By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" (NIV)

In the sheep and the goats we see exactly what Christ is saying above, "Thus, by thier fruit you will recognize them." So, in the sheep and the goats, the sheep are separated from the goats on the basis of their fruit, which is the same as works.

Matthew 12:7, "If you had known what these words mean, `I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent." (NIV)

If we look at the good samaritan we will see that the person who fulfilled the law of Christ was the person who had "mercy" on the man who had been injured. So, above it states, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice", and there are other proof-texts that can also be quoted, but I don't have time at the moment. The point is that the "eleos" mercy is consistant throughout the NT.

ahab · Dec 22, 2004

Hi again apenman,

Yes, yes I agree with all that 100%. I also believe that to believe in Jesus means to live out that faith. but it doesnt address mercy over judgment for the goats. You do believe in eternal death dont you?

Inside Edge · Dec 22, 2004

I'll take a crack at this.

1. Because Martyn's views and opinions were different from some woman's, she saw fit to pass judgement on his musings and call him a "liberal backslider." Implicit in this term was that he held "liberal" views on Christianity; and therefore, at least in part, was by default a "backslider."

2. The songwriter then embraced the term, because he felt that whatever he was doing to make some mean, judgemental person call him that name was fine by him.

Ahab, if I called someone a "conservative blockhead" because of their views and/or opinions, they might be inclined to reply, "Well, if what I said and believe warrants me being called a conservative blockhead, then so be it, that's what I am."

apenman · Dec 22, 2004

ahab said:
Hi again apenman,

Yes, yes I agree with all that 100%. I also believe that to believe in Jesus means to live out that faith. but it doesn’t address mercy over judgment for the goats. You do believe in eternal death don’t you?

Oh, I didn't understand what you were saying. Mercy triumphs over judgment for the sheep, not for the goats. In the sheep and the goats, the goats are condmened because they "didn't" have mercy. So, "mercy triumphs over judgment" for those who have mercy, not for those who don't. Look again at the verse:

James 2:12-13, "Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!" (NIV)

So, James is saying that "judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful (the goats). Mercy triumphs over judgment! (for the sheep who had mercy).

So, for those whom Christ judges to have fulfilled the law of Christ, mercy triumphs over judgment, which is the sheep, and for those whom Christ judges did not fulfill the law of Christ, which is the goats, they had no mercy, so mercy does not triumph over judgment.

Does that better clarify what I am saying?? I was never saying that mercy triumphs over judgment for both the sheep and the goats, only the sheep.

ahab · Dec 23, 2004

Hi apenman,

Yes I know what the verses say. The goats are condemned to eternal death. The question I have is why does this passage seem to condemn on works when the main message of the NT scripture is that we are saved by believing in Jesus, our reward in heaven is for the works we do.

I think this is part of the whole package that to believe in Jesus is to become more like Him manifested in our lives. I think this passage could be about Jesus warning that simply to sit back and assume salvation is not what we were saved for, but we are being saved. Also the feeding of hungry and thirsty is both materially and spiritually. Jesus sent the disciples out without anything, to preach the gospel, and the condemnation was on the towns who didnt accept their message, I think James refocuses us on the fact that it isnt just preaching the message but also helping the poor and needy in material terms as it always was supposed to be in the OT covenants, and of course to live Holy lives free from sin James 1:27

However, I still find this shocking warning very much less mercy over judgment on account of the goats as though we have a target to meet. If its 50/50 on mercy for the sheep and 50/50 on judgment on the goats, IMO therefore Jesus simply desires mercy over judgment rather than saying there will be mercy over judgment. Unless this passage has far more to it.

What do you think?

Polycarp1 · Dec 23, 2004

ahab said:
Hi apenman,

Yes I know what the verses say. The goats are condemned to eternal death. The question I have is why does this passage seem to condemn on works when the main message of the NT scripture is that we are saved by believing in Jesus, our reward in heaven is for the works we do.

I think this is part of the whole package that to believe in Jesus is to become more like Him manifested in our lives. I think this passage could be about Jesus warning that simply to sit back and assume salvation is not what we were saved for, but we are being saved. Also the feeding of hungry and thirsty is both materially and spiritually. Jesus sent the disciples out without anything, to preach the gospel, and the condemnation was on the towns who didnt accept their message, I think James refocuses us on the fact that it isnt just preaching the message but also helping the poor and needy in material terms as it always was supposed to be in the OT covenants, and of course to live Holy lives free from sin James 1:27

However, I still find this shocking warning very much less mercy over judgment on account of the goats as though we have a target to meet. If its 50/50 on mercy for the sheep and 50/50 on judgment on the goats, IMO therefore Jesus simply desires mercy over judgment rather than saying there will be mercy over judgment. Unless this passage has far more to it.

What do you think?

You're coming at this from an evangelical perspective that doesn't set well with me, Ahab, but I think that in looking to James to clarify it, you have hit on precisely the right answer.

We are saved by the grace of God, freely given, not by anything whatsoever that we ourselves can do.
We accept this salvation by faith in Christ, by placing our trust in His lovingkindness.
We live out our faith by the doing of His Will in our lives, recognizing our own weakness and dependence on His help.
We are freed from judgment by this adoption into His family, sons and daughters of God and brothers and sisters of Christ by adoption and grace (Paul says as much, though you have to combine his words from a couple of epistles to get there). But we are obliged to do His will in the manner exemplified in the parables and commanded in the Summary of the Law -- because that's what a lively faith calls for.

Don't try to pin down the sheep and goats any more clearly than what our Lord says -- the sheep are those who do His Will, treating others as if they were Him; the goats are those who do not. "Be ye doers of the Word, and not hearers only" is, I think, relevant to the discussion.

Charlie V · Dec 23, 2004

Polycarp1 said:
You're coming at this from an evangelical perspective that doesn't set well with me, Ahab, but I think that in looking to James to clarify it, you have hit on precisely the right answer.

We are saved by the grace of God, freely given, not by anything whatsoever that we ourselves can do.

We accept this salvation by faith in Christ, by placing our trust in His lovingkindness.

The universal salvation of mankind is the solution to the contradiction here.

Acceptance, or "placing our trust in His loving kindness" is a "thing we ourselves can do."

If it is by grace, freely given--it isn't by "placing our trust in his loving kindness." Lest we brag of our great deed of acceptance, lest we brag of our great ability in placing trust.

Charlie

ahab · Dec 23, 2004

Hi PolyCarp1

You're coming at this from an evangelical perspective that doesn't set well with me, Ahab, but I think that in looking to James to clarify it, you have hit on precisely the right answer.

Not really. There are various interpretations as I have outlined on this forum. Are open to various interpretations.

I do agree 100% with your description of salvation by grace and freely, but those who call Him Lord surely have that grace freely given? I think this is about having believed we are not to simply say Lord I love you but do it as you quite rightly say. Jesus says if we love Him we will obey all He commands.

Don't try to pin down the sheep and goats any more clearly than what our Lord says -- the sheep are those who do His Will, treating others as if they were Him; the goats are those who do not. "Be ye doers of the Word, and not hearers only" is, I think, relevant to the discussion.

Except that is only part of the word and must therefore be the reason for the separation.
Personally to make sense of this without a contradiction I would say the criteria is These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me" Matt 15:8

ahab · Dec 23, 2004

Hi Charlie V,

Universalism is the solution to the contradiction here

How? If this Is this to believers then some are in for eternal death and if it is for all people then some are in for eternal death. Eternal death is one of the sure things about it.

Acceptance, or "placing our trust in His loving kindness" is a "thing we ourselves can do."

If it is by grace, freely given--it isn't by "placing our trust in his loving kindness." Lest we brag of our great deed of acceptance, lest we brag of our great ability in placing trust.

Ah, now that appeals to me in that we cant receive the forgiveness Jesus gave us on the cross unless we believe it, and we do boast in Jesus Christ, Gal 6, but Eph 2 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast

It still doesnt explain the apparent contradiction and who are the goats

Polycarp1 · Dec 23, 2004

ahab said:
Hi PolyCarp1

Not really. There are various interpretations as I have outlined on this forum. Are open to various interpretations.

I do agree 100% with your description of salvation by grace and freely, but those who call Him Lord surely have that grace freely given? I think this is about having believed we are not to simply say Lord I love you but do it as you quite rightly say. Jesus says if we love Him we will obey all He commands. Except that is only part of the word and must therefore be the reason for the separation.

Personally to make sense of this without a contradiction I would say the criteria is These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me" Matt 15:8

I'm not looking for perfect agreement -- each of us serves Him as we see proper and feel called to do, and that's fine by me. I agree with your last paragraph -- and I want to say that it's been a blessing today to have this thread in which we can come to some mutual understanding of each other's perspective, and find things on which to agree. May you have a blessed Christmas, brother!

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