Jews and Christian Zionism

arunma said:

Well speaking as an evangelical I would be strongly opposed to any legislation that would compel American citizens to practice Christianity.

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Most evangelicals I have met would agree with you.

marli said:

By Israelite, I don't mean the political, Mediterranean nation of Israel. I mean the children of Israel; that is, Jacob's children.

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Unless you are speaking in a strictly ethnic sense, then Jewish and Gentile Christians comprise the nation of Israel.

peepnklown said:

Shouldn’t a discussion about Zionism be placed in the politics region?

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It's really not so much a discussion about Zionism
as it is about the Jewish reaction to Christian
Zionists...

ChavaK said:

It's really not so much a discussion about Zionism
as it is about the Jewish reaction to Christian
Zionists...

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And also the Christian reaction to Christian Zionism. For these two reasons, it seems like more of a religious issue than a political one.

Besides that, on a purely political level I'm all for supporting Israel. This should demonstrate that there is a distinct religious issue here. Specifically: the Christian Zionist movement seriously misinterprets the meaning of the New Covenant. It is a theological error to view the state of Israel as a "chosen people," or to support it on that basis. Perhaps it is telling that many American Christians lauded "God's righteous judgment against the heathen" last year when Israeli missiles killed Lebanese Christians. Am I the only one who sees the irony?

arunma said:

And also the Christian reaction to Christian Zionism.

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Although that wasn't the intent of the OP....
Heard a secular Israeli Jew yesterday who
has written a book heartily supporting
Christian Zionism. Said that Israelis fully
support and work with Christian Zionists,
while the American Jews are suspicious
and want nothing to do with them....

Basically, my view is that if you're a Christian (Zionist or not) who respects my beliefs, then all is well and good. But if you don't respect my beliefs and you're essentially just being a suck-up, then you're worse than the intolerant Christians who at least have the decency to admit it (plus there's a sort of insidious anti-Semitism about it, in a brown-nosing the "Jewish conspiracy" sort of way).

Few things irk me more than when I see an unpleasant Christian having a hissy fit and saying disrespectful things about atheists, Muslims etc - and then pretend to like me when I say I'm Jewish.

rosesandravens said:

Basically, my view is that if you're a Christian (Zionist or not) who respects my beliefs, then all is well and good. But if you don't respect my beliefs and you're essentially just being a suck-up, then you're worse than the intolerant Christians who at least have the decency to admit it (plus there's a sort of insidious anti-Semitism about it, in a brown-nosing the "Jewish conspiracy" sort of way).

Few things irk me more than when I see an unpleasant Christian having a hissy fit and saying disrespectful things about atheists, Muslims etc - and then pretend to like me when I say I'm Jewish.

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You seem to have identified a rather interesting phenomenon among fundamentalist Christians. Regarding respect for non-Christian religions, I agree that it is important for Christians to respect all people. However, any orthodox Christian (i.e. a person who believes in the holy Scriptures) will note that according to the Bible, all non-Christian religions, whether Judaism, Islam, or Buddhism, are all false, and are incapable of imparting salvation to the believer. So while Christians are certainly commanded to respect non-Christians, there is a certain limit to the respect that we can accord their religions. Certainly we can respect whatever is good and true in false religions, but not to the extent that we can say it is OK to practice false religions, or that those who practice false religions will be saved. While fundamentalist Christians are all to happy to proclaim "you're going to hell!" this puts the rest of us orthodox Christians in a rather unhappy dilemma. How does one respect a belief that one knows to be folly?

Now, I say that your previous post is interesting for the following reasons. Among fundamentalist Christians there is a belief that the Jews are God's "chosen people." This contrasts with the Biblical doctrine that anyone who believes in Jesus, regardless of his Jewishness, is chosen by God. Yet fundamentalists choose to believe it anyway, and so while they are eager to condemn others to hell, they make an exception for Jews.

I wonder, which would you find more disrespectful? The orthodox Christian position, or the fundamentalist one?

Well, first I'd like to dispute your claim that any orthodox Christian believes that non-Christian religions are false religions. I have Christian friends who do not share this belief (but trust me when I say they're good, devout people - a few are even saving themselves for marriage, the whole deal).

Regardless, if that is their belief, then I choose to respect it. I don't agree (obviously, hehe!) but I'm not going to be all "You're wrong, you're an idiot and you smell!"

So, in the case of orthodox Christians, as you put it, as opposed to fundamentalist Christians... I guess that sort of respect is the same as my own polite disagreement with, but still respect, for that very belief. It's agreeing to disagree and not attack a person or their beliefs. Live and let live.

Also, in my experience, fundamentalists Christians do not think we're saved. Quite the opposite. They still, deep down, have the same intolerant, disrespectful attitude towards Jews as they do towards any other non-Christian - it's just that some pretend otherwise. That is what I find the most offensive and disgusting, not to mention somewhat patronising. I sure don't want them kissing my backside, particularly if it's all a lie.

arunma said:

You seem to have identified a rather interesting phenomenon among fundamentalist Christians. Regarding respect for non-Christian religions, I agree that it is important for Christians to respect all people. However, any orthodox Christian (i.e. a person who believes in the holy Scriptures) will note that according to the Bible, all non-Christian religions, whether Judaism, Islam, or Buddhism, are all false, and are incapable of imparting salvation to the believer. So while Christians are certainly commanded to respect non-Christians, there is a certain limit to the respect that we can accord their religions. Certainly we can respect whatever is good and true in false religions, but not to the extent that we can say it is OK to practice false religions, or that those who practice false religions will be saved. While fundamentalist Christians are all to happy to proclaim "you're going to hell!" this puts the rest of us orthodox Christians in a rather unhappy dilemma. How does one respect a belief that one knows to be folly?

Now, I say that your previous post is interesting for the following reasons. Among fundamentalist Christians there is a belief that the Jews are God's "chosen people." This contrasts with the Biblical doctrine that anyone who believes in Jesus, regardless of his Jewishness, is chosen by God. Yet fundamentalists choose to believe it anyway, and so while they are eager to condemn others to hell, they make an exception for Jews.

I wonder, which would you find more disrespectful? The orthodox Christian position, or the fundamentalist one?

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contradicts? Perhaps you can explain this:

or perhaps you should just read it:


Romans 11:1-32 1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

replacement theology are lies straight from the pits of hell.

Israel is not a church, Israel is a country.

Jews returning to their homeland is a fulfillment of prophesy for our messiah to return, and when he does, *tries to put words together to not get in trouble*; he will arrive to Jerusalem. There will be a 1000 year reign on earth with nothing but shalom.

stone said:

replacement theology are lies straight from the pits of hell.

Israel is not a church, Israel is a country.

Jews returning to their homeland is a fulfillment of prophesy for our messiah to return, and when he does, *tries to put words together to not get in trouble*; he will arrive to Jerusalem. There will be a 1000 year reign on earth with nothing but shalom.

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Yes, I know. Anything that does not adhere to fundamentalist ideology is "straight from the pits of hell." In the past few months on CF, I've heard that many things are from the pits of hell, including Calvinism, science, the Democratic party, the Catholic Church, Tae Kwon Do, all translations of the Bible after the KJV, and a few others. The phrase doesn't really have the same effect on me anymore.

Anyway, I'm not really sure which portion of my earlier post you dispute. While I briefly mentioned that the church is the true spiritual Israel, my salient point was that no one can be saved by virtue of Jewishness. Are you suggesting that Jews who do not believe in Jesus will be saved? Or are you simply arguing in favor of dispensationalist doctrine?

provide scriptures, and we'll go from there

stone said:

replacement theology are lies straight from the pits of hell.

Israel is not a church, Israel is a country.

Jews returning to their homeland is a fulfillment of prophesy for our messiah to return, and when he does, *tries to put words together to not get in trouble*; he will arrive to Jerusalem. There will be a 1000 year reign on earth with nothing but shalom.

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No Israel was a people born from a person named Jacob/Israel.

Btw, what are these 2 covenants Paul is talking about. I am actually trying to get the Muslims interested in looking at Ishmael and Isaac as "types/symbolic".

Gala 4:30 but what saith the Writing? `Be you casting out! [#1544 ekbale] the maid-servant and her son [OC Church?], for the son of the maid-servant may not be heir with the son of the free-woman;'[NC Church?] [Genesis 21:10/Revelation 11:2 "court of the Preists]

Reve 11:2 and, the Court/Palace [Court of High Priest/Altar of Burnt Offerings?] the one without the Sanctuary[#3485], be you casting out!! [#1544 ekbale] out-side,[exw #1854] and you should not be measuring, that it was given unto the nations/eqnesin <1484>

i wasn't talking about seed, ok this is way off topic, forgiet it.

stone said:

provide scriptures, and we'll go from there

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I don't even know what we're discussing. You seem to be reading into my posts more than you ought to, and I think we can agree that circuitousness is also straight from the pits of hell. I would appreciate an answer to my earlier questions. Do you wish to discuss dispensationalism? Or do you wish to argue that Jews can be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ?

Uh, guys? Are you arguing over my religion? Because it kind of looks that way.

rosesandravens said:

Uh, guys? Are you arguing over my religion? Because it kind of looks that way.

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I'm just trying to figure out what we are arguing!

I don't even know what we're discussing. You seem to be reading into my posts more than you ought to, and I think we can agree that circuitousness is also straight from the pits of hell. I would appreciate an answer to my earlier questions. Do you wish to discuss dispensationalism? Or do you wish to argue that Jews can be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ?

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rosesandravens said:

Uh, guys? Are you arguing over my religion? Because it kind of looks that way.

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That generally happens between Messianics and Christ-ians. The "Cross" finished it for me and I thank the Jews for the Christ and Life through Him.

Orthodox Jew
Messianic Jew
Non-Jewish Christ-ian.

(Young) Genesis 15:17 And it cometh to pass--the sun hath gone in, and thick darkness hath been--and lo, a furnace of smoke, and a lamp/torch of fire, which hath passed over between those pieces. 18 In that day hath Jehovah cut with Abram a covenant, saying, `To thy seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Phrat, [symoblic of Pentecost?]