Know....See.....Hear

pjnlsn · May 14, 2013

twinc said:
no problem to me but a huge problem to you and most others it seems for you and I do not nor have existed as physical/material which we have fallen into as maya[illusion] and have accepted as reality - and stamping your feet in outrage to prove this merely proves that the sensation of hardnesss and firmness and solidity is in you and not where you are trying to prove it is - twinc

It is unlikely and/or irrelevant that the entirety of the universe is an illusion. And at the very least, it's not proven. Nor is it actually a specifically defined claim.

More likely is that the brain is simply capable of interposing fantasy onto sensory information, and that you believe what you believe largely because of what could be termed emotional bias.

twinc · May 15, 2013

Ana the Ist said:
It seems to me that if you're going to deny all which is obvious and claim reality is actually hidden behind some "illusion", you had better come up with some reasoning which is stronger than "I think it is so".

so we shall presently tackle reality which is very loosely and frequently quoted as if understood - illusions are a reality for the lofty mountains,flowing rivers,rolling seas and green fields are not really constituted as we see them.Their existence is certainly undeniable,but their appearance as "lumps of matter" is fundamentally illusory - take for example the study of modern scientific geography reveals the extra-ordinary fact that millions of people are really walking on this globe with their heads suspended downwards with their feet clinging to rather than resting on the earth - more later - meanwhile come home now rather than later or never - twinc

pjnlsn · May 15, 2013

twinc said:
so we shall presently tackle reality which is very loosely and frequently quoted as if understood - illusions are a reality for the lofty mountains,flowing rivers,rolling seas and green fields are not really constituted as we see them.Their existence is certainly undeniable,but their appearance as "lumps of matter" is fundamentally illusory - take for example the study of modern scientific geography reveals the extra-ordinary fact that millions of people are really walking on this globe with their heads suspended downwards with their feet clinging to rather than resting on the earth - more later - meanwhile come home now rather than later or never - twinc

Even these examples aren't truly illusory. The mountains and the rivers *are* lumps of matter. It just so happens that matter is a collection of atoms which are minuscule cores of protons and neutrons, whose boundaries are maintained by electric fields. And while it's ridiculous to say that a view of the earth from space is "modern scientific geography" as though it's some kind of grand feat, the human view of the world where up and down are constants is not really an illusion. It's just that the human view of world is oriented along the lines of gravity. And while people without knowing that the earth is a sphere or being able to view it from space might be inclined to say that the earth is just a wide, flat expanse...this is not because that part of reality itself is an illusion, it's because people are inclined to make snap-judgements, and to generalize.

JYJ · May 20, 2013

twinc said:
can something be known,seen or heard without the presence of a knower,se'er or hearer - twinc

I don't understand your question. Re-phrase please.

pjnlsn · May 20, 2013

JYJ said:
I don't understand your question. Re-phrase please.

Just one of those older philosophical questions. You know, like "if a tree falls in the forest, and no-one's around to hear it, does it still make a sound?"

JYJ · May 20, 2013

pjnlsn said:
Just one of those older philosophical questions. You know, like "if a tree falls in the forest, and no-one's around to hear it, does it still make a sound?"

OK then I'll guess and say "no".

pjnlsn · May 20, 2013

JYJ said:
OK then I'll guess and say "no".

Well.....i'd say yes. I mean, there's no reason for reality to cease to exist just because a person isn't nearby. While such human-centric views of everything are something people are attracted to.

AECellini · May 20, 2013

if a tree falls in the forest, sound is always produced (assuming a fluid medium like air is present). whether someone or something perceives the sound produced is irrelevant to the production of the waves themselves, which have physical significance.

likewise, removing conscious agents from the universe entirely does not affect the existence of physical things (or the universe as a whole), rather the perception of such things is affected (as there is no one to perceive).

Gadarene · May 20, 2013

AECellini said:
if a tree falls in the forest, sound is always produced (assuming a fluid medium like air is present). whether someone or something perceives the sound produced is irrelevant to the production of the waves themselves, which have physical significance.

likewise, removing conscious agents from the universe entirely does not affect the existence of physical things (or the universe as a whole), rather the perception of such things is affected (as there is no one to perceive).

And you know this how?

AECellini · May 20, 2013

if you're asking why there would still be a sound, then let me start by asking would you agree that the tree falling would cause some sort of vibrational disturbance to the medium around it?

Gadarene · May 20, 2013

AECellini said:
if you're asking why there would still be a sound, then let me start by asking would you agree that the tree falling would cause some sort of vibrational disturbance to the medium around it?

I agree that that is what is usually claimed to be perceived.

You may want to count your assumptions, perhaps.

AECellini · May 20, 2013

i admit it's quite the leap.

JYJ · May 20, 2013

AECellini said:
if you're asking why there would still be a sound, then let me start by asking would you agree that the tree falling would cause some sort of vibrational disturbance to the medium around it?

Yeah. Are pressure waves in the audio range sound or is sound a perception of those waves by a brain?

Here is another question that has been worrying me lately.

If an atheist speaks in a forest where no Christian can hear is he still wrong?

pjnlsn · May 20, 2013

JYJ said:
Yeah. Are pressure waves in the audio range sound or is sound a perception of those waves by a brain?

Here is another question that has been worrying me lately.

If an atheist speaks in a forest where no Christian can hear is he still wrong?

Pressure waves exist with or without any particular perception of them, and if an object striking another makes a sound in the presence of a person, it will make a sound when no one is nearby.

I suppose it would be convenient for a religious person to believe that reality is in some way fundamentally illusory, for most of what they believe is illusory, strictly speaking. That is to, say, it is imagined, or connected to events which themselves need not have anything to do with their religion, and the entity at the forefront of Christianity need not exist nor is it likely to, while some may be attracted to the idea of imaginary reality.

JYJ · May 21, 2013

pjnlsn said:
Pressure waves exist with or without any particular perception of them, and if an object striking another makes a sound in the presence of a person, it will make a sound when no one is nearby.

I suppose it would be convenient for a religious person to believe that reality is in some way fundamentally illusory, for most of what they believe is illusory, strictly speaking. That is to, say, it is imagined, or connected to events which themselves need not have anything to do with their religion, and the entity at the forefront of Christianity need not exist nor is it likely to, while some may be attracted to the idea of imaginary reality.

I am of the opinion that being a religious believer is inconsistent with what you envision. The believer seems to want things to be easy, clear and non-controversial.

pjnlsn · May 21, 2013

JYJ said:
I am of the opinion that being a religious believer is inconsistent with what you envision. The believer seems to want things to be easy, clear and non-controversial.

I was talking about you, actually.

In any case, it's true what I said.

twinc · May 31, 2013

pjnlsn said:
Pressure waves exist with or without any particular perception of them, and if an object striking another makes a sound in the presence of a person, it will make a sound when no one is nearby.

I suppose it would be convenient for a religious person to believe that reality is in some way fundamentally illusory, for most of what they believe is illusory, strictly speaking. That is to, say, it is imagined, or connected to events which themselves need not have anything to do with their religion, and the entity at the forefront of Christianity need not exist nor is it likely to, while some may be attracted to the idea of imaginary reality.

if there is no one present to hear there is no sound - when Christians pray they are not praying to empty space that cannot see or hear or help them - btw reality cannot be imaginary - twinc

pjnlsn · May 31, 2013

twinc said:
if there is no one present to hear there is no sound - when Christians pray they are not praying to empty space that cannot see or hear or help them - btw reality cannot be imaginary - twinc

If there is no one present to hear, there are still the ordinary pressure waves. The word sound I suppose has the small implication of something that is actively being heard, but no, the pressure waves still exist, even if there is no one there to hear it.

And when religious people pray, they're not doing it for nothing, but yes they are praying to an empty space. The concordant feelings and emotions of religious acts are there, but (strictly speaking) these are inside their head.

And yes, I suppose reality can't be imaginary.

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