Liberal Back-Slider??

ahab · Dec 21, 2004

Yes I agree that what Jesus says about the sheep and the goats in Matt 25 is about judgement of Christ, but I believe along with many that this is about judgement between the sheep who preach and live the gospel and the goats who reject the messengers (us). Otherwise this makes salvation based on works and elsewhere Jesus says that we are saved by believing, and we will receive our reward for what we do. This is about salvation after all, eternal life or eternal death.
To look after the poor was suppsoed to be one of the tasks of the Jews and the religious leaders. However, the early church soon made sure that the spread of the gospel was not hindered by feeding the poor Acts 6.

ahab · Dec 21, 2004

So I would say that a backslider is any of us who have begun to follow Jesus in a certain way and then stopped doing that, whether it be in areas we honour God in our personal lives such as not swearing and not looking at porn for example, where we have stopped spreading of the gospel, or where we have stopped helping the poor. In short where we haev stopped living for Jesus in an aspect and starting living the way we feel we want to.
I dont really understand how a liberal backslider differs from that though.

Mustaphile · Dec 21, 2004

I dont really understand how a liberal backslider differs from that though.

You have to acquire a sense of humour first, and then you have to be in the 'liberal backsliders' shoes. Barring that your not going to see the irony.

Have you been called a liberal backslider?

apenman · Dec 21, 2004

ahab said:
Yes I agree that what Jesus says about the sheep and the goats in Matt 25 is about judgement of Christ, but I believe along with many that this is about judgement between the sheep who preach and live the gospel and the goats who reject the messengers (us). Otherwise this makes salvation based on works and elsewhere Jesus says that we are saved by believing, and we will receive our reward for what we do. This is about salvation after all, eternal life or eternal death.
To look after the poor was suppsoed to be one of the tasks of the Jews and the religious leaders. However, the early church soon made sure that the spread of the gospel was not hindered by feeding the poor Acts 6.

James 2:12-13, "Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!" (NIV)

The sheep and the goats is about being "judged by the law that gives freedom". It has nothing to do with preaching and living the gospel, at least, not in a religious manner. It has everything to do with fulfilling the law of Christ, which is "love one another". The works are the evidence of the faith, but it is the faith that saves, not the works. However, if the works aren't there, then the faith isn't there either.

ahab · Dec 21, 2004

Hi apenman,

The sheep and the goats is widely thought to be about the judgment and treatment of the messengers will be, also fairly popular is the idea that it is about how the nations treat Israel. However the scriptures often deal with several things at the same time.

It has everything to do with fulfilling the law of Christ, which is "love one another". The works are the evidence of the faith, but it is the faith that saves, not the works. However, if the works aren't there, then the faith isn't there either.

Well yes we live by faith, but it is Jesus that fulfills the law and the prophets, you make it sound like love had come to fulfill it, but God is Love. The problem remains that this passage seems to base salvation on works, so perhaps it is about making sure of our salvation by working out our salvation. We are saved to work for the Kingdom and that means preaching the gospel and helping the poor.

praying · Dec 21, 2004

Mustaphile said:
You have to acquire a sense of humour first, and then you have to be in the 'liberal backsliders' shoes. Barring that your not going to see the irony.

Have you been called a liberal backslider?

I am firmly convinced that in addition to scripture lessons in Sunday School we need to add Lessons in Humor for the Fundmentalist Christian 101 . So many seem to lack a sense of humor.

Who could teach it?

( I nominate tulc, parenthetically speaking )

apenman · Dec 21, 2004

ahab said:
The sheep and the goats is widely thought to be about the judgment and treatment of the messengers will be, also fairly popular is the idea that it is about how the nations treat Israel. However the scriptures often deal with several things at the same time.

This is what I used to believe when I did not understand the sheep and the goats.

The sheep and the goats is the judgment of Christ, under the law of christ, described in his own words, it is the judgment of the world.

ahab said:
Well yes we live by faith, but it is Jesus that fulfills the law and the prophets, you make it sound like love had come to fulfill it, but God is Love. The problem remains that this passage seems to base salvation on works, so perhaps it is about making sure of our salvation by working out our salvation. We are saved to work for the Kingdom and that means preaching the gospel and helping the poor.

Christ fulfills the law and the prophets, then establishes the law of christ, which is a new law, and is the law of the new covenant. This is the law that James is speaking of when he talks about being "judged by the law that gives freedom".

Faith & works go hand in hand:

James 2:20-26
20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. (NIV)

tulc · Dec 21, 2004

Who could teach it?

( I nominate tulc, parenthetically speaking )

Aww shucks!
tulc(how's my sista from anotha motha doing this fine day?)

praying · Dec 21, 2004

I am fine tulc and you? How is Mrs tulc?

tulc · Dec 21, 2004

I am fine tulc and you? How is Mrs tulc?

I'm doing great! I finished my Christmas shopping Sunday, everything is wrapped and waiting! Mrs.tulc is leading a prayer group at a Hospital she vollenteers at and should be home in a couple of hours!
tulcsigh: misses her when she's gone, even when it's just for a couple of hours!)

praying · Dec 21, 2004

Aww I think that is sweet!

I am hopefully finishing shopping tomorrow.

Treasure the Questions · Dec 21, 2004

Ahab have you read the opening post and my subsequent posts? I thought I'd made it pretty plain when I said,

There is a Welsh singer/song writer called Martyn Joseph who started his singing career with the support of the evangelical music industry. Then he visited the slums of Bangkok in Thailand and came away with a different point of view. He wanted to 'change your world' and started to ask why the poor weren't fed. Some evangelicals didn't like this and wrote him letters calling him a liberal and a backslider, which hurt him and made him angry. Songwriting is his therapy, so he let his hurt and anger out in this song.

and subsequently, in response to apenman, who seems to have understood now,

On the contrary a "liberal backslider" is someone whose thoelogy is more liberal than a conservative evangelical's and takes their faith seriously. They are not a backslider, but some of a more fundamentalist persuasion might see them that way.

Mustaphile made a pertinent observation:

You have to acquire a sense of humour first, and then you have to be in the 'liberal backsliders' shoes. Barring that your not going to see the irony.

and tulc's sig is very illuminating:

When I was a conservative, I took Jesus' teaching on hell to be literal. But I took His teaching on selling everything I own in order to follow Him to be figurative.

If you still don't understand or have further problems I refer you back to what Mustaphile said.

Happy Christmas everyone - I don't expect to visit here much over the holiday, let alone post.

Karin

ahab · Dec 21, 2004

Hi apenman,

This is what I used to believe when I did not understand the sheep and the goats.
The sheep and the goats is the judgment of Christ, under the law of christ, described in his own words, it is the judgment of the world.

Yes I know that but I used to believe it was simply about helping the poor but now I see that it has several possibilities. However it says nothing about a law of Christ.

Christ fulfills the law and the prophets, then establishes the law of christ, which is a new law, and is the law of the new covenant. This is the law that James is speaking of when he talks about being "judged by the law that gives freedom".
Faith & works go hand in hand:

Not exactly, where does it say that? There is a new covenant but yes faith without works is dead, but works without faith is also useless, Jesus says apart from Him we can do nothing. What faith through works is to preach the gospel, live it, act it out and manifest it in helping the poor.

ahab · Dec 21, 2004

On the contrary a "liberal backslider" is someone whose thoelogy is more liberal than a conservative evangelical's and takes their faith seriously. They are not a backslider, but some of a more fundamentalist persuasion might see them that way.

No surely a liberal is someone whose theology is different from a conservative or orthodox or evangelical Christian, a backslider must be someone who dosnt take their faith seriously.

Treasure the Questions · Dec 21, 2004

Ahab, how can I make it any clearer to you? Martyn started asking things like "why are there so many starving people in the world and why aren't they being fed" in his songs, instead of just singing "Jesus is great, believe in him and all your troubles will just disappear". People wrote abusive letters and at least one person called him a liberal backslider. Sure they meant it the way you interpret liberal and backslider, but Martyn turned it round to mean something quite different, which is why the term means what I said it means. It is ironic and tongue in cheek and a defiant cry from those who believe walking the walk is more important than talking the talk.

That really is my final response to you. Either you can't or won't understand if you still don't get it.

apenman · Dec 21, 2004

ahab said:
Hi apenman,

Yes I know that but I used to believe it was simply about helping the poor but now I see that it has several possibilities. However it says nothing about a law of Christ. Not exactly, where does it say that?

The book of Hebrews talks about the change of the priesthod that occurred, from the priesthood of Aaron, to the priesthood of Christ. It also talks about the change that occurred in the law:

Hebrews 7:12, "For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law." (NIV)

Now, Hebrews does talk about the fact that there is no longer a need for sacrifices because the one sacrifice made by Christ was enough, so no more are needed. However, some people fail to understand that the change in the law, was the change from the law of Moses, to the law of Christ. And, of course we can see the introduction of this new law in the words of Christ:

John 13:34,"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." (NIV)

Now, the change in the law is recongized by Paul:

1 Corinthians 9:21, "(though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law)" (NIV)

Here is another reference to the law of Christ:

Galatians 6:2, "Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ." (NIV)

So, we see that we are under Christ's law, which is the law of the new covenant, and this is how it is described by James:

James 2:12-13, "Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!" (NIV)

So, here we see that we are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, and that under this law "mercy triumphs over judgment".

Now, this is the "EXACT" judgment that we see in the sheep and the goats, which is the judgment of Christ, described in his own words.

ahab · Dec 22, 2004

Hi apenman,

Actually, although I really wanted to relay the message of a new covenant rather than get broiled down with the idea of the law, I absolutely concede to your post, what I wrote; as to the law of Christ I was incorrect in the terms I wrote.

However, Jesus is quite clear in many places in the scripture that we are to help the poor, heal the sick, love one another etc, but how do you reconcile eternal life and eternal death in Matt 25 31- with "mercy triumphs over judgment". With Matt 25 I still find the contradiction.

ahab · Dec 22, 2004

Hi Treasure the Questions,

We are told that the Kingdom of God is not like the Kingdom of the world. We see that in the Kingdom of God or the will and purpose of God, there are no tears, there is no sufferring and no death, no starvation. We can see that in the world there is. So when you write Martyn wants to change the world I think that should be God wants to.

instead of just singing "Jesus is great, believe in him and all your troubles will just disappear".

You see as we saw recently in the program God is Black, in general, its the churches that are singing this that are the effective ones in social action. Many of us are called around the world to overcome by the blood of the lamb, His testimony and not to love our lives so much as to shrink back from death. We can overcome if we truly believe; do you not receive anything from God when when you worship Him?

To those who think a Christian shouldn't go into a pub or bar, even if they don't drink, should avoid the cinema and so on, and those who are far more worried about personal morality and impeccable doctrine than social justice, we are probably seen as backsliders

We are in the world but not of it. We are not to be apart from the people of the world but we are called to be set apart from the sin the world does. How we conduct every aspect of our lives is important as we see so much of the NT about it. James is where the rubber hits the road as far as faith in action is concerned, and in blunt rabbianic 'charaz', but note even James writes 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

A backslider seems to someone who doesnt mind being polluted by the world, and a liberal backslider seems to be one who has decided it doesnt matter.

Treasure the Questions · Dec 22, 2004

Q.E.D.

ahab · Dec 22, 2004

Hi Treasure the Questions,

Does that QED mean agreement with my last post then, or what?

God Bless

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