Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 12, 2010

Would I be correct in saying this is more of a Roman thang?

Hyperdulia | Define Hyperdulia at Dictionary.com

hyperdulia

noun Roman Catholic Theology .
the veneration offered to the Virgin Mary as the most exalted of creatures.

Rdr Iakovos · Nov 12, 2010

Rick Otto said:
If we're unable to be Christ-like on even a superficial level, how can we be trusted on the larger issues?

My thought exactly. How can anyone desire to become a Christian when he or she can clearly see it's an "I'm holier than thou" environment they'd be jumping into.

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 12, 2010

I have no idea what this thread is all about, so I am going to unsubscribe.

"Just the Scriptures folks, just the Scriptures"

Rdr Iakovos · Nov 12, 2010

Standing Up said:
Indeed.

1 Cor. 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

But Paul is talking about meat in the marketplace. I go to a supermarket now, so it doesn't apply to me. I bow to a statue, which is what you see, but in my heart, I'm really bowing to St. Soandso.

Crazy stuff as someone mentioned. John---love. That's about it.

Can we count on you and the Mrs. to do your part not to offend? How does she look in a hijab?

Rdr Iakovos · Nov 12, 2010

Tyndale said:
OK, I'm coming at this from as neutral a persective as I can. I understand why the early RC church introduced these Greek ideas. There's no doubt that their intentions were good. However, what I want to discuss here is whether, with hindsight, we think merging Polytheistic and Monotheist ideas on worship is a good thing?

Just because a church decision was made stating that you partake in Dulia when you pray to a Saint and you partake in Latria when you pray to God. The physical actions, which were so important when defining worship in the bible, are similar throughout all three degrees of reverence/worship here. As a Priest in the OT or a Christian in the NT you would be perplexed by this behaviour.

Can we as fallible human beings be content in the knowledge that the RC church officials have got this one right?

Have they defined worship/reverence to such a level that the 2nd commandment needs to be reworded or did they meddle too much with Polytheistic ideas just to accomodate for heathens?

I'll take "loaded questions" for $800, Alex....

ebia · Nov 12, 2010

Rdr Iakovos said:
Neither do movies or daughters without head coverings.

If you wish to do all that is required to NOT offend Muslim sensibility, in the vaguest of hopes that they'll join the team, well, see you in Mecca.

In my experience in Pakistan, the most off-putting factor for Muslims was the perception that Christians are unconcerned with care for the creation and their responsibility for the rest of the world - human and otherwise. That Christians aren't worried about all the damage they are doing environmentally and socially because they believe Christ is going to come and abolish it all shortly anyway. Bear in mind that for most Pakistanis the United States of America and the Protestant right there forms the basis for their ideas of Christianity, not the Vatican or Eastern Orthodoxy.

ebia · Nov 12, 2010

Rdr Iakovos said:
Can we count on you and the Mrs. to do your part not to offend? How does she look in a hijab?

If she goes to NWFP I suggest she does at least wear the scalf.

Standing Up · Nov 12, 2010

LittleLambofJesus said:
Would I be correct in saying this is more of a Roman thang?

Hyperdulia | Define Hyperdulia at Dictionary.com

hyperdulia

noun Roman Catholic Theology .
the veneration offered to the Virgin Mary as the most exalted of creatures.

From the little I understand:

Dulia--to X (to creatures less than Mary)
Hyperdulia--to X2 (Mary, most exalted of creatures)
Latria--God alone

Augustine tried to work through it, but Aquinas seems to have polished it. Leo is between them. Abstain for appearance sake brothers.

Standing Up · Nov 12, 2010

LittleLambofJesus said:
I did find a few forms of the word "latria" using a concordance.
Interesting 2 of those times it [#3000] is used in Revelation

Young) Revelation 7:15 because of this are they before the throne of God, and they do service/latreuousin <3000> (5719) to Him day and night in His sanctuary, and He who is sitting upon the throne shall tabernacle over them;

Young) Revelation 22:3 and any curse there shall not be any more, and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve/latreusousin <3000> (5692) Him,

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2999&t=KJV

Strong's Number G2999 matches the Greek λατρεία (latreia), which occurs 5 times in 5 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

2999. latreia lat-ri'-ah from 3000; ministration of God, i.e. worship:--(divine) service.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3000&t=KJV

Strong's Number G3000 matches the Greek λατρεύω (latreuō), which occurs 21 times in 21 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

3000. latreuo lat-ryoo'-o from latris (a hired menial); to minister (to God), i.e. render religious homage:--serve, do the service, worship(-per).

Here's an angle:

On the contrary, Augustine says (De Civ. Dei x), that "the homage due to man, of which the Apostle spoke when he commanded servants to obey their masters and which in Greek is called dulia, is distinct from latria which denotes the homage that consists in the worship of God."
SUMMA THEOLOGICA: Dulia (Secunda Secundae Partis, Q. 103)

Do you find that too?

Tyndale · Nov 13, 2010

Rick Otto said:
I'm accepting microdulia if anybody's interested.

Does that include bowing to something with a microchip in it?

Standing Up · Nov 13, 2010

Tyndale said:
Does that include bowing to something with a microchip in it?

Only in disbelief

Tyndale · Nov 13, 2010

LittleLambofJesus said:
I have no idea what this thread is all about, so I am going to unsubscribe.

It took you long enough

Rhamiel · Nov 13, 2010

Tyndale said:
OK, I'm coming at this from as neutral a persective as I can. I understand why the early RC church introduced these Greek ideas. There's no doubt that their intentions were good. However, what I want to discuss here is whether, with hindsight, we think merging Polytheistic and Monotheist ideas on worship is a good thing?

Just because a church decision was made stating that you partake in Dulia when you pray to a Saint and you partake in Latria when you pray to God. The physical actions, which were so important when defining worship in the bible, are similar throughout all three degrees of reverence/worship here. As a Priest in the OT or a Christian in the NT you would be perplexed by this behaviour.

Can we as fallible human beings be content in the knowledge that the RC church officials have got this one right?

Have they defined worship/reverence to such a level that the 2nd commandment needs to be reworded or did they meddle too much with Polytheistic ideas just to accomodate for heathens?

i think it is an assumption to think that praying to saints is a merging of polytheistic and monotheistic

Rick Otto · Nov 13, 2010

ebia said:
If she goes to NWFP I suggest she does at least wear the scalf.

And a little mouthwash to cover the smell of pork ribs & malt liquor?(My wife grew up in a trailer.)

ebia · Nov 13, 2010

Rick Otto said:
And a little mouthwash to cover the smell of pork ribs & malt liquor?(My wife grew up in a trailer.)

And she still smells of it?

You'd have to have screw loose to walk around Peshawar with an open bottle of Jack Daniels in your hand, but alcohol is not actually completely unavailable even in NWFP (particularly in Chitral)

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