knocking down misconceptions

naotmaa · Jul 28, 2005

For awhile now I've noticed a lot more anger between glbt people and christians. Not all gay people ad not all christians, but quite a few. I'm sure gay marriage becoming a rather big issue has something to do with it. Both sides feel passionately about this issue and understandably so. But during many heated debates I've heard in real life and a couple on these forums, I've come to realize how little christians and gays seem to understand about each other. I think there are many misconceptions and stereotypes that both sides seem to have for each other. I know some gay people who are convinced that christians hate them just because they are opposed to gay marriage. I used to think that all christians who believed that homosexuality wwas a sin were bigots. I now know that this this not always true, mostly because of talking to my own christians friends and these forums right here. I also know that there are some christians who believe that gays are sex obsessed, child predators who have chosen to be gay.

When it comes down to it, a lot of gay people and christians have these misconceptions because about each other because they have not been given the chance to see each as a diverse group of people who thinkly differently from each other and who can be kind, thoughtful people just like anyone else. I'm not saying they should come to an agreement on marriage, adoption or anything like that. Chances are we wont anytime soon and its not the point. The point is almost everytime I see a debate come up, people will start saying things "gays are tryin to force their lifestyle on us anyway they can", or "christians are crazy bigots who hate gays". Personally, I think that negative generalizations about me or anyone else are much more harmful than saying you simply disagree with homosexuality or that you simply disafree with what a christian says. So I propose a nice discussion on what to do about it.

My question: Is there a way christians and gay people can reach out to each other and really knock down these misconceptions? Does your church or glbt group try to do this? Is it impossible?

P.S. I'm sorry for starting another gay thread.

ebia · Jul 28, 2005

People who are uncomfortable about Gays might start by watching the Australian film "Strange Bedfellows" http://www.strangebedfellows.com.au/. Very funny, and making exactly this point.

Toboe · Jul 29, 2005

naotmaa said:
My question: Is there a way christians and gay people can reach out to each other and really knock down these misconceptions? Does your church or glbt group try to do this? Is it impossible?

P.S. I'm sorry for starting another gay thread.

I don't think that will ever really happen. The most people who believe gays won't change and they will pass on their hatred on to other people just like any other prejudice, and it will most likely go on and on. It would take something big for the majority of christians to accept gays. I say that having a mother who personality thinks that all gays are evil and trying to corrupt America .

peepnklown · Jul 29, 2005

If you live in a free society then you have to ask yourself a serious question. Do you believe that your religious beliefs should segregate people?

SackLunch · Jul 29, 2005

naotmaa said:
For awhile now I've noticed a lot more anger between glbt people and christians. Not all gay people ad not all christians, but quite a few. I'm sure gay marriage becoming a rather big issue has something to do with it. Both sides feel passionately about this issue and understandably so. But during many heated debates I've heard in real life and a couple on these forums, I've come to realize how little christians and gays seem to understand about each other. I think there are many misconceptions and stereotypes that both sides seem to have for each other. I know some gay people who are convinced that christians hate them just because they are opposed to gay marriage. I used to think that all christians who believed that homosexuality wwas a sin were bigots. I now know that this this not always true, mostly because of talking to my own christians friends and these forums right here. I also know that there are some christians who believe that gays are sex obsessed, child predators who have chosen to be gay.

When it comes down to it, a lot of gay people and christians have these misconceptions because about each other because they have not been given the chance to see each as a diverse group of people who thinkly differently from each other and who can be kind, thoughtful people just like anyone else. I'm not saying they should come to an agreement on marriage, adoption or anything like that. Chances are we wont anytime soon and its not the point. The point is almost everytime I see a debate come up, people will start saying things "gays are tryin to force their lifestyle on us anyway they can", or "christians are crazy bigots who hate gays". Personally, I think that negative generalizations about me or anyone else are much more harmful than saying you simply disagree with homosexuality or that you simply disafree with what a christian says. So I propose a nice discussion on what to do about it.

My question: Is there a way christians and gay people can reach out to each other and really knock down these misconceptions? Does your church or glbt group try to do this? Is it impossible?

P.S. I'm sorry for starting another gay thread.

As a Christian, my personal policy is to treat every human being with the respect and dignity they deserve. At the same time, as long as there is a God in Heaven, no homosexual group will EVER get me to say that homosexuality is a legitimate lifestyle. God said what He said, He said it several times in fact, and He does not change.

It is not an issue of whether or not we "understand" each other. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what homosexuality is. It's not an issue of fear or "homophobia" as they fallaciously put it. It is plain and simple: God sets His face against anyone who is homosexual.

But having said that, I have to emphasize that the way out is simply through confessing your sins and asking Jesus Christ to come into your heart and life. Turning away from homosexuality is what God requires, and even if a person struggles with homosexuality as a new Christian, as long as the true effort is being made to turn away from the sin, God will honor that.

Romans 1:24-32
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

dmp · Jul 29, 2005

I noticed you seperated 'christians' and 'homosexuals'. That's a good thing to do, because homosexuality is a 'sin', based on the foundation of Christianity - The Bible. Nobody can be a christian and CHOOSE to participate in a sinful lifestyle. Can homosexuals be 'saved' (For lack of a better term). I suppose. However, they would need to be looking for healing and deliverance from their sin. It's just the same with..hm...a habitual liar. Habitual liars can be 'saved' - but as long as they keep lying, they are sinning. I believe God doesn't forgive willfull sin.

Gay people are no more evil than any other group of people. Homosexuality is a sin just like lying or murder or adultry or...name your pleasure.

The problem between 'real' christians and homosexual activists stems from Homosexuals trying to force their sexual preference down the throat of america. Homosexuals are obsessed with sex; clearly, as they use their sexual enjoyment as a means to DEFINE who they are. They march and protest and whine and cry attempting to gain sympathy.

Of course Homosexual behaviour is a choice. Aside from rape, nobody FORCES the participants to engage in their behaviour. That's just it - homosexuality is behaviour driven. There exists NO credible evidence to support the idea that homosexuals are 'victims' of their behaviour. There is NO credible evidence supporting the idea of a 'gay' gene.

Child molestation was brought up. Some studies have shown homosexuals are nearly TEN TIMES as likely to molest a child than any other 'group'. People who practice homosexuality; 2-3?% of the population, committ 25-40% of the molestations in America. Ergo, the statistical probability that homosexuals - relative to their sheer numbers - will molest children, is staggering.

The lifestyle is simply NOT compatable with Christianity. Lots of lifestyles are not, however - that's the beauty of Christ.
WE ALL have sin in our lives. Through prayer and education we can overcome much of it; and when we honestly confess our sins to Christ, and repent (Stop the sin), Christ is faithful to heal and forgive us.

I love homosexual people - just the same as I love liars and hookers and drug deales and murderers and politicians. I just hate their sin. I hate my sin, too, however.

dmp · Jul 29, 2005

Side note - If Christians are 'homophobic' because they cannot approve/condone a homosexual lifestyle, are homosexuals 'Christophobic' because they cannot approve/condone Christian beliefs?

Ledifni · Jul 29, 2005

Naotmaa, I think the replies in this thread have answered your question.

Yes, you're right that many of these people, outside of their lives as anti-homosexual campaigners, are good, decent people. You're right that they do not really know what they're doing. But the salient and sad fact is that they don't want to know.

They believe something very strongly, and to know the real-world results of their belief would force them to either abandon the belief (a painful and humbling experience) or see themselves as angry and cruel people (likewise painful and humbling). It is much simpler to ignore the real world and wrap oneself in the comfort of faith.

And homosexuals, as you observe, also misunderstand Christians. But this is for a different reason. Homosexuals did not choose to make enemies of Christians. Many homosexuals are Christians. The enmity and misconceptions you see result from the fact that many homosexuals have only seen the face of enmity from Christians.

If they assume that people who tirelessly attack and hurt them act the same in their daily lives, can you blame them? Can you blame the homosexual community for being unable to see that their attackers often have a good and decent side that is turned to straight people? I cannot.

rachelness · Jul 29, 2005

dmp said:
I noticed you seperated 'christians' and 'homosexuals'. That's a good thing to do, because homosexuality is a 'sin', based on the foundation of Christianity - The Bible. Nobody can be a christian and CHOOSE to participate in a sinful lifestyle. Can homosexuals be 'saved' (For lack of a better term). I suppose. However, they would need to be looking for healing and deliverance from their sin. It's just the same with..hm...a habitual liar. Habitual liars can be 'saved' - but as long as they keep lying, they are sinning. I believe God doesn't forgive willfull sin.

Gay people are no more evil than any other group of people. Homosexuality is a sin just like lying or murder or adultry or...name your pleasure.

The problem between 'real' christians and homosexual activists stems from Homosexuals trying to force their sexual preference down the throat of america. Homosexuals are obsessed with sex; clearly, as they use their sexual enjoyment as a means to DEFINE who they are. They march and protest and whine and cry attempting to gain sympathy.

Of course Homosexual behaviour is a choice. Aside from rape, nobody FORCES the participants to engage in their behaviour. That's just it - homosexuality is behaviour driven. There exists NO credible evidence to support the idea that homosexuals are 'victims' of their behaviour. There is NO credible evidence supporting the idea of a 'gay' gene.

Child molestation was brought up. Some studies have shown homosexuals are nearly TEN TIMES as likely to molest a child than any other 'group'. People who practice homosexuality; 2-3?% of the population, committ 25-40% of the molestations in America. Ergo, the statistical probability that homosexuals - relative to their sheer numbers - will molest children, is staggering.

The lifestyle is simply NOT compatable with Christianity. Lots of lifestyles are not, however - that's the beauty of Christ.
WE ALL have sin in our lives. Through prayer and education we can overcome much of it; and when we honestly confess our sins to Christ, and repent (Stop the sin), Christ is faithful to heal and forgive us.

I love homosexual people - just the same as I love liars and hookers and drug deales and murderers and politicians. I just hate their sin. I hate my sin, too, however.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can "love" somebody, yet hate who they are and how they live. That would be like saying; I love the Chinese restaurant down the road, but I hate the food they serve. It just doesn't make sense.

Toboe · Jul 29, 2005

dmp said:
Side note - If Christians are 'homophobic' because they cannot approve/condone a homosexual lifestyle, are homosexuals 'Christophobic' because they cannot approve/condone Christian beliefs?

They are not homophobic because they cannot aprove/condone they are homophobic because they try to force thier beliefes on people. And no you would not be 'Christophobic' because I don't think most gay people need to appove or condone "Your"(I'm saying your because not every Christian shares your same Idealology) Christian beliefes.

Ledifni · Jul 29, 2005

dmp said:
I love homosexual people - just the same as I love liars and hookers and drug deales and murderers and politicians. I just hate their sin. I hate my sin, too, however.

If I were a homosexual reading what you just posted, I would have a very hard time telling the difference between you, who say you "love homosexuals" but "hate their sin," and somebody who viciously hates homosexuals from the bottom of his heart.

dmp · Jul 29, 2005

rachelness said:
I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can "love" somebody, yet hate who they are and how they live. That would be like saying; I love the Chinese restaurant down the road, but I hate the food they serve. It just doesn't make sense.

It's pretty easy, and I think you'll understand if you ever have kids. I HATE when my daughter lies to me. I hate the lie. I love my daughter.

(shrug).

Homosexuality is NOT 'who somebody is' - it's 'how they behave'.

dmp · Jul 29, 2005

Ledifni said:
If I were a homosexual reading what you just posted, I would have a very hard time telling the difference between you, who say you "love homosexuals" but "hate their sin," and somebody who viciously hates homosexuals from the bottom of his heart.

Then perhaps you don't understand what you are reading. I'd be glad to try to clarify specific questions you may have. There's zero chance I could 'hate' people who practice homosexuality. I've 'gone to war' with homosexuals - loved homosexuals as best friends at times in my life - as my ONLY friends.

What I think you are feeling is this: "This guy 'dmp' doesn't embrace a homosexual lifestyle as legitimate. Therefore, his words upset me, because i believe in the homosexual lifestyle. When somebody doesn't agree with me, it's much easier to call them 'hateful' than to understand/agree/argue their points"

I hope I'm mistaken...

Toboe · Jul 29, 2005

I noticed you seperated 'christians' and 'homosexuals'. That's a good thing to do, because homosexuality is a 'sin', based on the foundation of Christianity - The Bible.

----------
Sorry not a fact.

Nobody can be a christian and CHOOSE to participate in a sinful lifestyle.

----------
But i though everyone sined so then every one lives a sinful lifestyle

Can homosexuals be 'saved' (For lack of a better term). I suppose. However, they would need to be looking for healing and deliverance from their sin. It's just the same with..hm...a habitual liar. Habitual liars can be 'saved' - but as long as they keep lying, they are sinning. I believe God doesn't forgive willfull sin.

---------
Show me where sexual orientation is the same thing as habitual lieing.
Gay people are no more evil than any other group of people. Homosexuality is a sin just like lying or murder or adultry or...name your pleasure.

The problem between 'real' christians and homosexual activists stems from Homosexuals trying to force their sexual preference down the throat of america.

-----------
It can be said the other way around. And its sexual orination thank you.

Homosexuals are obsessed with sex; clearly, as they use their sexual enjoyment as a means to DEFINE who they are. They march and protest and whine and cry attempting to gain sympathy.

---------
How dare you insult me like that you Bigot. I don't use my "sexual enjoyment"
to define who I am.

There exists NO credible evidence to support the idea that homosexuals are 'victims' of their behaviour. There is NO credible evidence supporting the idea of a 'gay' gene.

--------
I can state that there is no credible evidence that its not a choice and using me as an explame i did not choose to be Bisexual.

Child molestation was brought up. Some studies have shown homosexuals are nearly TEN TIMES as likely to molest a child than any other 'group'.

--------
Of couse you know that about 98% of childe molestation occures by White males

www.religioustolerance.org/hom_chil.htm+sexual+abuse+gays&hl=en&client=firefox-a said:
Example of Misinformation on Pederasty
A report by Focus on the Family attempts to disseminate a Christian interpretation of homosexuality in a manner that appears to be scientific and objective. 3 Their section Pedophilia and Age of Consent Laws includes statements such as:
bullet "Studies indicate that around 35 percent of pedophiles are homosexuals"
bullet "...a child molester is 17 times more likely to be homosexual than heterosexual"
bullet "...whereas heterosexual pedophiles commit an average of 20 acts of child molestation, for homosexuals the number is 150."
bullet "Thus, in terms of the likelihood and the extent of child sexual molestation, homosexuals, as a group, represent a serious threat."
They cite three reports to support their assertions. 3,4,5 They make two very serious errors in this section of their report:
bullet they assume that all males who molest boys are homosexuals. This is not true; they are generally pedophiles with no sexual attraction to other adults. And many, if not most, are sexually attracted to both boys and girls.
bullet they assume that all homosexuals are males. They find something negative that they feel they can say about male homosexuals and extend it to all homosexuals; lesbians included. It is also seen very commonly in discussions of AIDS. Such groups will typically condemn gays for levels of HIV infections which are higher than among heterosexuals; they ignore the fact that HIV infections among lesbians are lower than among heterosexuals.

People who practice homosexuality; 2-3?% of the population, committ 25-40% of the molestations in America.Ergo, the statistical probability that homosexuals - relative to their sheer numbers - will molest children, is staggering.

---------
1. Where did you pick up that little number you know its wrong. No That is a lie and you know it. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Ledifni · Jul 29, 2005

dmp said:
Then perhaps you don't understand what you are reading. I'd be glad to try to clarify specific questions you may have. There's zero chance I could 'hate' people who practice homosexuality. I've 'gone to war' with homosexuals - loved homosexuals as best friends at times in my life - as my ONLY friends.

What I think you are feeling is this: "This guy 'dmp' doesn't embrace a homosexual lifestyle as legitimate. Therefore, his words upset me, because i believe in the homosexual lifestyle. When somebody doesn't agree with me, it's much easier to call them 'hateful' than to understand/agree/argue their points"

I hope I'm mistaken...

No, what I'm feeling is this: "This guy 'dmp' says homosexuals are inveterate child molesters. Yet he says he loves them. What is wrong with him, if he loves inveterate child molesters?"

There's more, of course. The fact that you say a large percentage of Christians aren't really Christian because they're homosexual, the fact that you compare them to habitual liars, the fact that you say they're obsessed with sex -- when you lie about somebody, it doesn't make you appear to love them.

rachelness · Jul 29, 2005

dmp said:
It's pretty easy, and I think you'll understand if you ever have kids. I HATE when my daughter lies to me. I hate the lie. I love my daughter.

(shrug).

Homosexuality is NOT 'who somebody is' - it's 'how they behave'.

So you define sexual orientation by sexual activity?

dmp · Jul 29, 2005

Toboe said:
----------
Sorry not a fact.

Have you read the Bible? Look up 'homosexual' on www.biblegateway.com. The bible is VERY clear.

But i though everyone sined so then every one lives a sinful lifestyle

Not true. We all sin - but we don't all continue in the same sin, willingly, thinking God wont care.

Show me where sexual orientation is the same thing as habitual lieing.

It's not the same thing. One is telling lies out of habbit, the other is having seuxal relations with members of the same sex. (shrug)

And its sexual orination thank you.

Semantics mean that much? It's a preference. Again, nobody is FORCED by genetics to be gay.

How dare you insult me like that you Bigot. I don't use my "sexual enjoyment"
to define who I am.

Are gay? Gay = Homosexual. Homosexuality is a behaviour. You choose to conduct sexual relations with members of your gender. You label/define yourself based on that choice. Why the name calling? Pretty 'hateful' of you, isn't it?

I can state that there is no credible evidence that its not a choice and using me as an explame i did not choose to be Bisexual.

But that's just bad logic. The owness is upon homosexual advocates to prove the gay gene, not the other way around. You may not have created your urges for homosexuality - but you ARE in control of your behaviour. Rapists would say they did not CHOOSE to feel like they wanted to rape somebody. Or Thieves may say they did not CHOOSE to feel like they wanted to steal. Liars may say they did not CHOOSE to feel like they wanted to lie.

They all choose to Rape, Steal, and Lie. They choose to give over to their desires, instead of deal with them and/or treat them.

Of couse you know that about 98% of childe molestation occures by White males

May be true- however, of those 98%, 3-4% would be homosexuals...and they would be performing 25-40% of the molestations. it's sad.

1. Where did you pick up that little number you know its wrong. No That is a lie and you know it. You should be ashamed of yourself.

The Bible speaks of a time when men would love lies, and hate the truth. I'm only speaking based on reasearch and biblical principle. I really AM sorry it frustrates and hurts you, but your unwillingness to believe it doesn't make it any less true.

Some data:

. Blanchard, Barbaree, Bogaert, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], Klassen, Kuban, and Zucker, working with male offenders, concluded in 2000 that the best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2-4% of men attracted to adults prefer men; in contrast, around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys.... Thus the rate of homosexual attraction is 6-20 times higher among pedophiles [those who have sex with children under the age of 12 yr.]
http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRR_03_02.html

figures from a 1991 population study by the U.S. Department of Commerce...showed that 8 million girls were abused by age 18 by heterosexual men, a ratio of 1 victim to 11 adult men. However, 6-8 million boys were abused by age 18 by 1-2 million adult homosexuals, a ratio of 3-5 victims for every gay adult.
http://sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=11002

dmp · Jul 29, 2005

Ledifni said:
No, what I'm feeling is this: "This guy 'dmp' says homosexuals are inveterate child molesters. Yet he says he loves them. What is wrong with him, if he loves inveterate child molesters?"

I'm saying a disporportionate number of child molesters practice homosexuality. I say that based on data. I love child molesters because Christ loves child molesters. Still, whether homo or hetero, child molesters need to die, in my personal view. (shrug0

There's more, of course. The fact that you say a large percentage of Christians aren't really Christian because they're homosexual, the fact that you compare them to habitual liars, the fact that you say they're obsessed with sex -- when you lie about somebody, it doesn't make you appear to love them.

Lets be clear - it's not DMP saying Christianity and Homosexuality are not compatable -it's CHRIST. If you have issue with The Bible's teachings, please send those to the author(s)

trunks2k · Jul 29, 2005

naotmaa said:
My question: Is there a way christians and gay people can reach out to each other and really knock down these misconceptions? Does your church or glbt group try to do this? Is it impossible?

GLBT groups certainly try to do this. Most GLBT groups will be more than happy to do reach out programs and such, minus discussions with a few groups (i.e. my campus GLBT group, SAGA, would not meet with the Campus Crusade for Christ b/c they tried it in the past and things just got ugly). However, a lot of it has to do with the church. Some churches do programs like that, have PFLAG meetings, etc. I've presented at a couple youth meetings for the Unitarians in the area.

rnmomof7 · Jul 29, 2005

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knocking down misconceptions

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