Just a question...

disciple Clint · Jul 19, 2022

Graydon Booth said:
But He gets his power from the Father, so my question is, how is Jesus God here? Again not denying the trinity, but severely confused.

How is it possible to not deny the Trinity and at the same time not accept the fact that Jesus is God and that all three Persons of the Trinity have the power of God? Please explain that to me.

ozso · Jul 19, 2022

disciple Clint said:
Jesus clearly stated several times that He is God. The Prologue to John clearly states that Jesus is God. God is immutable, He does not change, Jesus had the full power of God because He was God, He did not give up His powers, He could not do that even if He wanted to, He simply humbled Himself and became like a servant.

You're misunderstanding me. I didn't say Jesus wasn't God. I said while he was in human form his power came though the Holy Spirit who is also God. Since Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God, I basically said God's power came from God. You seem to be thinking I was saying Jesus' power came from an outside source, but God the Holy Spirit and God the Son are both God.

Graydon Booth · Jul 19, 2022

disciple Clint said:
How is it possible to not deny the Trinity and at the same time not accept the fact that Jesus is God and that all three Persons of the Trinity have the power of God? Please explain that to me.

I guess the problem is the fact that Jesus says the Father is the only true God, he never really calls himself God in scripture.

Graydon Booth · Jul 19, 2022

disciple Clint said:
Jesus clearly stated several times that He is God. The Prologue to John clearly states that Jesus is God. God is immutable, He does not change, Jesus had the full power of God because He was God, He did not give up His powers, He could not do that even if He wanted to, He simply humbled Himself and became like a servant.

But why does he suggest that the Father is greater than him if he's God. I thought the trinity didn't support subordination

disciple Clint · Jul 19, 2022

Graydon Booth said:
I guess the problem is the fact that Jesus says the Father is the only true God, he never really calls himself God in scripture.

Did Jesus say He is God?

disciple Clint · Jul 19, 2022

Graydon Booth said:
But why does he suggest that the Father is greater than him if he's God. I thought the trinity didn't support subordination

Correct but Jesus is speaking of Himself as a man and that He is doing the will of the Father.

ViaCrucis · Jul 21, 2022

Graydon Booth said:
So if Jesus gave authority to the disciples to (as Matthew 10:1)

Does that imply that Jesus got his powers from God? Or does this mean the apostles are now "God" because they have this power?

Now, I believe in the trinity, this is one question I've been thinking of all day.

It means that Jesus gave His apostles authority to speak and act in His name, it is His authority that they exercised. The apostles didn't have "power", they had the authority of Jesus Christ, and Jesus is God.

It's the same when He gives the keys of the kingdom in Matthew 16, to pronounce forgiveness of sins as in John 20.

The Church receives her authority from Christ her Lord, and that authority has always been expressed through ministers, human beings. The Church's ministers are called, generally, pastors; or more specifically called bishops and presbyters (the word presbyter is frequently translated as "elder" in English, but is also the origin of the English word "priest" and is the reason why Christian clergy are called "priests" in a number of Christian traditions today). In giving the Apostles His authority Christ gives His authority to the whole Church, but it is through the Church's sacred ministry that this authority is exercised day-to-day. Namely the preaching of the Word and administering the Sacraments. This authority is service (the word "minister" literally means a servant) rendered for the sake and good of the Church. Pastors serve, they do not rule. As our Lord Himself gives Himself as the Servant of servants, "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but rather to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many." (Mark 10:45). In the same way Christ's ministers serve in Christ's name and authority as servants, by serving the Church with Word and Sacrament.

Authority, as Jesus defines it, is not power but service; it is the opposite of power.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Jul 21, 2022

Graydon Booth said:
But He gets his power from the Father, so my question is, how is Jesus God here? Again not denying the trinity, but severely confused.

In the Nicene Creed we confess our faith in "in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, truly God of truly God, begotten, not made, of the same Being with the Father; through Him all things were made."

This language was carefully chosen to express Christian truth about Jesus Christ:

"eternally begotten of the Father", or more traditionally written "begotten of the Father before all ages". This line in the Creed emphasizes that Jesus, as the only-begotten Son of the Father, does not have His origin in time as a creature, as though there was a time when Jesus came to be; but instead that Jesus as the Son of the Father has always been. The Son is eternal just as the Father is eternal, that He is begotten does not mean come about at a time, but that His origin is eternal and timeless, without beginning and without end.

"God of God, Light of Light, truly God of truly God" is a triple redundancy to really hammer the point that Jesus, as the Son, is truly, really, and 100% God. He is not something other than what the Father is. If the Father is God, then the Son is also God. Jesus is just as much God as the Father is God.

"begotten, not made" again emphasizing that Jesus is begotten, but He is not a creature. He has no beginning, He is eternal, He is God.

"of the same Being with the Father", this was the most important phrase at the Council of Nicea, the word translated as "of the same Being" is homoousios; this Greek word is the combination of the Greek prefix homo meaning "same" and the Greek word ousia, which means "being" or "essence" or even "substance". It is literally a noun form of the Greek verb "to be" or "is". So to say that Jesus is homoousios with the Father means, in the most clear and unambiguous terms, that Jesus is what the Father is, Jesus is God. Jesus is not a second God, a separate God, a different divine being from the Father--Jesus is the same Being, the same God as the Father.

We don't have any analogous language to explain this kind of relationship. There is nothing in all of creation which is comparable. Every example of anything has individual instances of beings. For example, while you are a human being, and I am a human being, we are two different human beings. But when we are talking about the relationship of Jesus to the Father, we say the Father is God (the Divine Being), the Son is God (the Divine Being), and are the same God, the same Divine Being. Not two divine beings, but one and the same Divine Being. And this holds true also when we speak of the Holy Spirit.

Hence why we say there is one God and three Persons. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons, that is each is distinct unto Himself (these are not three expressions, three faces, three modes, three different ways God behaves or acts, these are not roles, etc). When Jesus prays to the Father there are two distinct Someones: Jesus and the Father. When Jesus says He will go to the Father and will send the Holy Spirit, there are three distinct and real Someones involved here: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. But while distinct in their Persons, there remains only one, undivided God. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God: one God.

-CryptoLutheran

com7fy8 · Jul 24, 2022

Graydon Booth said:
Again, not denying the trinity, but I'm saying if Jesus didn't have the authority on his own does that mean he just had that authority from God and is not God himself?

Our Father directs Jesus and gives Him power and authority . . . like you give your hand direction and authority and power. Your hand is you, though not all of you.

But if God gives us power, we are not God, but God in us is sharing with us for as long as He in His power works in and through us.

disciple Clint · Jul 25, 2022

com7fy8 said:
Our Father directs Jesus and gives Him power and authority . . . like you give your hand direction and authority and power. Your hand is you, though not all of you.

But if God gives us power, we are not God, but God in us is sharing with us for as long as He in His power works in and through us.

except for the fact that the Father and Son are equal in all respects.

iwbswiaihl · Jul 26, 2022

It seems to me, he may be asking while Jesus was on earth as the man Jesus, and if that is correct, He did say in John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. John 8:29 And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.”

ViaCrucis · Jul 26, 2022

iwbswiaihl said:
It seems to me, he may be asking while Jesus was on earth as the man Jesus, and if that is correct, He did say in John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. John 8:29 And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.” If He is not asking about when Jesus walked as man, I would agree with your post.

Jesus is still a man. He's the God-Man.

-CryptoLutheran

iwbswiaihl · Jul 26, 2022

iwbswiaihl · Jul 26, 2022

iwbswiaihl said:
Are you saying He is still a man?

disciple Clint · Jul 27, 2022

iwbswiaihl said:
It seems to me, he may be asking while Jesus was on earth as the man Jesus, and if that is correct, He did say in John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. John 8:29 And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.”

The man Jesus was also the Son who is God in all respects. One person, Jesus, two natures, Human and God.

ViaCrucis · Jul 27, 2022

iwbswiaihl said:
Are you saying He is still a man?

Of course I am. That's basic Christian teaching. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully human.

-CryptoLutheran

iwbswiaihl · Jul 27, 2022

ViaCrucis said:
Of course I am. That's basic Christian teaching. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully human.

-CryptoLutheran

And I fully agree.

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