Length for daughter? length for mom?

I don't think any woman should be wearing dresses that short (Personally, I would also complain about the neckline if one tried to put me in it.)

I think that, especially if this is a private school, it should be in the school's hands to decide what's appropriate for that school. However, I think it might be a good idea to get a second opinion (maybe principal and teacher have to agree?) before sending someone home to change.

That teacher was being ridiculous. There is nothing particularly "distracting" about that dress, and the only distraction was for the girl who was forced to leave school on her last day. The whole thing is especially silly given that the article indicated she'd worn the dress previously with no issue.

graciesings said:

I don't think any woman should be wearing dresses that short (Personally, I would also complain about the neckline if one tried to put me in it.)

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I guess I don't understand why someone would have a problem with legs, of all things.

I saw the picture a few days ago and assumed it was because of cleavage. Length didn't even occur to me. Even my Catholic high school only cared about clothing going down to your fingertips. Crazy teacher. The girl will probably end up wearing the dress to work in a couple years and have a great story to tell.

I think it's stupid, but so is the media for making a big deal out of it and call this legitimate "news" that we all should be outraged about. First World Problems

graciesings said:

I don't think any woman should be wearing dresses that short (Personally, I would also complain about the neckline if one tried to put me in it.)

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Why don't you think a woman should be wearing dresses that short?

I don't think it would be wrong to be totally naked. That's the natural state for humans... it's the modest people that are the weird ones. I include myself in that. I'm in favour of clothes... and while I might have problems with some lacking of clothes in some situations, I know that's sort of my issue, or society's issue.

Women wore dresses of that length in my very conservative Southern Baptist church with no issues.

I don't see a problem with it at all. But private school = their own (sometimes crazy) rules.

The two women in question appear to have different builds, which affects the way a dress "hangs" on the body. The dress on the mother does not look too short, but it may be a different story on the daughter. That having been said, I think modesty and propriety are important, and should be left to the parents. If the parents fail to teach modesty and propriety to their children and it disrupts school, the teachers have an obligation to say something. The claim that this young lady had worn the dress numerous times seems to be a case where a teacher was making a mountain out of a molehill.

When I attended a private Christian school, there was a student there who had a very large bust (exceptionally large for young women her age). She conformed to the dress code, showing no cleavage whatsoever, but was still told her tops were too tight. It was distressing for her, since finding a top that fit her will was very difficult.

Eventually, the parents took the issue to the Dean, and he resolved the issue by giving her a free pass on the tops she had worn (he had seen her wear them at school previously). When teachers and other parents complained, he countered that they should seek to maintain purity in their minds. Yes, she had large breasts, and yes, she was in a school with boys who would undoubtedly notice her breasts and, um, "appreciate them" (my words, not his).

The Dean was not excusing lust, but he acknowledged that no matter what she wore, lust was going to take place, and that was something only the person choosing to lust could control. He said that any sexual harassment toward her or any other student would be grounds for immediate expulsion, if not arrest. Furthermore, he advised the staff that anyone caught making inappropriate advances toward her or any other student would be arrested, fired, and prosecuted for sexual intent toward a minor to the fullest extent of the law.

In the end, the Dean "opened up the floor" for the students to talk about the dress code--an unprecedented act. He asked students to submit typed input privately in a suggestion box, allowing them the opportunity to give their personal opinion on how the dress code was easy/difficult for them. This led to some distinct alternatives for students not able to abide by the standardized dress code that had been established.

The bottom line: there is no "one size fits all" answer to how to deal with issues of modesty. We have to be patient, understanding, and vigilant, in order to avoid problems. Ultimately, how we view someone is on us, not them.

DarkWalker said:

That having been said, I think modesty and propriety are important, and should be left to the parents.

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Why do you think they are important?

Modestly doesn't mean anything objective. Some people might think only wearing a burqa is modest, while some might think that wearing ONLY a small skirt is modest.

I don't think modesty is directly a moral issue... though it can have practical benefits, like reducing distraction. But that has to be weighed against other things, like freedom and oppression.

Paradoxum said:

Why do you think they are important?

Modestly doesn't mean anything objective. Some people might think only wearing a burqa is modest, while some might think that wearing ONLY a small skirt is modest.

I don't think modesty is directly a moral issue... though it can have practical benefits, like reducing distraction. But that has to be weighed against other things, like freedom and oppression.

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Modesty and propriety are important because if we ignore them, problems develop. Society runs on a certain degree of order. I imagine there are laws in Europe similar to those in the United States, dictating that one cannot walk around naked (or revealing particular body parts) wherever they please. Certainly, there are "designated places" for such things, but modesty is mandated by law because of the problems that would result if it were not.

The problems could range from distraction, to health problems, to sexual assault. There are a number of problems that can result simply from a lack of modesty. Does that mean that if a woman or man dresses immodestly they will be raped? Of course not. However, a person walking down the street in their underwear is more likely to draw sexual attention from others than someone who is not.

Propriety is important because it requires civility, and without it, chaos would ensue. There are varying degrees of propriety for various places and situations, of course, but I think of it this way: if people were to behave in their every day lives the same way they behave in a mosh pit, life would be exceedingly difficult for them, and probably not without at least one arrest.

Neither of these characteristics are objective, and I'm sorry if I gave you the impression I thought they were. That is why I believe it should be left to the parents to raise their child(ren) the way they believe is best. You're correct that one person's modesty is another person's oppression, but I do believe there are minimum degrees of modesty that are culturally expected.

Modesty in a nudist colony is very different from modesty in a monastery, but each culture has their own baseline of what they believe modesty is.

DarkWalker said:

Modesty and propriety are important because if we ignore them, problems develop. Society runs on a certain degree of order. I imagine there are laws in Europe similar to those in the United States, dictating that one cannot walk around naked (or revealing particular body parts) wherever they please. Certainly, there are "designated places" for such things, but modesty is mandated by law because of the problems that would result if it were not.

The problems could range from distraction,

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I can see how that could be a problem with driving... other than that, I'm not sure how it would be a legal issue. I do wonder how much of a danger it would really be though. I wonder if the laws are just there to oppress people.

to health problems,

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Like what? Also, each people could choose for them self whether to take on a health risk. I don't think the government should force that on people.

to sexual assault.

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I don't know how much of a difference it would make. Also, people would be freely taking on that risk.

There are a number of problems that can result simply from a lack of modesty.

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The only one that makes sense to me, as good grounds for a law, is distraction of drivers.

I don't know if that's so bad that it's worth the oppression though. Maybe it is. I'm not a nudist, and nor am I in favour of people being naked in public... but I don't like needless oppression.

Does that mean that if a woman or man dresses immodestly they will be raped? Of course not. However, a person walking down the street in their underwear is more likely to draw sexual attention from others than someone who is not.

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Well the same argument could be made about all western clothes compared to Islamic ones.

Propriety is important because it requires civility, and without it, chaos would ensue. There are varying degrees of propriety for various places and situations, of course, but I think of it this way: if people were to behave in their every day lives the same way they behave in a mosh pit, life would be exceedingly difficult for them, and probably not without at least one arrest.

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Can you give me an example about propriety?

You could say that two people jumping and hugging from good news is like a mosh pit... but that isn't a bad thing.

I'm not saying you're wrong about propriety... I just don't know what you mean by it.

Neither of these characteristics are objective, and I'm sorry if I gave you the impression I thought they were.

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I just brought it up because I felt like a discussion.

That is why I believe it should be left to the parents to raise their child(ren) the way they believe is best. You're correct that one person's modesty is another person's oppression, but I do believe there are minimum degrees of modesty that are culturally expected.

Modesty in a nudist colony is very different from modesty in a monastery, but each culture has their own baseline of what they believe modesty is.

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I agree there is a level that most people expect, but I'm not sure if it's right for the government to force that on people. Isn't that just a tyranny of the majority?

As I said, I can see how it could be distracting for drivers, and I don't actually want people naked in the street, I'm just explain how my thoughts pull me the other way too.