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Quath

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In other words, it leads you to think you can interrogate God - that's not building towards the kind of necessary healthy relationship that's needed.
It is more than just mild curiosity. People were telling me that i would suffer eternal damnation and torture if I chose or believed wrong. If God is going to put forth such a situation, I think He should be clear what salvation is. There is so much disagreement on what is needed for salvation, that I wanted to know I was on the right path.

He's not going to do it in a way that builds the wrong sort of relationship since that would defeat the whole point.
It seems a relationship based on lack of communication is no relationship at all.

There's nothing wrong with a scientific viewpoint - except for taking that as all there is (which is not, in itself, scientific).
Science does not guarantee 100% truth, but it does work for consistence and testability. Religion and faith go the opposite way and work off speculation and diverge over time due to lack of testing claims. In other words, science converges over time and religion diverges over time.


Bear in mind that majority of Christians do not take Genesis 1-11 literally - it's a prologue to the story of the bible proper that begins at Genesis 12.
That is interesting. I wonder how many Christians do see this literal verses a metaphor or something else?

Well, for me, it was not about wanting God to exist or not. I wanted to know the truth. If God hides from people wanting the truth, then I hope He is the version of God that does not send people to Hell for not finding Him. Otherwise, that seems evil.

I think there is a big difference from expecting God to grant me wishes and revealing His existance. It costs Him nothing to reveal Himself and could save my soul in the process. I see no reason why God would refuse to reveal Himself.

So I ask again. If God bends to your need for pallor tricks to prove His existence to you, Do you think He could still fill the role of the Alpha and Omega that is needed to pardon all sin?
If salvation is based on belief, then it would appear that part of his role should be making belief possible and not just blind guessing.

Entropy is a property of what happens inside the universe. You can not claim it deals with what happens outside the universe such as its creation. We also see things coming into existance without cause on the quantum scale. The Big Bang with inflation works a lot off this concept.

The energy of the Big Bang is 0. The total energy today is 0. It doesn't take energy to create a universe.

We can not predict what quantum events will happen. They do stuff without cause or hidden variables. It is easy to surmise that this can happen on a scale that leads to a universe.

Gravity is negative energy.

You are assuming it has to be caused, yet accepting that God does not have to be caused. If you can accept one, why not the other?

If reason leads to belief, then we would expect the most educated and intelligent would be more likely to believe, but we see the opposite.
 
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ebia

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I understand that, but a means of confirmation that in practice puts you on the wrong path would be counter-productive, wouldn't it?

It seems a relationship based on lack of communication is no relationship at all.
I didn't say there shouldn't be any communication, I objected to to the idea of that happening through magic tricks.

Science does not guarantee 100% truth, but it does work for consistence and testability.
That's fine, but there is no reason to suppose that it's mechanism for doing so can be applied to every question that needs answering. The scientific method is well designed for a particular job - understanding the mechanics of the material world. It's a finely honed tool for a specific purpose, but when one tries to use it for everything it tends to become a very poor blunt instrument. The methodology is able to be what it is because it is designed to study a particular sort of thing that lends itself to that. The enlightenment did a good job of evolving the scientific method itself, but a very poor job when it started to convince itself that that tool could be applied to everything worth asking and that only the things it could be applied to were worth knowing. A chisel is very good for carving wood, but bloody awful at getting the wheel-nuts off your car.

That is interesting. I wonder how many Christians do see this literal verses a metaphor or something else?
On a world scale most Christians understand the early chapters of Genesis to be mythic in genre, including the senior heirarchy of the Catholic Church, which accounts for a huge proportion of Christians alone. "Creationism" is not unheard of elsewhere, but it is largely an American phenomenon.


I think there is a big difference from expecting God to grant me wishes and revealing His existance. It costs Him nothing to reveal Himself and could save my soul in the process. I see no reason why God would refuse to reveal Himself.
What if he does reveal himself but you are unable or unwilling to see that because you are looking for the wrong sort of thing? God does reveal himself, but it has to be on his terms, not yours.

If reason leads to belief, then we would expect the most educated and intelligent would be more likely to believe, but we see the opposite.
If that were the only factor, possibly. But if the type of intelligence and/or reason promoted by culture and the education system that wouldn't be the case, or if the education system plays against it by reinforcing unhelpful that wouldn't be the case. The fact that scientists are particular underrepresented, more so than people of equal education in other disciplines would be consistant with this; that buying into the enlightenment assumptions, designed as they were to push God upstairs out of the way, correlates strongly with atheism, agnostism and vague deism. It would be interesting to see how different disciplines line up on this score, if you have any data on it. Ideally across a variety of cultures.

And it ignores the fact that Christianity at least is inherently more appealing to those at the bottom of the ladder and more confronting to those at the top, which runs against correlating positively with education. Since measuring inherent intelligence is very hard I don't think anybody could actually tell how that correlates with Christianity.
 
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Entropy is a property of what happens inside the universe. You can not claim it deals with what happens outside the universe such as its creation.

Our entropic universe could not possibly have arisen out of something physical outside of our universe, such as a multiverse, which was not entropic itself, for entropy could not have become part of our universe without entropy being part of any multiverse from which our universe arose. And any multiverse creating new entropic universes could not help but have its overall temperature by entropy cool down over an eternity until the multiverse became too cold to give rise to the extremely-high temperature of the Big Bang singularity, which thus could only have been created by a non-physical, and so non-entropic, source: a spirit with eternal power (Romans 1:20, John 4:24).

We also see things coming into existance without cause on the quantum scale. The Big Bang with inflation works a lot off this concept.

Science has never proven that anything on the quantum scale comes into existence without a cause, so such a concept can in no way be used as some sort of proof that the Big Bang singularity came into existence without a cause.

The energy of the Big Bang is 0. The total energy today is 0. It doesn't take energy to create a universe.

It took huge amounts of energy to create the universe: the energy of the Big Bang is estimated at 4x10**69 Joules. Because of the first law of thermodynamics, all of that energy still exists today in the universe.

We can not predict what quantum events will happen. They do stuff without cause or hidden variables. It is easy to surmise that this can happen on a scale that leads to a universe.

Just because science currently has no idea what variables cause some quantum events to happen, science cannot claim that these events are without cause, or that the creation of the huge amounts of energy in the Big Bang singularity came into existence without a cause.

Gravity is negative energy.

Gravity is a warping of spacetime caused by positive energy in the form of particles with positive mass. Gravity itself is not negative energy; only in the extreme gravitational fields of black holes is it theorized that vacuum fluctuations in space could be disturbed to the point of giving rise to some tiny amounts of negative energy which could then flow into the black hole while positive energy from the same disturbed vacuum fluctuations could flow out of the black hole in the form of Hawking radiation. In this way, anytime negative energy is created in the vacuum fluctuations near a black hole, this does not affect the total amount of positive energy in the universe. The total energy of the universe averaged over all space remains positive; nothing about gravity or anything else has cancelled out, or can ever cancel out, the 4x10**69 Joules of positive energy which still exists in the universe, and must forever exist in the universe because of the first law of thermodynamics.

You are assuming it has to be caused, yet accepting that God does not have to be caused. If you can accept one, why not the other?

The coming into existence of the Big Bang singularity some 13 billion years ago had to have a cause, because the energy of the Big Bang singularity had to have a source, because of the first law of thermodynamics.

God does not have to be caused, because he has always existed (Habakkuk 1:12). He has always existed because he is existence itself (Exodus 3:14, Acts 17:28), and it is not possible for existence itself not to exist.

If reason leads to belief, then we would expect the most educated and intelligent would be more likely to believe, but we see the opposite.

Knowing that God exists is the only reasonable response to seeing the existence of the universe (Romans 1:20). So when educated and intelligent people refuse to admit that God exists, this is only because they are intentionally choosing to be unreasonable, choosing to be foolish, with regard to God's existence, because of their human pride, their unthankfulness to God, and their desire to continue in sinful actions (Romans 1:19-22, Psalms 14:1).
 
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Quath

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I understand that, but a means of confirmation that in practice puts you on the wrong path would be counter-productive, wouldn't it?
When all religions start to look alike, something has to set one apart so I can know it is true. Say I pick one based on old holy book, then I have many religions to pick from because many have old holy books. The only thing left is scientific evidence because nothing else really separates out the different belief systems.

I agree with you about Catholics. The ones I have known have had less of a problem with science and religious belief. I guess I grew up around a lot of very religious Protestants. Their main complaint was that otheres were picking and choosing which parts of the Bible they wanted to believe in. It took me awhile to realize that others had the same complaints about them.

What if he does reveal himself but you are unable or unwilling to see that because you are looking for the wrong sort of thing? God does reveal himself, but it has to be on his terms, not yours.
That is hard to say since there are an infinite number of possible gods. But on some level, if he is unable to convincingly reveal himself, then it may not be the Christian god but some other god. For example this God may not have the power to alter odds or perform visible miracles.

I agree that intelligence is hard to measure. At one point, I found a poll on which type of scientists are more likely to be atheists. I think biologists were the least likely to believe in God and those in computer science/math were more likely. But I can't find that poll.

I think it does show that people who strongly accept the scientific method tend not to find God.

The second law of thermodynamics is an observed law (not so much proved, just noticed). We do know when it does fail. For example, take a box filled with gas at maximum entropy. Statistically, it will fluctuate with sometimes more particles in one portion of the box than others. When that happens, entropy has decreased. Entropy is really just a statement based on probability. If the universe had anough mass to result in a Big Crunch, the entropy would also be reset.

We are still learning about how universes can come into being. Once we have a quantum theory of general relativity, we will know a lot more about the limits of possibilities. As of now, we know that the universe could come out of nothingness because it has no net energy.

Science has never proven that anything on the quantum scale comes into existence without a cause, so such a concept can in no way be used as some sort of proof that the Big Bang singularity came into existence without a cause.
We have shown that particles are created in the vacuum, live for a small amout of time and disappear again. It has been used to explain attractive forces between parallel plates to Hawkings radiation.

In addition, quantum entanglement means that we can do something to a particle now that affects how the particle behaves in the past. This was one of the main reasonss why Einstein did not like quantum theory. But Bell's inequality showed that this was indeed the case.

It took huge amounts of energy to create the universe: the energy of the Big Bang is estimated at 4x10**69 Joules. Because of the first law of thermodynamics, all of that energy still exists today in the universe.
You have to be careful when talking about the size of the universe. We have the visible universe which we can see and detect. We know it is bigger than that, but not quite sure how big. It could be infinite or finite. However, if it is finite, it appears to be a bubble of expansion is a much bigger universe. This is part of inflation theory.

Now the total energy of the Big Bang is really 0 because you have to count gravity as negative energy. This is one of the beautiful things discovered in the last 20 years in science.

Here is one way to see that gravity is negative energy. When something falls in gravity on Earth, you can gain energy from it. The gravity of the Earth increases with this new mass added to it. By conservation of energy principle, the change in the gravity mathes the energy gained by the falling of the object. Here is a good website explaining some of this.

The coming into existence of the Big Bang singularity some 13 billion years ago had to have a cause, because the energy of the Big Bang singularity had to have a source, because of the first law of thermodynamics.
There are still so many possibilities when dealing with the Big Bang. One possibility is that a back hole in one universe creates a universe in another. Another is that The Big Crunch could be the creation of another universe (or even this one based on some quantum theories). Time appears to have been created at the Big bang or was almost not present. In other words, the univerrse could have a beginning but also be eternal. If you could step outside the universe, it would look like some static structure that does not move or change because we are outside of time. This could "always" exist eternally.

God does not have to be caused, because he has always existed (Habakkuk 1:12). He has always existed because he is existence itself (Exodus 3:14, Acts 17:28), and it is not possible for existence itself not to exist.
You could say that the universe is "God" and make the same claim.

That is a God of the Gaps argument. A reasonable person seeing lightning or an earthquake can assume it is a god. However, it means that they do not understand the limits of their owwn knowledge to explain naturally what these things are. Even if the Big bang were wrong, it does not mean that the "God Theory" would win out. The "God Theory" would have to win on its own merits by making predictions that can be verified.
 
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ebia

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1. What you were asking for originally was not scientific evidence, but a personalised magic trick.
2. You are still demanding that God mark out the right path in the way you want him to. That would be counter productive, especially in the form of the magic trick originally requested.

If the only indicator you were willing to accept would defeat the whole purpose of giving you an indicator, then you've chosen to put yourself in a dead-end with no way out.


"Believing the bible" cannot mean ignoring the literary genre of the texts any more than it can mean ignoring some of the words. The genre is as much part of the text as the words are.


You've ended up with too many unknowns. There are any number of reasons why the Judeo/Christian God, if he exists, would not perform your magic trick. And if your trick had succeeded there are still an infinite number of ideas of god or other powers that might have caused that. So whether your trick succeeds or fails you've demonstrated nothing.

The problem with God revealing himself lays not with God but with us.


That's roughly believable. Which raises the question about to what extent that's a product of the particular heat the question of evolution has played historically and continues to play in North America. If one had done a similar survey a couple of hundred years ago would it have been the astronomers who would have been the extreme group

I think it does show that people who strongly accept the scientific method tend not to find God.
Since that correlates strongly with accepting enlightment assumptions one can't easily separate that out, but that wouldn't explain the diffference between biologists and theoretical physicists.

But to some extent it's certainly true - if strongly accepts the scientific method to the exclusion of other ways of knowing and other sorts of knowledge with which it cannot act, if one puts facts above all other sorts of truth, then the results are obvious. But that's a very different thing to :
If reason leads to belief, then we would expect the most educated and intelligent would be more likely to believe, but we see the opposite
.
What we see is religion under represented mostly among scientists, and there most extremely in biologists, which points not to the obsticle being intelligence or education, but a particular mode of thinking and set of assumptions.
 
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Joveia

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I agree that this approach will work for most beliefs, but belief in God is a rather 'odd' belief in a certain way. Believing the Pythagorean theorem is true will not make me change my life, but if I believe that the Christian God exists then I have, in essence, no way of NOT changing my life. Lots of stuff has to suddenly be different. I have to start reading my Bible, I probably should go to church, I need to stop doing XYZ, and so on.

Imagine that God made you have a 100% certain belief in the Christian God overnight and you suddenly woke up and said "I am 100% sure God exists!" This would create quite a change, most likely, in your daily life! But of course you can follow the truth wherever it leads, but I would say that belief in God is 'odd' in this respect.

Also, I personally believe that people will go in the afterlife wherever they want to go. But heaven for a lot of people won't sound very attractive, so they'll choose to live somewhere where God effectively doesn't exist. Wouldn't it be hard to suddenly start serving and loving God with every fibre of your being if you haven't started doing it now on earth?
 
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The second law of thermodynamics is an observed law (not so much proved, just noticed).

The second law of thermodynamics has been proven by observation.


Entropy never fails; it's a law. There is no such thing as maximum entropy because there is no such thing as maximum temperature. And the law of entropy states, because all observations will show, that a very hot gas in a box will eventually cool down unless some external energy source keeps it hot.


We know that the universe could not have come out of nothing because of the first law of thermodynamics, and because the universe has a net positive energy of 4x10**69 Joules.

We have shown that particles are created in the vacuum, live for a small amout of time and disappear again. It has been used to explain attractive forces between parallel plates to Hawkings radiation.

Science has not proven that the vacuum fluctuations are uncaused or that they occur in a true vacuum, instead of one containing zero-point energy.


Science hasn't proven that quantum entanglement means that we can do something to a particle now that affects how the particle behaved in the past. All science has proven is that quantum entanglement means that we can do something to one particle now that instantly affects its entanglement-partner particle, no matter how far away that other particle is. That's why Einstein called it "spooky action at a distance".


The universe could not be infinite, because an infinite amount of time has not passed for it to expand into infinite size since the Big Bang only some 13 billion years ago. And the Big Bang singularity could not have come out of some always-existing bigger universe, because of entropy.

Now the total energy of the Big Bang is really 0 because you have to count gravity as negative energy. This is one of the beautiful things discovered in the last 20 years in science.

No one has proven that gravity is negative energy; all science has shown is the possibility that the very strong gravity fields of black holes could cause a virtual negative-energy particle at exactly the right distance from the black hole to fall into the black hole while a matching virtual positive-energy particle flies out into space.


The gravity of the earth increases with the new mass added to it only by the amount of gravity which the new mass already had before it hit the earth. What increases when gravity increases on the earth is simply the warping of spacetime around the earth. Also, the way energy is conserved when something hits the earth is the energy in kinetic form simply converts into energy in heat form upon impact.

Here is a good website explaining some of this.

It is incorrect, because any mass at rest is not zero energy, but huge amounts of energy, because of e=mc2 (superscript 2). Also virtual-particle pairs in vacuum fluctuations are not electrons and positrons. Vacuum fluctuations produce only a virtual positive-energy particle and a virtual negative-energy particle, which then come back together and disappear without releasing any energy. Electrons and positrons, on the other hand, are both non-virtual particles, and are both positive energy (their positive energies simply have a different electric charge), and when they come together, as matter and antimatter, they produce huge amounts of positive energy.

There are still so many possibilities when dealing with the Big Bang. One possibility is that a back hole in one universe creates a universe in another.

That's impossible, because black holes don't contain anywhere near enough mass to create an entire universe, nor do they ever leave this universe; they are simply a single star that has collapsed on itself and become a very dense ball of matter which will forever remain in this universe, just as any mass subsequently added to the ball also has to forever remain in this universe, because of the first law of thermodynamics.

Another is that The Big Crunch could be the creation of another universe (or even this one based on some quantum theories).

There is no such thing as the Big Crunch; the universe will expand forever.

Time appears to have been created at the Big bang or was almost not present. In other words, the univerrse could have a beginning but also be eternal.

Anything that has a beginning cannot have existed from all eternity. And the Big Bang singularity could not have created itself because of the first law of thermodynamics.

If you could step outside the universe, it would look like some static structure that does not move or change because we are outside of time. This could "always" exist eternally.

If you could step outside of the universe, then spacetime would have to exist outside of the universe, for otherwise there would be no space to step into and no time in which to register the experience of what you were seeing. While the first law of thermodynamics requires that the universe will always exist, because of its expansion and entropy it will eventually become completely dark and extremely cold everywhere, so that eventually no life will be able to exist anywhere in the universe.

You could say that the universe is "God" and make the same claim.

The universe must be different than God because, unlike God, the universe cannot have always existed, because of entropy.


Romans 1:20 is not a God of the gaps argument, but a God of everything that exists proof. Because by logic, God has to be the source of the Big Bang singularity. And just as God's ancient predictions regarding Christ's first coming were all fulfilled perfectly (Luke 24:44-48), so God's predictions in Revelation chapters 6-18 regarding the coming tribulation could begin to be fulfilled in our near future.
 
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Aibrean

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Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

I would encourage you to read the whole chapter.

These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Things may not be incredibly obvious relating to God's plan and you may not get directly what you ask for but you are important and you are part of a chain. Your life can impact other people's lives.
 
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Quath

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You lost faith in God because he didn't tell you the lottery numbers?

You can't be serious.
I lost faith in God because I saw no proof that God exists. Other Christians told me that God answers prayers, so I made a simple one. My prayers were not answered. I even looked to see if prayers worked to heal people in studies. My conclusion is that God does not affect our world by prayer. That is what led me to lose my faith in God. He was equivalent to Santa Claus at that point.

I just proposed one manner to test the God hypothesis. I tried many others. I just wannted some kind of physical proof that God was real and not just take the truth from heresay.

Now if God is the version who sends people to hell for the wrong belief, then he must make the right path clear or else he will have to be the most evil villian in existance.

"Believing the bible" cannot mean ignoring the literary genre of the texts any more than it can mean ignoring some of the words. The genre is as much part of the text as the words are.
In a sense, I agree. For example, the Bible says that God is responsible for earthquakes and diseases. Is to mean that God sets these events off, or he built a system in which these things take place? The writers of the Bible seemed to see it the first way and we tend to see it the second. How can we act like we have better understanding than the people who wrote it for themselves?

True. It could be that the god Loki is real and was having fun with me. Or I could have appeared on an intergalactic show on alien practical jokes. So it does not prove anything 100% (which is common scientifically). However, it is useful for invalidating some theories. One theory is that God answers all prayers. This was proven false. So I know that if God exists, He is not the one that answers all prayers. So I at least learned that. So if someone says that God answers all prayers, I know that they don't know God. By this process, I can understand who is guessing at God.

What we see is religion under represented mostly among scientists, and there most extremely in biologists, which points not to the obsticle being intelligence or education, but a particular mode of thinking and set of assumptions.
I tend to agree. The mode appears to be the scientific method. All other methods of finding truth have bene shown to be inconsistent or unrevealing. You can easily see then when a Muslim and a Buddist argue without using material proof. There is no concensus and just a lot of assertions.

I found this interesting. If this version of God exists, then it really does not matter if you believe or not. There is no eternal punishment for the wrong choice. I guess the main problem I see is why life in the afterlife is different from life on Earth. For example, if knowing God exists for 10 years on Earth prepares me for Heaven, why not 10 years on the afterlife doing the same?

The second law of thermodynamics has been proven by observation.
Every theory has limits on where it applies. Newtonian physics is for slow matter without too much mass. General relativity works everywhere by at the quantum level and with a lot of uncertainity at black holes. Entropy works when we are dealing with large number of particles in a statistical sense in an expanding universe.

An analogy to entropy is taking a lot of dice that are sitting with "1" showing. If you roll all these dice, the odds are that "1" will not be on every die. However, roll it enough and you will eventually get all "1"s again and have reset the entropy.

We know that the universe could not have come out of nothing because of the first law of thermodynamics, and because the universe has a net positive energy of 4x10**69 Joules.
I remember talking to an astronomer and he told me that a star could spring into existance with no net energy gained or lost to the universe. The energy it would take to bring everything out of the gravity well would equal to the energy cost of creating it in the first place. The energy you are seeing is not taking into the negative energy due to gravity. Ask some astronomers about this. If they have studied inflation or general relativity, they will verify this.

And Einstein knew that if you have two events that are connected by something faster than light, then in some reference frame, the ordering of the events are reversed. So if one impacts or causes the other to changes, then we have lost the ability to say that cause happens before the effect. That is why Einsteon did not like this "spooky action at a distance."

One theory of the Big Bang has it coming into existance frim a 0 dimensional point into a full infinite 3 dimensional world. Some assume that dimensions unroll in some local spots and may unroll differently in other parts of the universe. As of now, when we measure the universe, it appears to be flat and have no center. One explanation is that it is infinite in all directions and completely filled with matter. Another is that inflation has smoothed any flatness away without knowing of the universe was really flat large scale but with it being possible.

I was talking about the net change in energy. The rest masses are the same vbefore and afterwards so that does not need to come into the picture.

Virtual particles can be electron/positron pairs. They exist for as long as the Heisenburg uncertainity allows and then disappear.

It is not about the mass, but about the curvature of spacetime arguments. It costs 0 energy to create a universe, so a black hole could be a way to pinch off a piece of our universe and blossom it into a whole new one that could be made of different physics. However, we need a quantum theory of general relativity to know if this is the case.

There is no such thing as the Big Crunch; the universe will expand forever.
By current estimates we assume that. Howeverm dark energy was reecently discovered. Maybe stheing else will be discovered that counteracts dark energy or dark energy reverses itself once the universe density drops below a certain value?

Anything that has a beginning cannot have existed from all eternity. And the Big Bang singularity could not have created itself because of the first law of thermodynamics.
Eternity means existing for all of time. So the creation of time both has a beginning and has existed for all of eternity.

So is faith in Zeus, God, New Age mysticism, and Vishnu are all equal since people want these gods to exist. I don't think that wanting for something to exist really relates to whhat does exist. I don't see how faith can be meaningful since every contradictory religion uses it.
 
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Aibrean

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It's your decision to reject Christ. That is what it boils down to. I can't "make" you believe. It's the power of the Holy Spirit that does that.

There is the parable of the sower:


You are expecting God to do something for you. He already has. Instead of asking for him to show himself, you should be working on strengthening your faith. For a believer we fellowship with other believers, partake in the sacraments, strive to do good, etc. God works within us to do good. Our sinful nature drives us to want to do evil. Do you have a conscience? How did it get there?
 
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ebia

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I just proposed one manner to test the God hypothesis. I tried many others. I just wannted some kind of physical proof that God was real and not just take the truth from heresay.
Those two are not the only possibilities.

Now if God is the version who sends people to hell for the wrong belief, then he must make the right path clear or else he will have to be the most evil villian in existance.
That sets up several false assumptions, not the least that things are arbitrary.
1) God doesn't "send people to hell for wrong belief", but rather is putting all creation to rights. Those who do not put their trust in him are necessarly excluded from that.
2) You assume that God is not doing everything appropriate to reveal himself, assuming that God must reveal himself in the way you choose and that such a revelation is possible and is possible in a way that wouldn't run counter to the overall goal.


A biblical viewpoint doesn't see that as an either/or but a both/and. Seeing the two as mutually exclusive is the modern problem.


But nobody in practice says that God answers all prayer - at least in the simplistic way suggested. So you've eliminated one from an infinite number of strawmen, leaving - an infinite number still to go!

I tend to agree. The mode appears to be the scientific method. All other methods of finding truth have bene shown to be inconsistent or unrevealing.
That's the enlightenment claim, but it's just as much of an unsubstantiated claim as anything else.
 
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Joveia

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There will actually be people, I believe, to whom this will apply. People who die never hearing about Christ may have a chance at getting into heaven - 1 Peter 3:18-20.

But why does this life matter so much?

I think it's because of the way free will works. People often point out, if we have free will, then why do we almost always stay the same? Introverts don't suddenly wake up and become extroverts, and evildoers tend not to become saints...

I think something that people miss in free will is that it has a really strong 'settling' aspect. Part of free will is the ability not to be constantly 'up in the air' about what you're going to do, but to 'settle' your choices in a certain personality trait. So instead of 'umming' and 'ahhing' about whether to be nice, a nice person can choose to 'settle' their choices in niceness, and evildoer can 'settle' their choices in evil, so they no longer think about changing. When we choose to 'settle' our choices and not constantly go over and rethink them, those choices become our personality that our friends easily identify (e.g. extrovert, quiet, etc.)

So free will is sort of like a snowball rolling down a hill, gathering up snow. We mostly decide what personality to have when we're young, and then at some point we 'settle' into a groove and almost never change - although we theoretically can.

It's the same with going to heaven and God's grace. A key requirement to enter heaven is that you're willing to love God with every fibre of your being. With all your heart, soul, strength, and mind.

If you haven't shown much interest in doing this on earth, then the 'snowball' has gathered a lot of snow by the time you die, and you're pretty 'settled' into not doing it, and into just doing your own thing for an eternity.

So I think you can change your mind after you die, but in practice no one decides to switch to heaven who rejected a clear presentation of the gospel (Mark 16:16), because the 'snowball' has gathered too much snow the other way (in favour of doing their own thing).
 
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Quath

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Oh my....you ARE serious.

You did lose faith in God because he didn't tell you the lottery numbers.

Before you go into all that mumbo jumbo think of how ridiculous that sounds.
Think of how it sounds to say that people believe in something due to no logical reason or evidence. The more I searched the less evidence I found. For example, most Christians I talked to said that God communicated to them through prayers. But if you look at what people "hear" from God, they are mutually exclusive. For example, ask many Christians to pray to God for guidance on mercy killing, gay marriage, pre-maritial sex, war in Iraq, torture of enemies, and stem cell research, you will get many contradictory messages that Christians say come from God. So either God contradicts Himself or people are imagining they are talking to God. These are the tests that helped me lose my faith. The lottery example is just but one test.

It's your decision to reject Christ. That is what it boils down to. I can't "make" you believe. It's the power of the Holy Spirit that does that.
Do you choose to not believe in the tooth fairy? Can you make yourself believe it is real? That is where I am coming from. God has the same evidence as the tooth fairy does. I can not make myself believe in God no more than I can make myself believe in the tooth fairy.

Your (1) sounds like an Orwellian way to say the same thing. People are separated by belief. Those who believe wrongly are sent to a horrible place of torment according to the Bible. Now if God is not like this, then we are picking and choosing Bible verses to believe willy-nilly to suit what we want to be true.

(2) could be possible, but God should know it will take real evidence to be convincing. If I were not swayed by real evidence, then I have millions of religions to choose from. So either God will try real evidence or will give up on me.

But nobody in practice says that God answers all prayer - at least in the simplistic way suggested. So you've eliminated one from an infinite number of strawmen, leaving - an infinite number still to go!
But it let me know that people who said this was true were lying. If they got this wrong, what else did they get wrong. They were no longer an authority on truth.

I guess I have settled in a life of needing proof before I believe in something. If I die and see there is a heaven and God, then I will instantly believe. If that were God's main requirement, then it should be no worse than a deathbed confession.
 
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ebia

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(Note: I'm off on holiday tomorrow morning, so I may not respond to any further questions before I go).

Your (1) sounds like an Orwellian way to say the same thing. People are separated by belief.
Not by belief, but by trusting in God's way of doing things (faith). That's not an arbitrary requirement, but inherently essential because our way of doing things is not compatible with a creation put right.

Those who believe wrongly are sent to a horrible place of torment according to the Bible.
That's not actually what the bible says. The bible actually doesn't say very much about the fate of those who choose not to be part of the Kingdom, and what it does say is said in metaphor, parable, and coded apocalyptic language. The idea of a "horrible place of [perpetual] torment" owes itself to medieval fantasy set in stone by Dante's liturature and some Italian paintings backed up in modern times by some woodenly literal reading of texts that would not be read in that way in the 1st century and ignoring other metaphors that speak of, for instance, instant distruction (eg chaff thrown on the winnowing fire is gone in whoosh, rubbish thrown on the smoldering Jerusalem rubbish heap Gehenna is burned up).

Now if God is not like this, then we are picking and choosing Bible verses to believe willy-nilly to suit what we want to be true.
No, we are rejecting (selective) medieval fantasy and (selective) modern wooden literalism to turn to what the bible actually says.

The bible makes clear that those who reject the Kingdom will be excluded from it. And that's about it; the bible is much more interested in the Kingdom itself than the alternative. Most of the few texts that do speak of that exclusion are specifically aimed at those who think they are included.

(2) could be possible, but God should know it will take real evidence to be convincing. If I were not swayed by real evidence, then I have millions of religions to choose from. So either God will try real evidence or will give up on me.
You are demanding that God meet your particular cultural biases regardless of whether that is feasible and compatible with what has to happen for you and all creation. That's like somebody shipwreaked turning away the rescue helicopter because he only trusts boats, regardless that there is no way for a boat to get there.


But it let me know that people who said this was true were lying.
The number of such people is zero. Nobody says "God always gives anything you ask in the form you ask it".

I guess I have settled in a life of needing proof before I believe in something.
Well, no you haven't. Nobody actually lives like that, and it wouldn't be possible if one tried. One is necessarly selective about the things one needs evidence for and what sort of evidence one needs or one would never get anywhere.

If I die and see there is a heaven and God, then I will instantly believe. If that were God's main requirement, then it should be no worse than a deathbed confession.
You are still assuming that faith is an arbitrary criteria, rather than an intrinsicly necessary requirement.
 
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ebia

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What makes believers so sure they are right?
The same sorts of things that makes anybody else think they are right.

Please read the rules for Exploring Christianity - the only non-Christian who may post in a thread is the Opening Poster. You need to begin your own thread if you have a question.
 
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Every theory has limits on where it applies.

Entropy is not a theory, but a proven fact, and it applies to everything physical. Because of entropy, the universe could not have arisen from something physical which had always existed outside of the universe. Instead, the universe could only have come into existence by the eternal power of God (Romans 1:20).

Newtonian physics is for slow matter without too much mass.

Newtonian physics is also for fast matter. Also, there is no such thing in Newtonian physics as matter with too much mass.

General relativity works everywhere by at the quantum level and with a lot of uncertainity at black holes.

General relativity works everywhere including at the quantum level and at black holes.

Entropy works when we are dealing with large number of particles in a statistical sense in an expanding universe.

Entropy works in everything physical.


Actually, that is not an analogy of entropy. And, really, no analogy is needed because entropy itself can be seen quite plainly in everyday life. For example, a hot plate set on a counter will eventually cool down, and it will never heat up again unless some outside source of energy is applied to it.

I remember talking to an astronomer and he told me that a star could spring into existance with no net energy gained or lost to the universe.

That astronomer was wrong, if he meant that a star can appear suddenly out of nothing, for that would violate the first law of thermodynamics. For the same reason, the universe could not have sprung out of nothing; God had to have created the universe by his eternal power (Romans 1:20).

That astronomer was right, if he meant that stars can spring into existence once enough already-existing hydrogen gas has come together and become condensed enough by gravity to become hot enough to ignite the thermonuclear process which lights up stars.

The energy it would take to bring everything out of the gravity well would equal to the energy cost of creating it in the first place.

A gravity well is not energy itself, but simply a warping of spacetime. What is causing the gravity well of a star is the mass of the star itself, so that it is not possible to take the star out of its gravity well because its gravity well continues to surround it no matter where it goes in space. Also, because of the first law of thermodynamics, there is no energy cost to the universe when a huge hydrogen-gas ball ignites by thermonuclear reactions and becomes a star.

The energy you are seeing is not taking into the negative energy due to gravity.

The only negative energy due to gravity is in black holes, and that negative energy is not gravity itself, but virtual negative-energy particles which were drawn into the black holes while their simultaneously-created partners, virtual positive-energy particles, were thrown out into space. These virtual particle pairs are not formed by gravity, but by vacuum fluctuations in the underying, zero-point energy of the universe. And because they are only formed in positive-negative pairs, they never violate the first law of thermodynamics.

Ask some astronomers about this. If they have studied inflation or general relativity, they will verify this.

No astronomer will verify that the first law of thermodynamics can be violated. The universe could not have created itself from nothing; God had to have created the universe by his eternal power (Romans 1:20).


What Einstein thought was that the idea of quantum entanglement had to be wrong because under his own relativity law it is not possible for anything in the universe to move faster than light. Einstein saw the idea of quantum entanglement as proof that quantum mechanics was on the wrong track and needed much more work before it could properly describe reality.


The universe is still expanding, and it has only been expanding for some 13 billion years, so it cannot possibly be infinite. Also, it is not completely filled with matter, but contains huge voids between the galaxies, just as there are voids between the stars of galaxies.

I was talking about the net change in energy. The rest masses are the same vbefore and afterwards so that does not need to come into the picture.

When an object hits the earth, there can be no net change of energy, because of the first law of thermodynamics. Instead, the kinetic energy of the object before it hits the earth simply changes into heat energy upon impact.

Virtual particles can be electron/positron pairs.

That is incorrect, because with regard to electron/positron pairs, virtual particles can be only virtual-electron/virtual-positron pairs, which are not the same as real electrons and real positrons. They are not the same because virtual particles consist of pairs of virtual positive-energy and virtual negative-energy particles, whereas real electrons and real positrons both have real positive energy (simply with a different electric charge). Also, when virtual positive-energy and virtual negative-energy particles annihilate each other, they give off no energy at all, while when real electrons and real positrons annihilate each other they give off positive energy. In both cases, there is no net creation or destruction of energy, as this is forbidden by the first law of thermodynamics. The positive energy given off by annihilating real electrons and real positrons is no more than the positive energy which was already contained by the real electrons and real positrons before their annihilation.

They exist for as long as the Heisenburg uncertainity allows and then disappear.

That is true for virtual particles only, not for real particles.


It requires tremendous amounts of net positive energy/mass to create a universe with anything in it. Our universe contains 4x10**69 Joules net positive energy/mass because so much exists within it. Also, nothing in a black hole ever leaves this universe, for it simply becomes part of the ball of superdense matter at the center of the black hole, which ball never leaves this universe because of the first law of thermodynamics.


Dark energy is the same as the zero-point energy which fills all space, so that as the amount of space increases as the universe expands, this energy passes through more total space, causing more total pressure in space, thereby causing the rate of the expansion of the universe to increase. Nothing in the universe can possibly counteract this energy because it is already the lowest point of energy possible, and because it exists at every point in space throughout the universe. Also, this energy can never "reverse" itself because in net it is always perfectly balanced between virtual positive energy and virtual negative energy.

Eternity means existing for all of time. So the creation of time both has a beginning and has existed for all of eternity.

The creation of spacetime in the Big Bang could not be the beginning of all dimensions of time, because the Big Bang singularity had to exist in some dimension of time before the Big Bang occurred. Also, because the Big Bang singularity could not have created itself because of the first law of thermodynamics, something outside of the Big Bang singularity, God, had to have created it, and God has to exist in some dimension of time because without time there can be no change, no action performed, such as God creating the Big Bang singularity by his eternal power (Romans 1:20).
 
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Quath

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Not by belief, but by trusting in God's way of doing things (faith). That's not an arbitrary requirement, but inherently essential because our way of doing things is not compatible with a creation put right.
Why not trust in Zeus's way? Or in Odin's way? Or Ba'al's way? Or in the way of Mother Nature? It seems very arbitrary to pick omne of the gods and live you life as just that one (or set) is real without anything else helping you make a decision.

I remembeer hearing sermons on hell. The preacher would quote passages like Matther 26:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." This worried me when I was Christian because lots of preachers who said they were preaching the word of God claimed that nonbelief results in torture. If this is not the case, why does God allow for people to pervert His word? We know that parts of the Bible have been changed, modified and added. So it seems that if the Holy Book is suppose to be some kind of proof of God, then He doesn't care much for keeping it correct. This means the whole message could easily be corrupted.

If there is no punishment in the afterlife for nonbelievers, then God can hide all he wants from direct evidence. But if salvation depends on it to keep from a punishment, then your analogy is more like a quiet, invisible helicoptor coming and not letting anyone know it is there to save them. But the person is being sent messages thgat there are invisible helicoptors all over the island, some invisible bridges, and even some invisible boats. Good luck to that poor soul.

The number of such people is zero. Nobody says "God always gives anything you ask in the form you ask it".
But they say stuff like "Prayers for healing always work." (Christian Science) Or they say, "If you pray with a pure heart for something that only gains the spirit, it will work." But I have not seen prayer work in any form. It does not work as a communication tool to God because alll messages are contrary. It does not affect health, wealth or external knowledge. Prayer to God has the same effects as prayers to a rock.

Well, no you haven't. Nobody actually lives like that, and it wouldn't be possible if one tried. One is necessarly selective about the things one needs evidence for and what sort of evidence one needs or one would never get anywhere.
I live with confidence levels. I know nothing can be proven 100%, but I do accept things in the 90+% levels.

You are still assuming that faith is an arbitrary criteria, rather than an intrinsicly necessary requirement.
Faith proves any pseudoscience, any religion, and any conspriacy theory. It does not help make any choices. It just seals the deal for choices made.

I guess all I can say is that scientists who understand entropy can envision it and are working with the concept. So either you are smarter and more knowledgable than all the general relativists and cosmologists who are working in this field, or maybe you don't understand entropy as well as you think you do.

Newtonian physics is also for fast matter. Also, there is no such thing in Newtonian physics as matter with too much mass.
Special relativity is for fast moving objects (Newtonian energy concepts break down). General relativity is for massive objects. (Newton's gravity can not handle things like frame dragging.)

General relativity works everywhere including at the quantum level and at black holes.
Do a search for "general relativity quantum" and you will find that this is wrong. For example, from Wikipedia: "However, it is still an open question as to how the concepts of quantum theory can be reconciled with those of general relativity." General relativity does not handle the singularity of a black hole well. It is expected that a quantum general relativity theory will help this along.

That is conservation of energy, not entropy. Entropy is used to describe how you can extract useful work from available energy. One great example is a box with two chambers with a turbine connecting the two. One side has a gas and the other side is a vacuum. The gas flows over the turbine and energy is extracted until pressure is the same in both sides of the box. The overall temperature decreases from the extraction of the energy.

So if there is a hole between the two boxes, atome can flow freely between the two. If we randomly get a large number on one side more than the other, we can plug the hole and let the turbine take more energy out. This is one way to violate entrophy. It is better known as "Maxwell's Demon."

It does not violate the first law. Energy is conserved due to the negative energy of gravity.

It means it can happen in a region of no matter. The probelm is that it is statistically extremely small.

You can take it apart an atom at a time.

No astronomer will verify that the first law of thermodynamics can be violated. The universe could not have created itself from nothing; God had to have created the universe by his eternal power (Romans 1:20).
I agree. That is why the can conclude that gravity works out to be negative energy.

Right, so spooky action at a distance is some communication moving faster than light. This means that if we measure particle A and it changes particle B in one reference frame, we could easily claim that measuring particle B changed particle A in another reference frame. It means we can do an experiment today that will decide if a particle chooses a path billions of years ago. Einstein was shown to be wrong and spooky action at a distance is reality.

One possibile way to visualize this is to imagine parts of the universe are under compression while others are expanding. We can not see beyond the visible universe, but we know from gravity effects that there must be more.

When an object hits the earth, there can be no net change of energy, because of the first law of thermodynamics. Instead, the kinetic energy of the object before it hits the earth simply changes into heat energy upon impact.
The kinetic energy comes from gravity. The gravity well of the Earth subtly changes when an object falls down.

I think we may be agreeing here but using different words. I agree that virtual particles do not have positive energy. However, they do affect things through gravity and other effects. (This may not be the part we agree with.)

We don't know enough to really talk about "before" the Big Bang, but it is recognized that the "time" dimension is probably very different. Here is a small blurb on this from "Ask an Astronomer."
 
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