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"Therefore, bretheran, STAND FAST AND HOLD THE TRADITIONS which you were taught whether by word or Epistle." 2 Thess 2,15
The system of Judaism moved from De Jure into De Facto upon the Resurrection of Jesus The Christ. By maintaining the Jewish Sabbath a person moves from the De Jure Christian Law into the De Facto state of Judaism.
Sunday is the Lord's Day for Christians according to any Orthodox Jew and given that you accept their authority on what the Canon of Old Testament is it would be odd for you to reject their authority on what day their historians as well as secular Roman historians state the Lord's Day was and is.
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"My holy day" , "Sabbath to the Lord", etc, etc, etc.
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= The Sabbath is subordinate to the One who created it, Jesus Christ. If anything, the above text minimizes the Sabbath to an entity of creation which is exactly what Jewish teaching has always said the Sabbath was. God's Rest is understood to be a "perpetual rest" because it is perfection and perfection can never "DECAY".
In otherwords, in the creation account of Genesis God had done everything and invited man to "live in His (God's Rest). Man was created, sinned and expelled prior to entering God's rest and Jesus came to bring Man back into the rest of God.
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"I swore in my wrath they would never enter MY REST".
The Sabbath was made for man, for him to live ETERNALLY IN IT. To suggest that God created the seventh day to be experienced once a week is a gross missunderstanding of Judaism and historic Christianity because by default it suggests that the Sabbath Rest of God rots for 6 days then becomes perfect again.
The only "principles" that come to the top of my mind after the cross are these:Principles of seventh day Sabbath keeping is taught all throughout the New Testament.
The only "principles" that come to the top of my mind after the cross are these:
Romans 14:5-6
5: One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6: He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Colossians 2:13-17
13: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15: And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Odd that there is no binding ordinance to govern a sabbath, which is why Paul doesn't care about it.
The shadows are unimportant, because the ordinances have been retired by the reality of Jesus Christ.
You won't find a sabbath ordinance outside of Moses. What God called "My holy day" in Isaiah is based on a law He determined to abolish, so that He could establish a new covenant based on the promise to Abraham. As Isaiah 56:6 mentions, the only way a Gentile could partake of the sabbath was to also "take hold of my covenant" with Moses.
That involves circumcision to enter that covenant, before you could have "kept" a sabbath.
Victor
Hebrews 4:6The rest that was promised to Israel was the rest from their enemies while in the promise land. Jesus is our promise land and our rest from the enemy. But now keep in mind, Israel still had to keep the Ten Commandments while in the promise land.
Victor C: The only "principles" that come to the top of my mind after the cross are these:
Romans 14:5-6
5: One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6: He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Colossians 2:13-17
13: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15: And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Odd that there is no binding ordinance to govern a sabbath, which is why Paul doesn't care about it.
The shadows are unimportant, because the ordinances have been retired by the reality of Jesus Christ.
You won't find a sabbath ordinance outside of Moses. What God called "My holy day" in Isaiah is based on a law He determined to abolish, so that He could establish a new covenant based on the promise to Abraham. As Isaiah 56:6 mentions, the only way a Gentile could partake of the sabbath was to also "take hold of my covenant" with Moses.
That involves circumcision to enter that covenant, before you could have "kept" a sabbath.
The rest that was promised to Israel was the rest from their enemies while in the promise land. Jesus is our promise land and our rest from the enemy. But now keep in mind, Israel still had to keep the Ten Commandments while in the promise land.
faulty reasoning..... why the emphasis on one particular issue to the exclusion of other issues, and then suggest that if a person keeps searching God would reveal "these things." That is also faulty reasoning, meaning that everyone who searches will come to the same conclusion.... reasonable people looking at the same information can come to different conclusions...If there is no Sabbath then Jesus is Lord of nothing. Jesus teaches us that it is good to do good on the Sabbath.
The common denominator in the passages that come both from Romans and Colossians is the allusion to dietary ordinances and sabbath convocations, both of which come from Leviticus. It is Adventism that attempts to divide the law entrusted to Israel into little parts, against the decree of the law itself that it is 'one law' (Numbers 15:16 and elsewhere). If you do away with the part you call "ceremonial", you do away with the sabbath. If you do away with the decalogue, you do away with the sabbath. Israel's covenant isn't divisible.No mention of the seventh day Sabbath in the above verse or anything to do with the Ten Commandments. According to the context the agrument was over doubtful things such has not eating meat.
Romans 14:1-4 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
You fail to percieve that the reason Paul doesn't care about a person's practice governing a day or a meal is because those ordinances have no jurisdiction.There is nothing doubtful about the Ten Commandments. The religious men in those days exalted many days. For us it would be like birth days, Christmas, fourth of July, Thanksgiving and so on. The Sabbath of the fouth commandment in not being disputed here, if it were you would hear a huge out cry as you did with circumcision.
I had participated in that thread as well, and remember that you wandered off on a tangent when you couldn't reconcile the sacrifices of the lambs every sabbath within Numbers 28 that also governs the daily oblations.I covered this in length in another post. The new moon, feasts and sabbath days in the above verse are pertaining to cerimonial days having to with dealing with sin, which pictured the work and life of Christ. The seventh day Sabbath of the fourth commandment was not establish because of sin, as a matter of fact, the seventh day was blessed and set apart by God before sin was even in the world.
That means He owns it, and He was able to take it away to establish a better covenant.If you are searching for truth you will find many teachings on how to keep the Sabbath under the New Covenant. First of all Jesus says He is Lord of the Sabbath.
Your thinking with regards to natural ownership rights is lacking.If there is no Sabbath then Jesus is Lord of nothing.
While doing good, you fail to perceive that Jesus had broken the sabbath according to the law.Jesus teaches us that it is good to do good on the Sabbath. He teaches us that things done on the Sabbath that pertain to saving life or healing is not a violation of the Sabbath.
You don't suppose that logistics had something to do with this statement Jesus made, do you?He tells His disciple to pray that they did not have to flee on the Sabbath, which was a prophecy that was to happen fourty years after the resurrection of Jesus.
What Jesus taught is amplified by the Pauline epistles, written by a Pharisee who understood the law a lot better than the two of us combined. Consider the liberty that Paul taught on, which Jesus also taught would be received by His adopted sons and daughters, in Matthew 17:24-26:Shall I go on or can I stop here? None of these teachings of Jesus do away with the Sabbath, but rather, they confirm the Sabbath. Jesus taught much on Sabbath keeping under the New Covenant.
Why does it matter what day they assembled? It didn't! They continued to meet the day the synagogue was open for services and instruction, and saw no need to change it.The Gentiles even begged Paul to teach them again next Sabbath. Why not the next day, which would have been Sunday?
Open the Bible and see for yourself the liberty we have in Jesus Christ, Who alone is sufficient for our complete salvation.Keep searching God will reveal these things to you.
VictorC: You fail to percieve that the reason Paul doesn't care about a person's practice governing a day or a meal is because those ordinances have no jurisdiction.
I had participated in that thread as well, and remember that you wandered off on a tangent when you couldn't reconcile the sacrifices of the lambs every sabbath within Numbers 28 that also governs the daily oblations.
This passage dealt with all the sabbaths and convocations that fall on the annual, monthly, and weekly period. It also, like Romans 14, found the common dismissal these days have with dietary ordinances, which have been abolished in Christ.
That means He owns it, and He was able to take it away to establish a better covenant.
Your thinking with regards to natural ownership rights is lacking.
While doing good, you fail to perceive that Jesus had broken the sabbath according to the law.
John 15:16-18
16: And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
17: But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18: Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
God in heaven doesn't observe a weekly sabbath as the sign given to His vassal covenant people - He had rested on the seventh day 4000 years prior to when He spoke the words above.
But, you prefer the shadows.
If Ellen was a lesser light to lead you to the greater Light, why do you have so much trouble finding Him?
You don't suppose that logistics had something to do with this statement Jesus made, do you?
It is a little hard to flee Jerusalem when the gates are shut on the sabbath.
Jesus didn't impart the ability to walk through walls to His redeemed people.
After all, where does the law prohibit flight during winter (Matthew 24:20)?
What Jesus taught is amplified by the Pauline epistles, written by a Pharisee who understood the law a lot better than the two of us combined. Consider the liberty that Paul taught on, which Jesus also taught would be received by His adopted sons and daughters, in Matthew 17:24-26:
24: And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
25: He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
26: Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.
The laws pertain only to the servants charged with those laws.
They do not have any jurisdiction over the adopted sovereigns of the law they were redeemed from.
Oh - I forgot - that "lesser light" didn't know what redemption was. Sorry.
Why does it matter what day they assembled? It didn't! They continued to meet the day the synagogue was open for services and instruction, and saw no need to change it.
They cared about Who they served, and didn't care a wit about when they did it.
Open the Bible and see for yourself the liberty we have in Jesus Christ, Who alone is sufficient for our complete salvation.
Regarding the law, remember that Galatians 4:30 concludes these words:
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
The "lawkeepers" that God has determined all to be disobedient will not partake in the salvation that is solely expressed as redemption and adoption, and nothing of our carnal works can or will add to that salvation.
Adventism can be summed up by Romans 3:19:
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
These are the things revealed by God already, and contained in His Word.
Paul was the chief proponent of liberty, and the passages I quoted for you demonstrate with final authority that Paul didn't care what day you observed.Paul himself was a Sabbath keeper. He continued to keep the Sabbath, as it was his custom, long after the resurrection. So he did care about the day.
You didn't prove anything, other than you don't understand the law - and I believe I left you posts on the other thread you never answered.If you call giving an abundance of Scripture proof going on a tangent then I don't know how you will ever understand.
No, it is redemption in Jesus Christ. "Keeping" a law that God has declared you disobedient to is an impossible contradiction that you seem unable to recognize.The fourth commandment, as well as, the other nine were not done away with in Christ. That is a doctrine of demons...
I have provided an abundance of Scripture, and you label it "excuses".You are evading the truth with your many excuses....
Salvation by works.All you need to do is repent and start keeping the commandment and God will let you into the holy city and yu will have the right to the tree of life.
Why don't you keep His commandments, then?Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
Where do you attend church assembly?By the way, I'm not into the lesser light nor do I read EGW.
And that bes why Moriah brought up that possibility in its very first post in this thread. More often than not, the Biblical use of the phrase "day of the Lord" or "Lord's day" refers to the "end", the day of Judgment, or what Moriah calls the day Reality gets revealed. (You really imagine any of us have been living in it here and now? Guess again.)If that is your desire--to search the Bible to find out which day is "the Lord's day," then I'll assume that you are considering each of the following:
Upon considering these texts, you will conclude that the Lord's day refers to the day of judgment, not the seventh day. This is why I have not seen the relevance of Revelation 1:10 to the discussions we've been having.
- Isaiah 2:6
- Isaiah 2:12
- Isaiah 13:6
- Isaiah 13:9
- Jeremiah 46:10
- Ezekiel 13:5
- Ezekiel 30:3
- Joel 1:15
- Joel 2:1
- Joel 2:11
- Joel 2:28
- Joel 2:30
- Joel 2:31
- Joel 3:14
- Amos 5:18
- Amos 5:20
- Obadiah 1:15
- Zephaniah 1:7-8
- Zephaniah 1:14
- Zechariah 14:1
- Malichi 4:1
- Malachi 4:5
- Acts 2:20
- 1 Corinthians 5:5
- 2 Corinthians 1:14
- 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2
- 2 Thessalonians 2:2
- 2 Peter 3:10
VictorC: I have provided an abundance of Scripture, and you label it "excuses". I am gravely disappointed in your behaviour.
Salvation by works.
Adventism in a nutshell, and it is the same inability to submit to His righteousness that is described in Romans 10:1-4.
Why don't you keep His commandments, then?
The same author you quote above told you what they are in 1 John 3:23.
Where do you attend church assembly?
An SDA church built on Ellen White's authority, perhaps?
She is codified as your authority in SDA Fundamental Belief #18, and your pastors learn Ellen-filtered theology in seminary. I should know, after discussions with several of them on CARM. BFA, Tall73, Sophia7, and Freeindeed can all attest to my typical performance with them.
You didn't keep the commandments of the Mosaic covenant before you were saved, and they were taken away before you were born.The difference is seen in keeping the commandments to get saved vs keeping the commandments as a result of salvation.
There isn't any change in the commandments given in the new covenant within this epistle:1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
Amen, now how do we love each other?
1 John 5:1-3 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
The problems of Ellen White permeate Adventist thought far more than you may be aware. Martin Luther's theology has surprised me as being very sound with respect to the covenants, but I am personally aware that his teachings don't make it to the grass roots level as well as I wish it did.I'm still trying to find a chruch, there is not much in my area. I tried to attend a SDA church but I struggled with how the SDA denomination are not true to what Scripture is really saying such as in the use of wine, jewelry, food and so on. I also have an issue with EGW.
You didn't keep the commandments of the Mosaic covenant before you were saved, and they were taken away before you were born.
You don't keep those commandments after you were saved, either.
Romans 11:25-32
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
Verse 30 above is faithful in understanding who the Mosaic covenant (those ten commandments) were given to - the children of Israel. The Gentiles never received them, and that covenant through Moses stood between you and your relationship with God. It was through the disposition that Israel was disobedient that the Gentiles received mercy; once Moses was taken away, the promises to Abraham were available to all by faith.
That gift is irrevocable.
Verse 32 charges everyone with disobedience. That means you and me, too.
We have obtained mercy, and nowhere will you find a theme of reconciliation to the covenant that everyone is disobedient to in the Bible.
There isn't any change in the commandments given in the new covenant within this epistle:
1) Believe on Jesus as your propitiation.
2) love the brethren.
Those are His commandments, and those are not burdensome.
It was Peter who declared "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" in Acts 15:10 during the council meeting in Jerusalem. That was to address the charge documented in Acts 15:5:
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
The law of Moses was the Mosaic covenant of the ten commandments, as well as the rest of the book of the law. Peter didn't miss the impact of God sealing the Gentiles as His own, and they didn't even know what a ten commandments thingy was.
God didn't respect the Mosiac covenant anymore.
Peter reasoned, why should we?
His opinion stood.
The problems of Ellen White permeate Adventist thought far more than you may be aware. Martin Luther's theology has surprised me as being very sound with respect to the covenants, but I am personally aware that his teachings don't make it to the grass roots level as well as I wish it did.
I can't recommend a church denomination that is free of all possible misconceptions, but I have been satisfied with many of the non-denominational fellowships. I don't agree with the pre-trib rapture model of eschatology common in them, but they are usually fine otherwise.
Suffice to say I don't recommend Catholicism, JW's, Mormons, or the seventh-day Adventist church as suitable places to learn the Gospel.
Victor
The approach I use is based on pragmatism, and I find that the apostle Paul and I think very much alike. He writes as an attorney who knows his subject well, which is what one would expect from a Pharisee trained by Gamaliel.Here is what I believe and don't believe.
I believe if one loves God they will keep the Ten Commandments and beyond.
Not only slim, but impossible.I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, co-eternal co-equal Trinity God, eternal burning hell of torture, clean and unclean meats, I believe wine is okay in moderation, dancing is okay (not dirty dancing though), jewelry and makeup is okay in modesty, no office of prophet as in the Old Testament time, Jesus is the only way to the Father, we are saved by the work of Jesus through faith and saving faith will produce obedience, I believe the kingdom of God will be on earth, not sure where the thousand years are spent but I'm still seeking understanding, instruments are okay in worship service, preaching the gospel, teaching and helping the needy as a main work of the church, except everyone as they are but help them to conform to the image of Christ. All this has to be bathed in the love of God as we allow people time for God to move and work in their lives.
These are the basics that I'm looking for in a church. What do you think, slim chance right?
some folks like cults.... not enough diversity for my taste, and the moment the "cult" leader starts talking about my wife and daughter are now his, there will be a problem..... trust that....
That's what you get for wanting to belong.Amen! I can't believe people, especially the men fall that line of thinking its amazing......
The approach I use is based on pragmatism, and I find that the apostle Paul and I think very much alike. He writes as an attorney who knows his subject well, which is what one would expect from a Pharisee trained by Gamaliel.
Paul would like to keep the whole law, but realizes that this ambition is absolutely impossible. I nicknamed Romans 7 "Paul's lament", as this describes his attitude toward the law.
In a nutshell, you aren't going to keep the ten commandments because you aren't able to.
Not only slim, but impossible.
Simply writing off the divinity of Messiah by rejection of the trinity will close the door of every single Christian denominiation before you.
That is the root of the Heresy of Arius from about 325ad, and this basis of thought is the foundation of the Jehovah's Witnesses cult - and in the early writings of Ellen White her Arian roots are discernable (as in her description of the plan of salvation designed after Adam's fall, where Jesus and the Father are two separate individuals who need to have a pow-wow together to bang ideas out). Tri- or poly-theism is another manifestation of Arianism, and led to Mormonism's many "gods".
This is such a fundamental doctrine within orthodox Christianity that a rule was recently placed at the top of the stickys here, specifically designed to prohibit denial and discussion of the trinity.
This CF rule was posted by Criada and you can link to read it here.
All the other target beliefs you listed are mundane and banal compared to this one. You're describing a cult as your ideal church home.
Victor
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