Let's Talk About Hell (6)

dollarsbill · May 22, 2012

Timothew said:
How is QUOTING the Scripture VERBATUM distorting the scripture?

When it DISAGREES with Luke 16.

Luke 16:22-28 (NASB)
22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 ~'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house
28 for I have five brothersin order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

Timothew · May 22, 2012

dollarsbill said:
When it DISAGREES with Luke 16.

So you are saying that Luke 16 disagrees with Romans 6:23?

createdtoworship · May 22, 2012

Timothew said:
No, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not proof of eternal torment.

Don't you have any other proof? That is so sad. I guess you will give up now.

lazerus and the rich man is not a parable unless you can find ANY parable mentioning the real name of someone. You have never been able to provide a name and a parable other than lazerus. So it's not a parable.

createdtoworship · May 22, 2012

Timothew said:
And?

Doesn't this refute YOUR view instead of ours?
If destroy and perish mean kill and die, that is what we are saying. Your claim requires them to mean the opposite of destroy, perish, kill and die.

nope, kill and die does not mean annihilate. Else why would we fear God who can destroy BOTH body and soul?

Timothew · May 23, 2012

gradyll said:
lazerus and the rich man is not a parable unless you can find ANY parable mentioning the real name of someone. You have never been able to provide a name and a parable other than lazerus. So it's not a parable.

You've never been able to prove that a parable that contains a name can't be a parable.

nope, kill and die does not mean annihilate. Else why would we fear God who can destroy BOTH body and soul?

Are you saying that a person can have both their body and soul destroyed and still live through it???

x141 · May 23, 2012

Mat_13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

God/Father like his word has no depth or height, width or length. It is without measure other than the measurement we bind it with by the tree of knowledge or our perception of what is good and what is evil. It is these two pillars that the house of the philistines stands on.

BobRyan · May 23, 2012

In Luke 16 we have a parable about praying to the dead, about Abraham being the sovereign over all dead saints and about the dead saints being called "THE DEAD" even in that chapter

It ends with the fact "If they do not listen to Moses neither will they listen though one rises from THE DEAD". Luke 16:31 Which is the "real point" of the parable.

Those who like to refer to this parable almost always express the need to avoid the point of it.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · May 23, 2012

In the book of Jude Sodom and Gomorrah are given as examples in real life of "undergoing the punishment of Eternal Fire".

That should tell you something.

Real fire, real torment - but the "eternal nature" of the fire is that its effects last forever - not that those burned by it "get eternal life and are never destroyed".

In fact Christ said in Matt 10:28 that God "is able to destroy both body and soul in fiery hell".

Hint for those who want to twist that text into "God is able but will NEVER" -- look up all the "he is ABLE" in the NT - you will find that He is able

Romans 16:25
Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

2 Timothy 1:12
For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed

Hebrews 2:18
For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 11:19
He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.

in Christ,

Bob

dollarsbill · May 23, 2012

Timothew said:
So you are saying that Luke 16 disagrees with Romans 6:23?

No. It disagrees with you.

dollarsbill · May 23, 2012

Timothew said:
You've never been able to prove that a parable that contains a name can't be a parable.

Luke 16 does not say it's a parable. It names 3 LITERAL Biblical people of God. It is LITERAL.

BobRyan · May 23, 2012

In judges 9 the "trees elect a king" they are talking they name "the vine" and the "bramble" as those speaking. Never is it said to be "a parable" -- but obviously it is.

Many Bible scholars that DO believe in eternal hell point out that the fact that you have prayers to the dead, no appeal to God, Abraham sovereign over all the dead saints, all the dead saints literally in Abraham's lap etc.. this is a parable by every measure.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · May 23, 2012

BobRyan said:
In Luke 16 we have a parable about praying to the dead, about Abraham being the sovereign over all dead saints and about the dead saints being called "THE DEAD" even in that chapter

It ends with the fact "If they do not listen to Moses neither will they listen though one rises from THE DEAD". Luke 16:31 Which is the "real point" of the parable.

Those who like to refer to this parable almost always express the need to avoid the point of it.

Indeed they quote every part of that parable EXCEPT its most literal part- the conclusion.

That should tell us something.

in Christ,

Bob

dollarsbill · May 23, 2012

BobRyan said:
In Luke 16 we have a parable about praying to the dead, about Abraham being the sovereign over all dead saints and about the dead saints being called "THE DEAD" even in that chapter

It ends with the fact "If they do not listen to Moses neither will they listen though one rises from THE DEAD". Luke 16:31 Which is the "real point" of the parable.

Those who like to refer to this parable almost always express the need to avoid the point of it.

And your proof that Luke 16 is a parable is???

BobRyan · May 23, 2012

Luke 16 -- Prayers to the dead, Abraham sovereign over all dead saints, Dead saints all in Abraham's lap, the rich man with a real tongue in hell asking for real water to be put on his real tongue --

Pure parable -- so say Bible scholars who themselves believe in eternal immediate hell for all the wicked - but can not bring themselves to ignore the parable-elements in Luke 16.

in Christ,

Bob

dollarsbill · May 23, 2012

BobRyan said:
In the book of Jude Sodom and Gomorrah are given as examples in real life of "undergoing the punishment of Eternal Fire".

That should tell you something.

The 'eternal fire' comes later.

Real fire, real torment - but the "eternal nature" of the fire is that its effects last forever - not that those burned by it "get eternal life and are never destroyed".

Then there would be absolutely no reason to use the word 'eternal'.

In fact Christ said in Matt 10:28 that God "is able to destroy both body and soul in fiery hell".

Glad you got it right.

Hint for those who want to twist that text into "God is able but will NEVER" -- look up all the "he is ABLE" in the NT - you will find that He is able

Romans 16:25
Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

2 Timothy 1:12
For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed

Hebrews 2:18
For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 11:19
He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.

God is also able to save everyone, but it won't happen.

Timothew · May 23, 2012

dollarsbill said:
And your proof that Luke 16 is a parable is???

Dollarsbill, you believe in hell. Do you also believe that people in hell can see and talk to people in heaven? And that people in heaven can see and talk to people in hell? Aside from Luke 16, Where else in the bible does it say that people in heaven and people in hell will be together, separated only by a ravine?

Timothew · May 23, 2012

gradyll said:
lazerus and the rich man is not a parable unless you can find ANY parable mentioning the real name of someone. You have never been able to provide a name and a parable other than lazerus. So it's not a parable.

Here is a parable, a story told to provide a spiritual or moral lesson, that contains a name. This parable is not from the bible, but not all parables are. Here you go, now you will know that a parable can contain a name. I'm glad to be of service to you:

"When George," said she, "was about six years old, he was made the wealthy master of a hatchet! of which, like most little boys, he was immoderately fond, and was constantly going about chopping everything that came in his way. One day, in the garden, where he often amused himself hacking his mother's pea-sticks, he unluckily tried the edge of his hatchet on the body of a beautiful young English cherry-tree, which he barked so terribly, that I don't believe the tree ever got the better of it. The next morning the old gentleman, finding out what had befallen his tree, which, by the by, was a great favourite, came into the house; and with much warmth asked for the mischievous author, declaring at the same time, that he would not have taken five guineas for his tree. Nobody could tell him anything about it. Presently George and his hatchet made their appearance. "George," said his father, "do you know who killed that beautiful little cherry tree yonder in the garden? " This was a tough question; and George staggered under it for a moment; but quickly recovered himself: and looking at his father, with the sweet face of youth brightened with the inexpressible charm of all-conquering truth, he bravely cried out, "I can't tell a lie, Pa; you know I can't tell a lie. I did cut it with my hatchet." "Run to my arms, you dearest boy," cried his father in transports, "run to my arms; glad am I, George, that you killed my tree; for you have paid me for it a thousand fold. Such an act of heroism in my son is more worth than a thousand trees, though blossomed with silver, and their fruits of purest gold."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parson_Weems

"The cherry tree parable reminded Americans that Washington was a great moral leader, said Robert R. Siegrist, who heads a project to restore the site of Washington's childhood home near Fredericksburg." http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/a...ee-tale-fact-or-fiction-parable-may-have.html

dollarsbill · May 23, 2012

Timothew said:
Dollarsbill, you believe in hell. Do you also believe that people in hell can see and talk to people in heaven? And that people in heaven can see and talk to people in hell? Aside from Luke 16, Where else in the bible does it say that people in heaven and people in hell will be together, separated only by a ravine?

I believe what Luke 16 says. Don't you?

Timothew · May 23, 2012

dollarsbill said:
I believe what Luke 16 says. Don't you?

Yes, once again, it is a parable, not a description of hell.

The wages of sin is death.

he-man · May 23, 2012

Timothew said:
You've never been able to prove that a parable that contains a name can't be a parable.

Are you saying that a person can have both their body and soul destroyed and still live through it???

Somehow they think that a Greek Lexicon isn't an English Dictionary? Interesting...
List of Greek words with English derivatives
Greek Lexicon: This is a list of Greek words with derivatives in English. The words are in Greek alphabetic order, with tables for the 24 Greek letters, listing thousands of related English words

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