Let's Talk About Hell

godisreal36 · Jan 31, 2011

I will need to see a doctor, I'm trying to drag myself there, i keep praying for the Lord to help me.

Names are interesting, God seems to change names for some people in the Bible.

What was Paul's physician for? What was his physical illness, is it listed in the Bible?

Der Alte · Jan 31, 2011

Studious One said:
Since God forbade alcoholic wine in the Tabernacle, I highly doubt He allowed it in the Church.

I don't see any scripture references for this assertion. Also see my post above about Passover. Because the grape harvest in Israel is not until 2 month or more after Passover any "wine" served would have contained alcohol.

If there were Baptist deaconesses making alcoholic communion wine, they were doing so outside of the will of God.

That was the practice of the largest Baptist denomination in the world until prohibition. Man's law not the Bible ended the practice.

As to medicinal wine, there are plenty of references in books written in the 1st Century A.D. that record non-alcoholic wines that were considered to be good for a person's health. I suggest you make a trip to your local library and research books by Plato, Plutarch, Aristotles, Columella, Pliny the Elder, and Cato. All these writers, (from 1st Century B.C. to 1st Century A.D) all record non alcoholic wines and how they were made.

Once again unsupported assertions with NO, ZERO, NONE evidence. If you think you can find some evidence to support your argument, do so and post it here, I'm not going on a fishing expedition. There may have been some medicinal uses of grape juice mixed with herbs, etc. but without fermentation they would not have lasted very long.

There indeed was a stomach wine that was called 'adumion' that was used for stomach ailments.

More unsupported assertions with no evidence! And OBTW I know where you are coming from I have lived with it almost my entire life.

Studious One · Jan 31, 2011

Der Alter said:
There are two words for wine in Greek oinos and sucre. Oionos is always fermented wine! Sucre can refer to fresh grape juice but it is also used for a sweet fermented wine.

Actually, oinos could be alcoholic or non alcoholic. And sucre cannot be found in the New Testament text. Gleukos can.

At the last supper which was a Passover Seder real, alcohol content, wine is required by OT law. The grape harvest in Israel begins in June, Passover is in March/April, two months before. Without refrigeration the only way anyone in Israel could have grape juice in any form, at Passover, was if it was fermented, i.e. wine, with alcohol content.

I find it hard to believe that the last supper wine was alcoholic in content considering in the Old Testament Passover that which was fermented was to be put outside of the house.

Exodus 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

At the wedding when Jesus turned the water into wine the ruler of the feast said, "Every man at the beginning does set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but you have kept the good wine until now." The word translated "well drunk" is Methuo it has only one meaning "intoxicated." It does not mean to drink a large quantity. Also there was a comparison, how much grape juice does a person have to drink before they can't tell the difference between good and bad?

If the guests were drunk as you infer, then you have Jesus adding to their drunkenness. This would make Him a sinner and disqualify Him from being the Savior of the world.

He would be contributing to man's drunkenness, meaning He came to help men on the road to damnation rather than to seek and save that which was lost.

I disagree with your assessment of the wines of the Last Supper and the Wedding Feast at Cana.

godisreal36 · Jan 31, 2011

Ive been awake a long time now and my stomach hurts, i need sleep, i'll go try to get some rest. Nice talking about the Word with you both, it's been a blessing. Thanks. ttyl.

Studious One · Jan 31, 2011

Der Alter said:
I don't see any scripture references for this assertion. Also see my post above about Passover. Because the grape harvest in Israel is not until 2 month or more after Passover any "wine" served would have contained alcohol.

Leviticus 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

Again, I encourage you to study 1st Century writings. They record the methods of making and preserving non intoxicating wines.

That was the practice of the largest Baptist denomination in the world until prohibition. Man's law not the Bible ended the practice.

Actually, since the Bible forbade alcohol in the Tabrnalcle, it was man's law that started the practice of alcohol in the Church.

Once again unsupported assertions with NO, ZERO, NONE evidence. If you think you can find some evidence to support your argument, do so and post it here, I'm not going on a fishing expedition. There may have been some medicinal uses of grape juice mixed with herbs, etc. but without fermentation they would not have lasted very long.

Not going fishing? Bible tells us to study to show ourselves approved unto God. But hey, if you are not willing to research, it's your choice.

More unsupported assertions with no evidence! And OBTW I know where you are coming from I have lived with it almost my entire life.

Oh, I have enough support. I have even made non intoxicating wine using the 1st Century method of boiling the juice of the grape as soon as they were squeezed and refrigeration. (that's right, they did have methods of refrigeration in Bible times contrary to what many believe. Oh, before you mock and jest, it was not by electrical devices as we use today. It was by sinking that which they wanted to keep cold in ponds and larger bodies of water.)

I stored the wine I made for 2 years before opening it and drinking it. I drank a full 14 oz cup of that wine in less than a minute. Had it been alcoholic, I no doubt would have been plastered. I was not.

Der Alte · Jan 31, 2011

Studious One said:
Actually, oinos could be alcoholic or non alcoholic. And sucre cannot be found in the New Testament text. Gleukos can.

[/COLOR]I find it hard to believe that the last supper wine was alcoholic in content considering in the Old Testament Passover that which was fermented was to be put outside of the house.

Exodus 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

My mistake you are correct it is Gleuchos which means both unfermented grape juice and a sweet wine. You are misrepresenting scripture to make it line up with your assumptions/presuppositions! This verse does NOT say put anything fermented out of the house. It very clearly says "leaven," then it explains, "whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel." It says absolutely nothing about drinking/not drinking wine, which was a part of the Passover!

Wine does NOT require leaven. All one has to do it put grape juice in a closed container in a cool space it will naturally ferment. Once upon a time my wife had about 3/4 bottle of good old Welchs in the refrigerator. My wife passed away and it sat there forgotten for a few months. I saw it one day and opened it, when I did it made a small "poong" sound from the gasses which had built up. It was wine with an alcohol content, with nothing added.

If the guests were drunk as you infer, then you have Jesus adding to their drunkenness. This would make Him a sinner and disqualify Him from being the Savior of the world.

He would be contributing to man's drunkenness, meaning He came to help men on the road to damnation rather than to seek and save that which was lost.

I have merely shown what the literal words mean. If scripture does NOT support your Baptist assumptions/presuppositions that is not my problem. Nothing Jesus did forced anybody to do anything! Can you explain how much grape juice someone must drink before they cannot tell the difference between good and bad grape juice? Also I point out once again the word translated "well drunk" in the KJV is "Methuo" and it has only one meaning "intoxicated" it does NOT mean drink a large quantity.

I disagree with your assessment of the wines of the Last Supper and the Wedding Feast at Cana.

Disagree all you like but you cannot support your objection from scripture. Nothing you could say will put unfermented grape juice in Israel 2 months before grape harvest. And OBTW I am thoroughly familiar with the Baptist Faith and Message and Abstract of Principles.

Der Alte · Jan 31, 2011

Studious One said:
Leviticus 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

Another scripture another misrepresentation. Let's read it in context.

Lev 10:8-11
(8) And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
(9) Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
(10) And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
(11) And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

God was talking to Aaron, as the high priest, and his sons the priests, NOT all Israel or all mankind. That the high priest could not drink wine or strong drink before he went into the tabernacle says nothing about any other time of his life and certainly nothing about wine at the Passover which was observed in homes not the tabernacle.

Again, I encourage you to study 1st Century writings. They record the methods of making and preserving non intoxicating wines.

IOW all you can do is make unsupported assertions. You cannot back up your claims!

Actually, since the Bible forbade alcohol in the Tabrnalcle, it was man's law that started the practice of alcohol in the Church.

False conclusion based on misrepresentation of scripture.

Not going fishing? Bible tells us to study to show ourselves approved unto God. But hey, if you are not willing to research, it's your choice.

You are the one who is not willing to do any research! If you had actually read any 1st century writings which support your arguments you could very easily and quickly name those writings. But the fact is you have copy/pasted unsupported information from random second hand sources, probably online, trying to pass it off as fact.

Oh, I have enough support. I have even made non intoxicating wine using the 1st Century method of boiling the juice of the grape as soon as they were squeezed and refrigeration. (that's right, they did have methods of refrigeration in Bible times contrary to what many believe. Oh, before you mock and jest, it was not by electrical devices as we use today. It was by sinking that which they wanted to keep cold in ponds and larger bodies of water.)

I stored the wine I made for 2 years before opening it and drinking it. I drank a full 14 oz cup of that wine in less than a minute. Had it been alcoholic, I no doubt would have been plastered. I was not.

If what you say is true then you should be able to tell me the source of these so-called instructions. They are certainly not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. If this is a Biblical requirement for preserving grape juice then it should be stated somewhere in scripture and we both know it is not! OBTW where and when did Jesus boil grape juice and store it in a cold body of water so he could use it unfermented at his Passover?

Timothew · Jan 31, 2011

I get whiskey bent and hell bound
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM7vE5gcX84

Der Alte · Jan 31, 2011

Timothew said:
I've read the Parable of Lazarus and Dives. The rule is often quoted that a parable can't use real names. I can't find that rule, can you show me where that rule is written?

* * * Irrelevant ad hoc analogies omitted * * *

The rule is Jesus meant what he said and said what he meant unless he stated otherwise or the context requires otherwise. Jesus did not identify the Luke 16 passage as a parable and nothing in the context requires it to be other than factual. The fact that Jesus told other parables does NOT make it parable. General examples of things which happen all the time, can legitimately be used for illustration, e.g. widows have lost coins, shepherds have lost sheep, etc, throughout history. But the events in Luke 16:19-31 are not introduced as a parable by Jesus and the assumed hidden meaning is never explained to Jesus' disciples. Thus if the specific historical person Abraham was not in the specific place as stated and did not say the specific words that Jesus quoted, Jesus was a liar.

Timothew · Jan 31, 2011

Jesus continued: There was a man who had two sons. The younger one said to his father, 'Father give me my share of the estate. . .

Is this a parable or no?

Studious One · Jan 31, 2011

Scripture says it is forbidden for kings to drink wine lest they pervert the law and forget the afflictions of the poor.

Jesus, as the King of kings, would not have drank alcohol.

Nor would He have given man alcohol, helping man to justify his drinking.

Timothew · Jan 31, 2011

Studious One said:
Scripture says it is forbidden for kings to drink wine lest they pervert the law and forget the afflictions of the poor.

Jesus, as the King of kings, would not have drank alcohol.

Nor would He have given man alcohol, helping man to justify his drinking.

According to John 2:8, it was the servants who gave the alcohol to the master of the banquent, not Jesus.

Studious One · Jan 31, 2011

Timothew said:
According to John 2:8, it was the servants who gave the alcohol to the master of the banquent, not Jesus.

Jesus made the wine (not alcohol) for the wedding guests. He told the servant, not servants, to bear it to the governor of the feast.

Timothew · Jan 31, 2011

John 2:8
Then he told them, (plural)

I just said alcohol because you did, you are right it was wine.

Wine contains some alcohol.

Der Alte · Jan 31, 2011

Studious One said:
Scripture says it is forbidden for kings to drink wine lest they pervert the law and forget the afflictions of the poor.

Jesus, as the King of kings, would not have drank alcohol.

Nor would He have given man alcohol, helping man to justify his drinking.

Where does scripture say "it is forbidden for kings to drink wine lest they pervert the law and forget the afflictions of the poor?" I can't seem to find that verse. As I have shown you misrepresented the other scripture you quoted.

Your unsupported opinion that Jesus would not drink alcohol. There is nothing inherently evil in alcohol! Since alcohol in and of itself is not evil there is nothing which would have prevented Jesus from making wine at the wedding and serving wine at his last Passover.

Still waiting for you to explain why John used the word μεθύω/methuo in 2:9 which only means intoxicated and how much grape juice does a person have to drink before they cannot tell the difference between good and worse grape juice?

G3184 μεθύω methuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be drunken
2) metaphorically of one who has shed blood or murdered profusely
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayers/Strongs Number: from another form of G3178
Citing in TDNT: 4:545, 576

Timothew · Jan 31, 2011

It must be Proverbs 31:4-5

It is not for kings, O Lemuel,
It is not for kings to drink wine,
Or for rulers to desire strong drink,
For they will drink and forget what is decreed,
And pervert the rights of all the afflicted.

Not quite Forbidden.

Fireinfolding · Jan 31, 2011

I havent looked into this much maybe someone can point out something to me, I know somewhere Jesus said John come neither eating and drinking and they called him something (Im being lazy here lol) and the Son of man come doing both and they called him glutonous and a winebibber. Now I know what they called him is most likely false here however they could only judge by the appearance of things (like the sky being red etc) or after the flesh etc I just found it curious that John was noted for coming in the "not eating and drinking" part whereas Jesus states he come contrarywise and how they judged him for doing so in the way that they did. Would it have any negative connotations if it was just grapejuice alone?

I know Noah a preacher of righteousness have a few stiff ones, well if thats what him being drunken meant

godisreal36 · Jan 31, 2011

I wonder how much King Herod drank.

Studious One · Jan 31, 2011

Timothew said:
John 2:8
Then he told them, (plural)

I just said alcohol because you did, you are right it was wine.

Wine contains some alcohol.

Not all wine contains alcohol.

Cato, in his book "On Agriculture", records methods of making and preserving nonfermented wines. As do other writers of his day.

I used one of the methods that Pliny the Elder recorded and was able to make a wine that could not and would not intoxicate even after two years.

You and Der Alter can disagree all you want, but until you research for yourselves, you will never understand the truth concerning the oinos that Jesus produced at the Wedding feast of Cana and that fruit of the vine that was drank at the Last Supper.

Studious One · Jan 31, 2011

Fireinfolding said:
I havent looked into this much maybe someone can point out something to me, I know somewhere Jesus said John come neither eating and drinking and they called him something (Im being lazy here lol) and the Son of man come doing both and they called him glutonous and a winebibber. Now I know what they called him is most likely false here however they could only judge by the appearance of things (like the sky being red etc) or after the flesh etc I just found it curious that John was noted for coming in the "not eating and drinking" part whereas Jesus states he come contrarywise and how they judged him for doing so in the way that they did. Would it have any negative connotations if it was just grapejuice alone?

I know Noah a preacher of righteousness have a few stiff ones, well if thats what him being drunken meant

Just as John the Baptist was being falsely accused, even so was the Lord being falsely accused of drinking wine. Notice in that passage Jesus did not say what He was drinking, only that He was drinking. What they accused Him of was not of being a drunkard. Had they accused Him of being a drunkard, they would have used the Greek word methusos. They did not. What they accused Him of was being a oinopotes. Oinopotes is comprised of two words... oinos meaning wine, and potes meaning drinker. They accused Him of drinking wine... which was a false accusation. Jesus refuted their accusations by His reply. "But wisdom is justified of all her children."

Context shows they were falsely accusing Him of drinking wine as many do today in an attempt to justify their drinking of wine.

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