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Joseph Prince interpretation of 1 John 1:9

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Shepherd1

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didaskalos said:
The only sins you have to confess are the ones that have you in darkness and out of fellowship.
You know which ones they are. I know immediately what I have to confess.
Click to expand...

Sometimes I ask the Lord which ones I need to confess and He tells me LOL! Some of them are unintentional and due to my ignorance! God says they perish for lack of knowledge...
 
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Alive_Again

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I have listed 12 reasons why "Christians" never need to confess their sins to be forgiven. By "confess" I mean listing all your sins.
Click to expand...
No doubt confessing you're a sinner when you sin probably works. Some days, I have sinned more than I could probably recall. Often the Holy Spirit deals with me about specific acts or omissions. Either way, when you become defiled, your relationship with God is diminished. It is possible to completely break fellowship. I think we're slicing it up unnecessarily. Suffice it to say that when you transgress, you need cleansing. Repentance and faith are the only solutions to that problem.

But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psalms 37:38

Believers transgress and sometimes behave wickedly. I could tell you some stories and of you probably could too. (No offense!)

And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
Isaiah 1:28

I guess you've never really had a serious backsliding? That's good, but it is possible to forsake the Lord's ways entirely and enter into the slavery of sin.

I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word.
Psalms 119:158

Transgressors don't keep the Word. That means you're on thin ice. Nothing like repentance (which has fruits). Jesus equates keeping His Word with loving Him. We are accountable to the love commandment.

And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
Ezek 33:31

It is possible for a believer to hear the Word and not do it. A little rebellion is not good, but a lot is very dangerous! It is possible for a believer to be covetous. Ever done that since you were saved?

For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Mark 7:21-23

You can just take the worst of these; maybe adultery, murder, etc. Do them and you become defiled in God's sight. The defiled are unclean and won't get to heaven.

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1 Tim 1:9-10

If you're lawless or disobedient, you're under law. Ever been disobedient? Who hasn't?

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1 John 3:4

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
James 2:11-12

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:1

You must walk in the Spirit. If you walk in the flesh, you come under law, because your own righteousness cannot fulfill the requirement of God's royal law of love (the law of liberty).

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:4

If you don't walk in righteousness, you need cleansing. The unrighteous will not enter into the kingdom.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:
1 Cor 6:9

Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isaiah 55:6-7

Seeking and forsaking means repentance. No pardon without both of them, even with the blood being available.

Unrighteousness means you've got judgment coming your way and it's not eternal life. Repentance for all under this heading is required.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

John talking to Christians.

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thess 2:10-12

You must love the truth, meaning you must adhere and do the truth. Ever had a season of sin where you took pleasure in unrighteousness? No righteousness without cleansing by the blood (That means when you need it).

Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart;
Psalms 24:3-4

This is abridged, but it is still a requirement. Of course, repentance and faith are the answer.

Got to have the pure heart and only by the work of the blood can you enter into this. Your heart or spirit is either wearing filthy rags, is naked, or is clothed with a wedding garment. It must be kept unspotted (if you have one).

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Matt 5:8

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Eph 5:6-7

You can be a partaker with "them" by being disobedient. I believe God works with us, but the wrath of God comes to the children of disobedient. It's right there coexisting in the Word with your favorite scripture about being saved. They're both right!

It doesn't matter if Jesus paid the price 2000 years ago or not. If you need cleansing from sin, only Jesus' blood applied with repentance and faith will do the job. You can't get by on yesterday's faithfulness to God. We all must adhere and obey and make Jesus Lord every day of our lives. The race is not over and it is possible to be turned to the wide path to destruction. I've been on it since I've been saved and it's a reason to fear God, because we'll be judged by our deeds. I say this as a friend and not one to clobber you with the Word. You don't want to find this out at the judgment seat of Christ. We are accountable to love and obey God. He is not a legalist and is merciful, but we must repent and believe in the blood of Jesus to be saved.

Our "so great of a salvation" means that we can be saved from bondage to sin and become slaves of righteousness. If you sin, you are a slave to sin. Jesus said this and He was talking to His own people. By walking in the Spirit, in Him, you can be free of the corruption that is in the world through lust. You will think thoughts of Him and you now have the power to choose and never stop choosing.

That's not bad news, that's good news!
 
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Shepherd1

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I realise that this is not addressing the question in the way that you might like, but it has occured to me to ask you all this question:

If we love God why wouldn't we want to say we're sorry by way of repentance? I know that when I mistakely do the wrong thing or say the wrong thing or get the wrong thing in my head, my heart immediately wants to tell God how sorry I am for whatever it is I have done wrong and to ask Him to help me not do, say or think that thing again - that's because I love Him. I know... nothing to do with the question LOL!

 
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Alive_Again

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That's beautiful. God is a person like we are in many respects. We are created in His image and likeness. We have emotions like He does. Of course, our flesh still has sinful qualities about it. God has given us His divine nature on the inside of us for us to yield to. Like a plant, we can flow in this nature and not live according to the nature that offends Him.

When one transgresses a relationship, one needs to repent and change. The other party is not a machine. Neither has God given us a blank check to do what we want, knowing that we'll be ok. He gave His Son to cover our needs. If we break the union of our spirits (not that He leaves), we no longer have fellowship. Unity is a question of agreement. When one goes one way and the other another, their is no fellowship. If we don't have fellowship with God, He doesn't really know us (intimately).

He has given us every avenue of approach to enter into, live and abide in Him. The ball is now in our court.

 
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dkbwarrior

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Very interesting discussion guys, I'm loving all the input. Although, from my perspective, I think that this debate has devolved to two ditches on either side of the road.

To be honest, I am somewhere in the middle of the road on this one and still studying it out.

I am not certain whether I believe one can lose their salvation or not. The scriptures seem pretty vague on that, I have studied it before, and the fact of the matter is, I see no concrete iron clad prooftexts for either argument. I think I have basically come to the conclusion that it is one of those things that we may never know this side of heaven, and mabey God intended it that way. There is good precedent in scripture to make a case that there are many things that God purposely does not reveal to us for various reasons. Mabey this is one of them.

I am certain of this, however: I do not believe that you can go from a state of righteousness to unrighteousness then back to righteouness and then again to unrighteousness, over and over again, depending on how you are walking at the time, in sin or out of it. That idea is just silly, and is countermanded directly by this verse:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
-Hebrews 6:4-6

At the same time, this verse does infer that it may be possible for one to lose their salvation, depending on how you interpret the term "fall away". However, if it is possible to lose ones salvation, (and I am not saying that it is, or that it isn't), one thing is certain, you can't get it back again after that.

Therefore, in my mind it is impossible for ones confession of sin to make one "righteous" again. We become righteous by declaration God, washing of regeneration in the blood, and by renewal and rebirth of our spirit by means of the Holy Spirit joining us to the spiritual Body of Christ. There is no sin IN HIM, and as long as we are IN HIM, there is no sin in us, (that is, in our spirit), no matter what we do, even if we backslide.

Brings to mind this passage about the man that was Christian brother that was sleeping with his stepmother:

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
-1 Corinthians 5:3-5

Seems to me that his spirit was still in a state of righteouness, and would be saved, even though he was obviously walking in the flesh at the time.

But this brings us to the crux of the issue. It seems that what everyone is dancing around here is the fact that we are a tri-partite being, made in the image of a Tri-partite Godhead.

Our spirit is righteous, to be sure; the seed of the Word of God remains in our spirit, and we cannot sin, because it is born of God.

But the flesh still harbors evil according to Paul in Romans. Our fleshly body still provides an abode for the law of sin and death. As he said, "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

Well, in the very next verse he begins to tell us. He says, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind [soul of man] I myself [the spirit man] serve the law of God..."

Then he goes right into chapter eight, and the discussion of walking after the spirit rather than walking after the flesh by controlling what we set our thinking [soul] upon and how there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ, who walk after the spirit, not after the flesh.

The issue here is really the soul, where the battle takes place. We either set our thinking and our will on the things of the Spirit, (and the things of the Spirit are the Promises of God, as Jesus said that He [the Spirit of God] will not speak of Himself, but what He hears that shall He speak; He shall take of mine and shall shew it unto you); or we set our thinking and our will on the things of the flesh. The believer can lose his soul, or at least a part of his soul, to be sure; IMHO. Remember, the Word of God is alive and powerful, and is able to divide asunder the soul from the spirit.

At the judgement seat of Christ, those parts of our soul that are unrenewed will be burnt up, all the wood, hay and stubble that it contains, and only the gold, silver and precious stones will be left. Do we really think that pornographic pictures, thoughts of covetousness or greed, revenge or unforgiveness will be allowed to be bought into heaven carried inside our souls?

It is easy to say that christians should not have such things, and you would be right, but we all know that many do. Christians are at all stages of spiritual developement, or mind renewal, when they pass this life. And alot of that stuff in their head cannot go with them; I gaurantee you. I cannot prove it outright, but I lean toward the opinion that many "chrisitans" will lose their entire soul, or nearly their entire soul, which shall be cast into outer darkness, (there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth), burnt up in the fire of God.

So, the question for me is not can a christian lose his salvation when he sins, that is a big fat NO! No way Jose! But what about our soul?

Peace...
 
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dkbwarrior

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didaskalos said:
The only sins you have to confess are the ones that have you in darkness and out of fellowship.
You know which ones they are. I know immediately what I have to confess.
Click to expand...

Shepherd1 said:
Sometimes I ask the Lord which ones I need to confess and He tells me LOL! Some of them are unintentional and due to my ignorance! God says they perish for lack of knowledge...
Click to expand...


I agree with all this. I don't confess sin to make myself righteous again, I confess sin to restore my relationship, to get myself back into walking in the light.

When I sin wilfully, which I occasionally do, (I know the rest of you are alot more spiritual than that, and only sin on accident); I automatically beak my fellowship with the Father, in my soul, (the mind, will and emotions). He doesn't leave me, but I pull away from Him, cause, like Adam, I don't want Him to see me right then. Of course, silly me, He sees me anyways, but you know what I mean, right?

Now, I know spiritually my status hasn't changed, but I am ashamed of my actions, and until I confess it and repent of it, I am not looking to heaven. And that is, for me, the purpose of 1 John 1:9.

Peace...
 
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Alive_Again

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I suffered from this scripture shortly after coming to the Lord and for months was convinced I was going to Hell. It was the most horrible period in my life to that time, as you can imagine. I was up in a denomination and willingly went off to go sow my oats. God dealt with me for years, even though I had never experienced Him, let alone know anything about righteousness.

Read Kenneth Hagin's "I Believe in Visions". The Lord taught him about this passage and it was only by this that I finally got set free completely. Of course, you can be a Christian and go to Hell. You can also reach a place where you don't need Jesus anymore (it's about the heart condition). Those people can't be saved because they don't want Jesus any more.

Jesus has stressed (again last night) how it is all about the heart condition. What's in the heart will be eventually reflected in your actions. In the words you will speak. Your heart can get stones and thorns in it, and you can be caught up in the things of the world, literally the spirit of the world.

How many Christians (real ones) yield to the devil, either in fear, hatred, with their physical bodies, or any of a number of ways that are abominable to God? We have a body with a sinful nature and we must wage war against being led by our bodies or natural minds (which can be influenced by the devil). If we yield to God, we have the divine nature flowing through us and we escape the corruption that is in the world through lust.

If His Word abides in us, we do what He says, which He refers to as His Lordship, which He refers to loving Him; which the Word refers to as fulfilling the law of liberty.

I look at the "saved" thing as entering into covenant with God (formerly without hope and without God), and getting Him on your side (as we are now on His). He will visit our transgressions with the rod. He won't give up on us. The door is always open to Him in Christ. You can always leave if you want, but He will never take His presence from you, even if you don't feel it.

Those who want to follow Him, have His heart tugging on the inside to do His will and purpose. If we harden ourselves to that, then we enter into a state where we need restoration and forgiveness. Like all relationships, their are deeds that make their continuation impossible without restoration. God has already made that provision once and for all.

The Word shows that you can be naked, clothed with rags, clothed with a wedding garment, and having a spotted wedding garment. You can wear your robe of righteousness, but if it is in a state whereby you can't attend the wedding as a spotless bride, then we have a problem.

As the text indicates, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. A big if, but God is looking for a pure in heart bride for His Son.
 
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hhodgson

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This is a very good subject to talk about...very controversial and I am about to make it even more so...bare with me in all of this, and this reading that I present may have some possibly flaws, I don't know, but it is MHO. I will be looking at this "sin" thing from our new born again spirit approach...

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing. The WORDS I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.." (John 6:63) Here Jesus is putting ALL emphasis on the SPIRIT rather than the flesh...

Choosing to receive Jesus as your Savior and to be born again from above is THE most important decision you will ever make...Everything that is seen in this world is going to pass away, "but those who know Jesus as Lord will never die." (John 11:25-26) In actually, there is nothing more or nothing less to add or take away from this...God said it, that settles it...

The spirit is the part of you that has been completely changed...Jesus said, "God is Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth...(John 4:24) The real you isn't how you look, feel, or perform in this world... God is seeing us through "our spirit.." However, most of us are focused on our body and soul when relating to God...After you are born again, you become a completely new creation...Your spirit becomes totally redeemed and we have the same spirit that Jesus had...This is what God sees is the "new spirit," in us...God sees us as crucified with Christ. (Rom 6:6). The body of sin was done away with and we are no longer slaves to sin. This is why (1 John 3:9) says that "whosoever is born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin because he has been born of God...Our "new spirit" cannot sin, our "new spirit" is the same as the spirit that Jesus had and will not ever change for all ETERNITY...It has been redeemed...this redeemed spirit is the new "us.." Our "new spirit" is fully redeemed, our "soul" is being redeemed by the renewing of our minds with the WORD...Our "bodies" will be redeemed at the ressurection...Our whole spirit, soul and body will have combined redemption at the ressurection...Again, in a sense, our "spirit" has arrived..(redeemed) It is your "new spirit" that becomes a complete brand new work of God when you are born again...Our body and souls are being influenced by our born again spirit...Your "redeemed spirit" is as pure, as righteous, and as holy as it will ever be in ETERNITY...Again... your born again spirit is as identical as Jesus' spirit..."Herein is our love made perfect that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as he is (now), so are we in this world. (1 John 4:17) This isn't a promise that we are going to be like Jesus in heaven, it says we are as He is in this world...There is no way to understand this if we are only thinking of the body and soul, they have not been redeemed yet, but our "spirit" is...1/3 of our salvation is 100% complete through our "spirit", please get this!!!

The "sin" thing where most Christians are hung up upon is not by our new "redeemed spirit" and God isn't dealing with us in our flesh based upon our sins and our failures...God is dealing and relating to us through our "redeemed spirit" that is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Eph 4:24). The Christian life boils down to this simple truth: In your "redeemed spirit", you are as saved as you'll ever be, you are as holy and righteous as Jesus is...You have His faith, His power, and His anointing...All you have to do is renew your mind by the WORD of God, and I'm talking about your soul and body, your "spirit" is already perfected...The mind is like a valve to your "redeemed spirit" and the life of God it contains...Our minds have the power to release or to obstruct the power of God in your life...A mind that is focused on what is going on in the body and soul will shut off the power of God, even though your "spirit" is redeemed...When your mind aligns with your "spirit", you will begin to see the ability of God that is already in your "redeemed spirit" to spill over into your body and soul...

I do not like to say this, but most Christians are like a dog running around in circles chasing his tail...Were trying to catch something that we already have...We already have everything...We ask God to give, and He has already provided in His word...We don't need to "get" God to heal, save, deliver, or prosper us...They already have been supplied through "receiving" by grace through faith...We need to stop chasing our tails and start believing what His Word says...

God has given us ETERNAL life...It is a free gift...We are made righteous by faith...Our "Spirit" is redeemed...God does not look to our soul and flesh, it's through our "spirit" that has been redeemed...May I boldly say, does God even see our sins of the flesh that we commit..? Or does God see us through the blood of Jesus..? Another question...Why would God's grace apply to the whole body, soul and spirit when our new "redeemed spirit" is complete, perfect and sinless..? I guess that is what GRACE is all about is my humble answer...

Our born again "spirit" cannot sin..(1 John 3:9) I purposely am trying to establish that fact and that's why it's worth repeating several times...When my carnal self does sin, hopefully, I will immediately go to God and repent (turn away) and thank Him for forgiving me of "all" of my sins, past, present and future...I do not do this as a Christian to seek His forgiveness that He has already had given me...My "redeemed spirit" is not the one repenting...It is my soul and body that need to align up with my "redeemed spirit." My "redeemed spirit" is complete, perfect and sinless and never needs repenting...When my flesh yields to sin, I am opening up a door to the devil in my life and not because God is going to hold it against me with my "redeemed spirit," nor withhold His blessing from me...Remember, I believe God looks to the "redeemed spirit" and not the soul or flesh...God doesn't want Satan to have an inroad in our lives...dkb Warrior brought up about the "Christian" man in (1 Cor. 5:1) who had relations with his father's wife...That born again man's "spirit" is the same redeemed, perfected and complete and (sinless) "spirit" that Jesus had...His "spirit" did not sin...His "spirit" cannot sin...This man acted on his own carnality and paid the price of his actions...The only thing that Paul could do is have the church of Corinth deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his "redeemed, perfect and complete "spirit" may be saved in the day of the Lord...as with our "redeemed spirit", this man's "spirit" was as pure, as righteous and as holy as it will ever be in ETERNITY...Thats God's grace in action...Notice God did not even deal with his sin Himself...The man was turned over to Satan because of his own actions of his sins that he would not repent...I don't believe God held his sins against him because of his "redeemed spirit." This does not mean that Christians can just go and live in sin and think they are getting away with it...but sin is dangerous because it opens up a door to the devil, (Rom 6:16), as this is evident with the man in the Corinthian church...

I came out of the bondage of saved, lost, saved, lost, righteous, unrighteous, righteous, unrighteous thinking many years ago. That teaching did not have any understanding of the spirit, soul and body...They and most Christians today do not understand yet that our "spirit" got redeemed when we were born again...Satan is having a hay day with some of our doctrines...Grace in my old church was only a song we sang without meaning...With that type of thinking, I was always backsliding, living a life of defeat, of being defeated by sin, by perpetual guilt and condemnation, by sickness, by anxiety attacks, by financial lack and by broken relationships...I was always, always, always asking God to forgive me of my sins...It was never ending...NOW, based on the authority of God's WORD, we are destined to reign in life as Joseph Prince puts it, to have dominion over all of our challenges and circumstances...

I know this writing may open up more questions but we have to get over this "sin" thing when Jesus settled it on the cross, past, present and future and forever with one sacrifice..."But this man, after He had made ONE SACRIFICE for sins FOREVER, (Sat down) at the right hand of God...For by ONE OFFERING He has PERFECTED FOREVER those who are being santified...(The priests had to "stand" and minister daily and offered "repeatedly" the same sacrifices that can NEVER take away sin, but the Bible says that Jesus, after He had offered ONE sacrifice (One time) SAT DOWN.) There is no need to "reapply" His blood. The priests had to do it because the work of the priest was NEVER finished...Only Jesus' work is a FINISHED WORK and not only did He sit down at the Father's right hand, He make us SIT WITH HIM...(Eph. 2:4-6)

This has turned into a very good discussion and should continue so we can renew our minds...IMHO, knowing the truth of what I know now, why would any Christian consider backsliding or turning away from God's amazing grace...I believe (in God's eyes) that sin is no longer an issue and was settled at the cross...By making sin an issue, we can negate the affects of grace...

CHRISTIANS, "awake to righteousness, and sin not for some have not theknowledge of God." (1 Cor. 15:34) which means the more you realize that you are righteous, the more victory you will experience over sin...this is the understanding and knowledge we need for a victorious life...


Greater works...for such a time as this...
_____________
Harry
 
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dkbwarrior

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That is right on target my friend, and at least for me, I see nothing controversial about it. That is the way it is.

In fact it is exactly in line with what I wrote in my newest book, pages 47-48, that is going to the printer this week, (I just finished the final edit):

Peace...
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Unfortunately many believers do not accept the fact that we were REALLY born again as a spirit! My old dead spirit was 100% removed (all things are done away) and the Spirit of Christ was born into me(all things are new!). As a spirit, it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me. As a spirit, I have been created in the image of Him who created me. From a sin perspective, my spirit is totally incapable of sinning. This is true for all believers who are born again. Of course there is the flesh still present. If you follow the inclinations of your born again spirit, you will NEVER sin because you have the nature of the Father in your spirit. If you walk in the flesh... alas you will.

Note: In Galatians, there is a great mis-translation. It is not the "Holy Spirit" we are told to walk in. It is our own reborn spirit. There is no evidence whatsoever that "spirit" should be capitalized. The translators are reading their doctrine into the verse.
 
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dkbwarrior

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Excellent post Dids. And regarding your note, I agree with you 110%, in fact, I once sat down to go through all the epistles to change the capitalization and punctuation of Spirit to fit that paradigm; HOWEVER-

It occured to me not long ago that it doesn't really matter, as they are both the same in the rebirthed human spirit. The Word says "He that is joined to the Lord is ONE spirit", so it is correct to say spirit or Spirit, as long as you know that. The problem is of course, that most Christians do not accept that reality, so the correct punctuation would be helpful to them...

Peace...
 
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dkbwarrior

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That whole post was awesom Harry, but I especially like this part:


Peace...
 
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now faith

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Amen ,our Bible says God is a spirit, and we were made in his image. Our spirit exist in 2 realms ,heavenly, and earthly it is in a curious place . Through salvation it has become one with the father through the Holy Spirit, but is yoked by a cord to our flesh that is at war with the spirit . Our spirit is made whole and free from sin through christ, this is why Romans 8 says those who walk after the spirit. Our human self is to strive to walk in the spirit,seeking to move closer to perfection in Christ. It was our spirit that received salvation not our earthly body. This is the blessing we can understand this by way of the Holy Spirit communion with ours, we receive knowlage and understanding for our human body to walk in harmony with Gods will. Prayer and praying in tongues is the only way for us to link with God and know his will. Our fleshly persons cannot come befor God but our renewed spirit and mind can.
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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Good post. I'll have to read it a couple more time to digest it.

A couple comments in the meantime:

Yes, "depending on how you interpret the term 'fall away'." Dan, if you interpret "enlightened" as being saved, then this set of verses demand that you MUST believe in lost salvation. 'Fall away' from 'enlightenment/salvation'? What else?

But, chew on this: "enlightened" is the knowledge of the Gospel message, not the acceptance of such. Then: "tasted...gift, and ... partakers of the Holy Ghost" describes God's calling of the individual and the sending of the Holy Spirit to invite him into the kingdom. So verse 5 shows that this person had an understanding of the Gospel, of what God's call is, and of what the Holy Spirit is offering. But verse 6 states that this person fell away from such understanding, and thus blasphemed the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29) and we know from the Gospel of Mark that there is no repentence for this.

Yes, and not to mention all the verses about the guarantee of the Holy Spirit and our being sealed.

dkbwarrior said:
Well, in the very next verse he begins to tell us. He says, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind [soul of man] I myself [the spirit man] serve the law of God..."
Click to expand...
And my final thought is that if you are going to use this (the soul of man)as the cog-pin of your understanding then take into consideration the following (acknowledging my understanding of traditional charismatic teaching on the subject of the soul):
Matthew 22:37-38
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment.
​
There is a heart (not the pumping organ) in a man; there is a soul within a man; and there is a mind within a man.

I contend, fine sir, that Jesus is neither dyslexic nor repetitious.

Be blessed!!
 
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Alive_Again

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There is no sin IN HIM, and as long as we are IN HIM, there is no sin in us, (that is, in our spirit), no matter what we do, even if we backslide.
Click to expand...

As I understand the gospel with the precepts from the Holy Spirit regarding being "in Him". It is a state of agreement whereby one who has turned to the Lord in humility (repentance), believing in His finished work at the cross (receiving the gift of righteousness), and to agree to walk in love, according to the law written upon your heart. It is something that you must always choose. You are received before you do it because you cannot do it on your own.

In this state of repentance and faith, their is no condemnation. It is walking in the Spirit. When we step outside of that union, we are no longer in Him.

One key is that He will correct us, but the Word shows when you continually stiffen your neck and become hardened, He will give you to your own deeds. Since we're being judged by our fruits, you decide whether or not you're going to Heaven. We have 2 natures and one takes you to the wide path of destruction.

When I backslid, I became a liar, regularly offended people, and a host of things that God's eternal Word says that if you do them (and don't repent), you won't enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Was their any doubt at all, what my future was in this state? No, I was terrified. In my dreams, I would go to deaths door pretty much every night.

You'll go to Hell just by simply not forgiving someone of their own faults/sins. If you're not forgiven, you don't get in. Yet, we go past this and wonder if we can lose our state of grace? Can you go past this scripture and still wonder? It's all about the heart condition because obviously we can be defiled.

If we break covenant what hope do we have? As long as we are able to repent, if we sin, we should seek the Lord, while He may be found. That goes for believers too. Because if we do not, we're in for a huge surprise.
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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dkbwarrior said:
Excellent post Dids. And regarding your note, I agree with you 110%, in fact, I once sat down to go through all the epistles to change the capitalization and punctuation of Spirit to fit that paradigm;
Click to expand...
I agree 120% with you Dan.

dkbwarrior said:
HOWEVER-
Click to expand...
...and even more so with this word....

I have to disagree with your nuance here. Our reborn spirit (who we are -- our spirit is the real us) is NOT the Holy Spirit. If it were, we would be God (divine) after rebirth. We are not.

Our spirit is God-breathed and we are in the likeness and image of God. We are One with Him not in that we are to be of one mind -- His mind, the mind of God. We are being sanctified and made perfect. But we are and always will be children of God -- not God. Our spirit is eternal, but it is not the Holy Spirit.

I'm sure I misunderstood your nuance, but that was laying there ripe for misunderstanding....so I had to point this out.
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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Amen!! Absolutely wonderful!!
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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The bolded part is not right. The blue part is absolutely beautiful and correct.

Here's the problem with the bolded part:
Hebrews 8:7-13
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
​
Follow me here: v8 "I will make a new covenant..." v9 "not according to the [first] covenant...[which] they did not continue in..." v10 "this is the covenant that I will make... I will put... [I will] write... I will be... and they SHALL be....

Note that the first covenant was mutual: God gave the laws, man had to "do" the laws.

In the new covenant it is one-sided: God will make, God will put, God will write, God will be...

All we have to do is accept the gift and then we SHALL BE His.

v11 "None of them shall teach... v12 [God is] merciful to [our] unrighteousness... [our] sins He will remember NO MORE (which sins did Jesus die for? The one's before the cross? Or all sins before and after the cross -- ie: the one's not committed yet?

God made a new covenant. We accept it and we are made righteous. When we fail, we repent and turn around (same thing!) and get back on the right path but it is not salvific. We have ALREADY been made righteous. God will obsolete the old covenant (note He didn't make a new way to follow the old, but rather He eradicated the old). We no longer have to "follow" rules, but rather the rules become our nature. The flesh tries to pull us down, but our spirit is perfect and desires to follow and fulfill the commandments of God. It is a lifestyle of our spirit: it is not salvific.

I'm going to re-emphasize the un-bolded part:
Alive_Again said:
He won't give up on us. The door is always open to Him in Christ. You can always leave if you want, but He will never take His presence from you, even if you don't feel it.
Click to expand...
For this is wonderful!! He will never take His presence from you!!
 
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dkbwarrior

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ABlessedMan said:
Good post. I'll have to read it a couple more time to digest it.
Click to expand...
And yours as well. As usual, your posts are informative and well researched. I enjoy reading them greatly.


I feel ya'. However, I have a different viewpoint on this set of verses that is different than both of those, that I am quite content with. But I am going to leave that alone for now as I cannot get on too many subjects at one time, as I then lose my focus. Mabey we can start another thread on just that topic at a later time.

ABlessedMan said:
Yes, and not to mention all the verses about the guarantee of the Holy Spirit and our being sealed.
Click to expand...

Agreed.


Lol, you are quite the comedian, aren't you? I agree, Jesus is neither dyslexic nor repetitious.

However, let me put a little bit more context to that verse. That verse is a quote from the Old Testament, and the Old Testament does not use the word mind here, rather it uses the word might:

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
-Deuteronomy 6:4-5

This word comes from the Hebrew meh'ode Strongs number H3966, and according to Gesenius Hebrew Lexicon means strength.

To be fair, in the account in Matthews gospel, the word mind is used, and it is the Greek word for mind also, according to the Lexicon. this makes one wonder why the word was used by Jesus when quoting the Old Testament verse. In most cases, I would probably lean toward Jesus quote as being a more accurate explanation of the original intent, for obvious reasons. However, in this case, I lean the opposite way, and I will do my best to explain why.

As I am sure that you know, even Lexicons or Hebrew and Greek dictionaries aren't really the final word when it comes to interpreting scripture. They are extremely helpful, but they are not the final word. There are three levels of interpretive review, IMHO, starting with the lowest form to the highest:

  1. obvious english meaning of the words used
  2. scholarly definitions of the original language words
  3. contextual definitions from the scripture itself, led by the Holy Spirit
I don't want to go into all the mechanics of this, as I am sure that you already understand this, but suffice it to say that sometimes even the scholarly definitions can be lacking because no one alive today was around in the first century or before, so no one really knows all there is to know about the languages of that time, their idioms, figures of speech, etc. Some know alot, but no one knows it all. Add to this that many times translators bring their own theological bias into the translation process, inadvertantly and unconsciously allowing it color the accuracy of their sholastic work and interpretive process, and we see that sometimes we need to do some contextual digging of our own. Some of the greatest revelations that I have gotten from the Word have come this way.

Looking at the context of both the original statement in Deuteronomy, and Jesus rendition of it in the gospels I note some interesting facts.

First, from the context of the Deuteronomy passage:

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.
-Deuternomy 6:4-9

Reading this in context seems to give a lot of weight to the word might that is used by the KJV translators, as the description given of how this should play out in ones life involves alot of actions in the physical world, i.e.: teaching them to thy children, talking of them in the house and when your walking and laying down and getting up, writing them on your hands and on your forehead, writing them on the posts of the house and on the gates.

This to me speaks of the third part of man, the body, under the direction of the mind, expressing through the actions of the flesh, that which you have in your heart and in your soul. Therefore I see this verse in this manner, "Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all the might or strength of your flesh."

So then if this is accurate, why does Jesus use the Greek word for mind when quoting it in Matthew? Well, we can shed some light on this if we go to the same account of this in Mark and Luke.

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
-Mark 12:29-30

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
-Luke 10:25-27

It is interesting to note that in Lukes account the words themselves aren't even ascribed to Jesus, but to a lawyer. However, this may well have been a seperate but similar event, and even if not, Jesus agreed to His rendition, making it Jesus word anyways.

So leaving that aside, note that here an extra statement is added, and instead of it just saying, "all thy heart, and all thy soul, and all thy mind", it says, "all thy heart, and all thy soul, and all thy strength, and all thy mind".

So how do we interpret that? Jesus is basically interpreting the word might in the Old Testment passage to mean the mind and the strength of the flesh. Or, as I would put it, the mind of the flesh.

Of course, the flesh itself doesn't really have a mind, does it? Well, not so fast. If someone is brain dead, or in a coma, often their body continues to function. Something is directing the bodily functions. While it is not the "mind" in the sense that we often tend to think of it, it is a sort of direction of will, based upon instinct, and habit. For me, this brings up a verse in Hebrews:

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
-Hebrews 5:14

This verse seems to imply that one can trian the flesh itself to discern both good and evil. This is a kind of "mind of the flesh", so to speak, and is what I believe Jesus was alluding to here. My conclusion from this contextual journey is that the Greek word mind that Jesus employed here has a greater more versatile meaning than just the intellect, and furthermore, a meaning that is not fully contained or explored in the Lexicons that I have looked at.

My view is bolstered by the fact that the Greek word used for mind here is not the normal Greek word for mind. Rather it is a compound word with the prefix dia added to it, which means to see through to, implying an ability to judge rightly or discern. That sounds alot like Hebrews 5:14.

This takes us back to what exactly a soul is. The Bible tells us that God formed man of the dust of the earth, and breathed into his nostrils the breathe, (ru-ach) of life, or spirit, and man became a living soul.

I can't describe all the parameters of the essence of that soul, but it appears to me to occur where and when the flesh of man and the spirit of man meet. The soul is kinda a co-joining of the two, or a meshing of the two, that brings about our cognitive functions, emotions, and where the seat of our will is. Please don't be too critical of my description here, it may not be technically correct, but I am just trying to give a feeling or picture of what I see happening.

The soul sits between the two. The spirit of man does not command man, rather the soul does. The soul receives information from both the flesh and the spirit, then makes a decision of will, and commands the mind and the body/flesh to obey. If we are walking in the spirit, then our soul is in agreement with our spirit, and following its lead, but it is still the choice of the will that makes this decision. If it was up to the spirit to make the choice, then obviously everyone that was born again would thereafter walk a perfect walk in the flesh because we have a perfected spirit. We don't however, because even though we are saved, it is the soul of man, which is not completely renewed, that has the seat of command.

It appears to me that what Jesus was doing here was emphasizing the role of the mind in directing the flesh, not trying to state that the soul and the mind are two different things.

In conclusion, let me say that this view of man being a spirit, that has a soul, and lives in a body is the default view of the WOF movement, to the best of my understanding. Kenneth Hagin taught this, and so does Kenneth Copeland. However, your statement seems to lean toward the dichotomous view of man, rather than the trichotomous view. Is that so? I'm just curious.

My view is that man is a spirit, he has a soul, and he lives in a body. Both the spirit and the body have senses that receive information from the world around them. The spirit receives information from the spiritual senses about the spiritual world, and the body receives information from the physical senses about the physical world. The soul doesn't have senses of its own, it is simply the clearinghouse for the information sent to it from the spirit and the body. The soul contains the mind, the will, and the emotions. It colates all the information and makes decisions about what do do with it.

The word heart in the Bible is used to mean the inner part of the man. It never refers to the flesh. Most of the time it seems to refer to both the spirit and the soul, but often it is used to refer to just the spirit of man, and sometimes to just the soul of man.

Finally, I would like to add, that just becasue the word 'and' is used, doesn't always make it a separate item, and one can use a word that describes a whole to refer to only a part, even though the word means the whole normally. For instance, if I were to say that I washed my body and my hands and my feet, you would understand what I mean. Even though technichally my body includes my legs arms hands and feet, I could also use the word in a more limited fashion, referring to just the trunk of my body. That doesn't make the statement false, and is I was to interpret from that the may hands and feet are not part of my body, I would be incorrect. In the same way, just because Jesus said soul, and mind, doesn't mean that the mind could not be part of the soul also.

I would say that in order to believe that the mind is not a part of the soul, which is a pretty well established doctrine, you would have to provide more than one verse as evidence, particularly one that can be seen in a very different light.

Hope that this helps.

Peace...
 
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dkbwarrior

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You did misunderstand my nuance. But not entirely. We are not one with the Holy Spirit, but we are on with the Spirit of Christ:

17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
-1 Corinthians 6:17

We are Christ, in our spirit man. We have been baptized into the spiritual Body of Christ. I don't pretend to understand this. I just know that it is. I like what Kenneth Hagin used to say. He said, "You don't call you head Joe, and your hand Jim, and your foot Goerge do you? They are all you. They are all members of the whole." We are one with Christ in spirit/Spirit, therfore we are Christ.

Therefore, we are Christ on this earth, in spirit/Spirit. We are not Christ in soul or body, that is where the differentiation lies. Just as Christ is one with the Father in Spirit, but has His own mind and body. Our soul is where the seat of our personality lies, what makes us individuals. Therefoe, we are not the Holy Spirit. But we are Christ in spirit/Spirit.

As far as us not being divine, well, I don't really want to get into that, as it could be another thread of its own, but you bet we are. Our spirit is anyways. The seed of the Word of God that is in us makes us that way. We partake of the divine nature by way of the promises contained in His Word. And that Word in us is divine. That makes our spirit divine. This is what the Orthodox church calls theosis, as Jesus alluded to when He quoted from the Psalms, "Have I not said that ye are gods, and all of you are children of the Most High?" We have been made this way by God Himself. I am not going to deny what He has made me.

Peace...
 
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