Just a question on the matter

Phinehas2 · Feb 28, 2008

Dear EnemyPartyII

Open" means "willing to listen and re-evaluate"... it doesn't mean "already believes"

But we have come to believe the Biblical testimony, which suggests you have come not to believe it.

My point however is how come a liberal Christian views agree with atheist views and fundie Christian views dont. The logical conclusion is liberal Christian views aren't Godly.

EnemyPartyII · Feb 28, 2008

Jet_A_Jockey said:
Lack of belief also includes ignorance to beliefs as well. Atheists know of major religions, or were previously involved in one. They went from that, to disbelieving it as truth, and are now atheist. So how is disbelief not involved again?

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.

Former Christians who are now atheists havn't changed from one religion to another, they are now merely a-religious.

EnemyPartyII · Feb 28, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Dear EnemyPartyII
But we have come to believe the Biblical testimony, which suggests you have come not to believe it.

My point however is how come a liberal Christian views agree with atheist views and fundie Christian views dont. The logical conclusion is liberal Christian views aren't Godly.

Wha...?

Please rephrase your question... or statement, or whatever that was, because I didn't understand any of it.

Phinehas2 · Feb 28, 2008

Dear EnemyPartyII

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.

Former Christians who are now atheists havn't changed from one religion to another, they are now merely a-religious.

That sounds like they were never Christians in the first place, we are back to the definition of Christian again.

Phinehas2 · Feb 28, 2008

Basically once again on this forum the deal breaker is whlst I can put the Christian view to atheist posters such as Wednesday and we can agree to differ, I can't put my Christian views to some Christians who seem to deny the Christian views in favour of the atheist ones and still claim the views are Christian.

Jet_A_Jockey · Feb 28, 2008

EnemyPartyII said:
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.

Former Christians who are now atheists havn't changed from one religion to another, they are now merely a-religious.

To say that atheism is because of lack of belief also implies that they are ignorant of belief. Like if someone was on a remote island with no interaction with the outside world, they would have lack of belief since they weren't exposed to any belief systems. When someone has disbelief, they examined the belief and they disregard it as fallacy. The belief still exists, they just do not believe it.

Jet_A_Jockey · Feb 28, 2008

EnemyPartyII said:
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.

Former Christians who are now atheists havn't changed from one religion to another, they are now merely a-religious.

from dictionary.com

6.something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience

atheism fits in the category of religion. atheists believe there is no God, and they defend it.

EnemyPartyII · Feb 28, 2008

Jet_A_Jockey said:
from dictionary.com

6.something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience

atheism fits in the category of religion. atheists believe there is no God, and they defend it.

That isn't what we were discussing

how is that possible? If you were open to them you'd believe them to be true, and would therefore not be an atheist?

Yes. An atheist can explain the reason why they decide there is no God, which I suppose could be called "defending their beliefs"... however, it still isn't a religion as it should not be an article of faith, true atheirm is merely a lack of such.

Jet_A_Jockey · Feb 28, 2008

EnemyPartyII said:
That isn't what we were discussing

Yes. An atheist can explain the reason why they decide there is no God, which I suppose could be called "defending their beliefs"... however, it still isn't a religion as it should not be an article of faith, true atheirm is merely a lack of such.

And is it not synonymous with disbelief? An athiest disbelieves the testimony of any religion he/she has encountered, does he/she not? It's more than lack of believing in something.

Phinehas2 · Feb 28, 2008

Dear EnemyPartyII

Yes. An atheist can explain the reason why they decide there is no God,

and you complain we miss your point!! We arent considering what makes an atheist, we are considering that atheists views are not God based and Christian ones are. Therefore for one Christian to have God based views and another to have non-God based views is a contradiction. Or are you implying that some views which are Christian are not God's views? Again this seems like a pretext for disbelief and an attempt to want to change Christianity.

Wednesday · Feb 28, 2008

I don't have ANY faith in ANY deity whatsoever. However, I REFUSE to bury my faith in humanity just because some fundies cannot be reasoned with or are nutcases. Atheism is not a religion, it is a quite simple thing, why is it so hard to understand

A - theism means no religion, no faith.

Learn it, love it.

I shall call calling atheism a religion, *scraping the bottom of the barrel*. Because really, that is an argument you people resort to when you are really desperate.

Now, I love liberal Christians, which is why the whole True Scotsman ticks me off quite significantly. Just who are you to say who is the True Scotsman and who is not? Just who are you?

Jet_A_Jockey · Feb 28, 2008

if you have no faith then you also have no faith in humanity, of which you just said you refuse to bury your faith in. What are fundamentalists desperate for? I'm not desperate for anything. liberalism and fundamentalism are very broad words. I could fall into either group depending on the subject, so whats the point in labeling ourselves and then fixating ourselves on the other?

Wednesday · Feb 28, 2008

Having faith in something, existance of which is proven, is different from say believing that Santa Claus is real, or for example believing that the bible is the word of IPU without having any means of proving it.

I have no faith in fairytales.

When you can prove me that IPU exists, so I can actually see it, then we can talk about faith, facts, reality and fantasy

Jet_A_Jockey · Feb 28, 2008

sure it does, it exists on the upper right hand corner of your posts, and in your imagination

I don't need to have a degree in rocket science to understand that I don't know everything, and cannot conclude that there isn't more to life than just what I've seen and learned.

EnemyPartyII · Feb 28, 2008

Jet_A_Jockey said:
sure it does, it exists on the upper right hand corner of your posts, and in your imagination

I don't need to have a degree in rocket science to understand that I don't know everything, and cannot conclude that there isn't more to life than just what I've seen and learned.

argument from incredulity... Just because you can't imagine a world without God is not evidence of Him.

k2svpete · Feb 28, 2008

The more scientists study and research, the more of them come to a point of realisation that the complexity of creation is not something born of coincidence, something has had a big part to play in it.

Have a look at electricity, you can't see it but you can feel it and see the result of it. Faith in God is very similar.

Wednesday · Feb 28, 2008

Yes but, existance of electricity has been proven. There is evidence that it exist.

Evidence, I want hard, credible, supported evidence that I can see.

Phinehas2 · Feb 28, 2008

Dear Wednesday

I don't have ANY faith in ANY deity whatsoever. However, I REFUSE to bury my faith in humanity just because some fundies cannot be reasoned with or are nutcases. Atheism is not a religion, it is a quite simple thing, why is it so hard to understand

Whilst you have continued discussing the point I was neither making nor disputing, I can acknowledge you are an atheist by definition, and that you are entitled to that.

Now, I love liberal Christians, which is why the whole True Scotsman ticks me off quite significantly. Just who are you to say who is the True Scotsman and who is not? Just who are you?

If you don’t believe in God, why would you be bothered who are true Christian believers? Sounds like you want Christians to believe the same as atheists which is why you say you like liberal Christians who we have seen share your views.
But we don’t claim to say who a Christian is, we claim Jesus Christ has said what makes His disciples. Now you can see that from the Biblical account even if you don’t believe it. So it isnt a case of who we are, but a case of who Jesus Christ is.

Phinehas2 · Feb 28, 2008

Also Wednesday, as I have said before, neither this thread nor this section is for your disbelief in God.
back to the topic please

Wednesday · Feb 28, 2008

Alrighty, happily.

The OP questions were

Ok. Let's pretend for a moment that some sort of deity that you people call God exists.

Do you honestly think that someone who is supposed to be *allmighty* would be superficial enough to care for what two (or more) consenting adults are doing in the privacy of their own bedroom? And that artificial, human-made institution of marriage? I think that you people (fundie/conservatives) are oversimplifying theology a little too much?

Just a question on the matter

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