John Piper

cubanito said:

Not about his prostate cancer, but about his theology. I keep hearing that he's some sort of reformed baptist heretic. What I've read online by him is not much, but it seems rather orthodox to me. Can someone tell me in simple (layman) language what is the big controversy about Piper?

JR

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He's not a heretic, but those in the Armenian Baptist circles would certainly call him one. I've attended his church many times in the Twin Cities (Minnesota). Good preacher, good books.

Everything I know of John Piper thusfar points to sound Reformed doctrine (credobaptism notwithstanding )

I just recently listened to a series of audio sermons by him on the "Five Points of Calvinism" and they were very, very good.

cubanito said:

Not about his prostate cancer, but about his theology. I keep hearing that he's some sort of reformed baptist heretic. What I've read online by him is not much, but it seems rather orthodox to me. Can someone tell me in simple (layman) language what is the big controversy about Piper?

JR

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He is my kids Pastor and I have visited his church.

I know reformed doctrine well, I have never heard him say anything that is contrary to a Reformed Baptist position.

There are 2 kinds of Reformed Baptists, it depends on which Baptist confession they follow.

One of the confessions is very legalistic and demand things like head coverings for women and no work or entertainment on Sundays (the sabbath) . I suspect the criticism might be coming from the legalistic branch of our reformed family

rnmomof7 said:

One of the confessions is very legalistic and demand things like head coverings for women and no work or entertainment on Sundays (the sabbath) . I suspect the criticism might be coming from the legalistic branch of our reformed family

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The Continentals, if I recall correctly. Very similar to the Puritans (credobaptism notwithstanding).

Frumanchu, I just noticed your avatar.... Very cool!

I love John Piper! He and RC Sproul have made a huge impact on my life. I highly recommend any of Piper's books, especially Desiring God. It is a must read.

John Piper has blessed me, changed my view on Christianity. I think his teachings on Christian Hedonism is very biblical.

Here is something you may wish to read concerning the theology of John Piper.

http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=113

Elderone said:

Here is something you may wish to read concerning the theology of John Piper.

http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=113

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I appreciate very much Trinity Foundation, but after skimming through this article, I am going to have to disagree with many of their points.
After a brief skim, I think Robbins has misrepresented Piper.

littleapologist said:

After a brief skim, I think Robbins has misrepresented Piper.

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Possibly. John Robbins has been known to get things wrong in the past, and I have no first hand knowledge of John Pipers teaching so am unable to determine, one way or the other. It is something to keep in mind and listen for, however.

cubanito said:

Not about his prostate cancer, but about his theology. I keep hearing that he's some sort of reformed baptist heretic. What I've read online by him is not much, but it seems rather orthodox to me. Can someone tell me in simple (layman) language what is the big controversy about Piper?

JR

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John Piper is not a heretic. When he describes "Christian hedonism", he simply means that, indeed, we should pursue our joy in Christ, all the time, for it is commanded us in the bible. Glory to God that we may follow Him and still be joyful. Just think about it.

To the glory of God,

Randy

I too have been profoundly affected and blessed by John Piper - but you all should be aware that John Piper does not hold to the classic Reformed Position of "Perseverence of The Saints" as laid out in the Canons of Dort and The Westminster Confession of Faith.

You can access Piper's explanation for each of the five points of TULIP on his website: www.desiringgod.org. Here is a brief comparison for you of some of the disparity between a few of Piper's views and the Canons of Dort on the final point of "P." The views of Piper are taken from his church's article called "What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism."

Piper Says: "But we mean more than this by the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. We mean that the saints will and must persevere in the obedience which comes from faith. Election is unconditional, but glorification is not. There are many warnings in Scripture that those who do not hold fast to Christ can be lost in the end"

Article 3 from CoD: "Because of these remnants of indwelling sin and also because of the temptations of the world and of Satan, those who have been converted could not remain standing in that grace if left to their own strength. But God is faithful, who mercifully confirms them in the grace once conferred upon them and powerfully preserves them in that grace to the end."

Piper Says: "The way we put together these crucial threads of Biblical truth is by saying that we are indeed justified on the basis of our first act of faith but not without reference to all the subsequent acts of faith which give rise to the obedience that God demands."

Article 8 from CoD: "So it is not through their own merits or strength but through the undeserved mercy of God that they neither totally fall away from faith and grace nor remain in their downfall and are finally lost. With respect to themselves this could not only easily happen but would undoubtedly happen. But with respect to God this cannot possibly happen, since His counsel cannot be changed, His promise cannot fail, the calling according to His purpose cannot be revoked, the merit, intercession, and preservation of Christ cannot be nullified, and the sealing of the Holy Spirit can neither be frustrated nor destroyed."

Piper Says: "We are not left to ourselves and our assurance is very largely rooted in the sovereign love of God to perform that which he has called us to do."

Error 2 and refutation under the Fifth Head of Doctrine from the CoD: The Error of thought: "God does indeed provide the believer with sufficient strength to persevere, and is ready to preserve this in him if he will do his duty. But even with all those things in place which are necessary to persevere in faith and which God will use to preserve faith, it still always depends on the decision of man's will whether he will persevere or not."

The Refutation: "This idea contains outright Pelagianism. While it wants to make men free, it makes them robbers of God's honour. It conflicts with the consistent teaching of the gospel, which takes from man all cause for boasting, and ascribes all the praise for this benefit to the grace of God alone. It is also contrary to the testimony of the apostle: It is God who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Cor 1:8."

This has been just a brief snapshot of some of the discrepencies I've found under this doctrine as laid out by Pastor Piper's church. I strongly recommend reading the entire article under the sub-heading of "Perseverence of the Saints" and then read the entire Fifth Head of Doctrine from the Canons of Dort along with all of the listing of errors and refutations that are spelled out in detail there. You will see many more discrepencies.

The first clue that there are some problems there can be seen within the title of the article itself - "What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism." In my opinion the Canons of Dort are clearly set forth and are in need of no interpretation. Bethlehem Baptist apparantly needs to clarify their position on TULIP since its view runs contrary to the historic Reformed View of "Perseverence."

Now - I am not saying that John Piper is a heretic by any means. But I would not consider him a true Reformer and vehemently disagree with his church's position on "Perseverence of The Saints."

John Robbins had it right and I did him a disservice. John Piper's statement of belief absolutely does not fit with mine either, and he certainly is not the teacher I would be looking for.

Thanks for posting the clarification Dave...............

Yea - I've read that article by Robbins a few times. He really seems to focus mostly on Pastor Piper's book "Future Grace" more than anything else he has written. That is one of the few Piper books that I have not read. I believe the article is credible - but I can't say beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is simply because I haven't read the book in question. I believe John Robbins to be credible in and of himself though - so I wouldn't write him off either. John Robbins reminds me of a modern day Luther because of how harsh he gets sometimes - but as with Luther, I wouldn't let that keep me from taking a look at what he says.

The discrepencies I found - that are listed in the above post - I found before reading anything from John Robbins however. As a true lover of Piper's preaching I just came across it surfing through his website one day. I was very surprised to say the least. I posted my concerns here a while ago - but it didn't generate much discussion then....

Dave

wow thanks for the info on Piper

I may give a more detailed response after reading over piper's website

cubanito said:

Not about his prostate cancer, but about his theology. I keep hearing that he's some sort of reformed baptist heretic. What I've read online by him is not much, but it seems rather orthodox to me. Can someone tell me in simple (layman) language what is the big controversy about Piper?

JR

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As a fellow member of the PCA, I have not heard a single one of our elders calling Piper a heretic. I have read his books in question and would recommend them. I believe that they are now online on his websited desiringgood.org

Of course, he is one of those dunkers and you gotta watch out for anyone who has permission to hold your head underwater. (As a father of a teen girl, this idea of immersion of prospective dates somehow appeals to me so he can't be all bad.)

CCWoody said:

Of course, he is one of those dunkers and you gotta watch out for anyone who has permission to hold your head underwater. (As a father of a teen girl, this idea of immersion of prospective dates somehow appeals to me so he can't be all bad.)

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LOL! Thanks for the chuckle this morning!

CC&E