Jesus only gave 1 commandment

Anguspure · Sep 21, 2017

radhead said:
That made no sense. Can you please answer that again in plain English?

Who were the apostles, and how were they different from the "twelve"?
ANYONE?

There is no difference. The Apostles are the 12.

radhead · Sep 21, 2017

Anguspure said:
There is no difference. The Apostles are the 12.

Really? Your first answer seemed to acknowledge the discrepancy in the passage. But now you are acting as if there is none. Whatever.

Anguspure · Sep 21, 2017

radhead said:
Really? Your first answer seemed to acknowledge the discrepancy in the passage. But now you are acting as if there is none. Whatever.

My first answer recognized that the question may well be asked about an apparent discrepancy in the text, but by recognizing a common literary device one may well resolve the issue.
Now I am giving you a plain answer. Either way you have difficulty.
I am reminded of what Jesus said to the Jews: "
To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:

“ ‘We played the pipe for you,

and you did not dance;

we sang a dirge,

and you did not mourn.’ (Matthew 11)

So here is a link that will provide a different answer to the one I gave you again: Apostles Who Weren't Part of the Twelve? | Catholic Answers

radhead · Sep 21, 2017

Anguspure said:
My first answer recognized that the question may well be asked about an apparent discrepancy in the text, but by recognizing a common literary device one may well resolve the issue.
Now I am giving you a plain answer. Either way you have difficulty.
I am reminded of what Jesus said to the Jews: "
To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:

“ ‘We played the pipe for you,

and you did not dance;

we sang a dirge,

and you did not mourn.’ (Matthew 11)

So here is a link that will provide a different answer to the one I gave you again: Apostles Who Weren't Part of the Twelve? | Catholic Answers

Singing and dancing? That was Jesus referring to religious people who claimed to "worship" God by singing and dancing. When I go to an evangelical church that is their definition of worship. But TRUE worship is loving God by loving his children, which includes your neighbor. Or, all people.

Regarding my question, now you have given a THIRD answer which contradicts your second one. Your second statement was that they were the same group. Now you are suggesting that they were an entirely different group.

I'm reminded of the Bible passages that describe a person who is inconsistent and therefore cannot be trusted in any matter. Not to say that you are alone in this, but do you see my point?

ViaCrucis · Sep 21, 2017

The Great Commandment is in two parts: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul, and with all your strength; and love your neighbor as yourself." In Mark it includes the Shema, "Hear O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one.", Matthew and Luke do not include the Shema.

These two commandments are not original with Jesus, both are found in the Torah; and Jesus gives them as answer to "What is the greatest commandment?" Which the Church has received as The Great Commandment, upon which hangs the entirety of Divine Law.

The question, "What is the greatest commandment?" and the discussion of this question is a standard rabbinical topic, to which numerous rabbis gave various responses; the most famous example in Judaism is when a Gentile seeking to interrogate various Jewish religious leaders on what the chief article of the Jewish religion is finally asks his question of the great Jewish sage Hillel the Elder, to which Hillel answers, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole of the Torah, the rest is commentary."

In both Jewish commentary, and Christian tradition, these two: "Love the Lord your God ... love your neighbor as yourself" form two sides of the same coin: The love of God and the love of one's neighbor are subsumed into each other.

For the Christian we look to see St. John who writes, "If anyone says they love God but hates their brother they are a liar and the truth is not in them." That it is impossible to love God and hate one's fellow man; for we are taught that man is created in the image and likeness of God. If we love God, then we will love others; and if we love others we shall love God. It is impossible to divide and separate this love; for to despise one or the other is to despise all. And the Christian has the words of their Lord who says, "I was hungry" and "I was thirsty" and "I was naked" and "I was a foreigner", how we treated the least of these is how we treated our Lord. To deprive food from the hungry, to turn away the foreigner and the refugee is to despise God. And to such a person, on the Day of Judgment, is said, "Away from Me worker of iniquity, I never knew you."

So we see here that the Great Commandment, comprised of two commandments, are truly one; and indeed as Christ Himself has taught, "upon these hangs the entire Law and the Prophets", for herein is the entirety of the Divine Law: that we love God and our neighbor, to love and walk justly and with mercy, and to be compassionate to all, seeking the good of everyone, and caring for the least and being on the side of the maligned and disenfranchised.

-CryptoLutheran

Anguspure · Sep 21, 2017

radhead said:
Singing and dancing? That was Jesus referring to religious people who claimed to "worship" God by singing and dancing. When I go to an evangelical church that is their definition of worship. But TRUE worship is loving God by loving his children, which includes your neighbor. Or, all people.

You really need to read the work before you make such silly assertions about it:

After Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in the towns of Galilee.

When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”

Jesus replied, “Go back and report to John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”

As John’s disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind? If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings’ palaces. Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is the one about whom it is written:

“ ‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,

who will prepare your way before you.’

Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

“To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:

“ ‘We played the pipe for you,

and you did not dance;

we sang a dirge,

and you did not mourn.’

For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.” (Matthew 11)

Regarding my question, now you have given a THIRD answer which contradicts your second one. Your second statement was that they were the same group. Now you are suggesting that they were an entirely different group.

I'm reminded of the Bible passages that describe a person who is inconsistent and therefore cannot be trusted in any matter. Not to say that you are alone in this, but do you see my point?

If I am expected to be the authority on this matter then you may expect me to have only one definitive answer to your question.
Alas I am not the authority, rather I am a mere student.

In my first response I supplied a way of thinking about the question, in the second I gave you what I think, in the link was a reference to further discussion on the subject.

In doing so I have covered a number of bases of thought on a question that even those who study the subject professionally are not settled on.

You accuse me of inconsistency when I am being candidly open minded and ready for a conversation on a topic. If I was being dogmatic you would probably have a moan about that as well.

 ‘We played the pipe for you,

and you did not dance;

we sang a dirge,

and you did not mourn.’

radhead · Sep 21, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
The Great Commandment is in two parts: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul, and with all your strength; and love your neighbor as yourself." In Mark it includes the Shema, "Hear O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one.", Matthew and Luke do not include the Shema.

These two commandments are not original with Jesus, both are found in the Torah; and Jesus gives them as answer to "What is the greatest commandment?" Which the Church has received as The Great Commandment, upon which hangs the entirety of Divine Law.

The question, "What is the greatest commandment?" and the discussion of this question is a standard rabbinical topic, to which numerous rabbis gave various responses; the most famous example in Judaism is when a Gentile seeking to interrogate various Jewish religious leaders on what the chief article of the Jewish religion is finally asks his question of the great Jewish sage Hillel the Elder, to which Hillel answers, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole of the Torah, the rest is commentary."

In both Jewish commentary, and Christian tradition, these two: "Love the Lord your God ... love your neighbor as yourself" form two sides of the same coin: The love of God and the love of one's neighbor are subsumed into each other.

For the Christian we look to see St. John who writes, "If anyone says they love God but hates their brother they are a liar and the truth is not in them." That it is impossible to love God and hate one's fellow man; for we are taught that man is created in the image and likeness of God. If we love God, then we will love others; and if we love others we shall love God. It is impossible to divide and separate this love; for to despise one or the other is to despise all. And the Christian has the words of their Lord who says, "I was hungry" and "I was thirsty" and "I was naked" and "I was a foreigner", how we treated the least of these is how we treated our Lord. To deprive food from the hungry, to turn away the foreigner and the refugee is to despise God. And to such a person, on the Day of Judgment, is said, "Away from Me worker of iniquity, I never knew you."

So we see here that the Great Commandment, comprised of two commandments, are truly one; and indeed as Christ Himself has taught, "upon these hangs the entire Law and the Prophets", for herein is the entirety of the Divine Law: that we love God and our neighbor, to love and walk justly and with mercy, and to be compassionate to all, seeking the good of everyone, and caring for the least and being on the side of the maligned and disenfranchised.

-CryptoLutheran

I appreciate that. I believe you are the first one in this thread to even mention Hillel the Elder.

radhead · Sep 21, 2017

Anguspure, the fact is that Christians still very strongly believe that singing and dancing are equated with "worship". In my opinion they couldn't be further from the truth. And when you say that "loving your neighbors" is something that silly children would do, then I would have to say that you are in such spiritual darkness that you couldn't see your hand in front of your own face.

I suggest you go back and read the Old Testament a few times before you pretend to be an expert on the New Testament, as so many Christians do. Everything in the New Testament will become much clearer if you do so.

ViaCrucis · Sep 21, 2017

radhead said:
Anguspure, the fact is that Christians still very strongly believe that singing and dancing are equated with "worship".

This is generalization. If you want to know what most Christians understand worship to be, look to what the majority of Christians, both today and historically, understand worship.

Even the great Neo-Evangelical father, Billy Graham, said "The highest form of worship is the worship of unselfish Christian service. The greatest form of praise is the sound of consecrated feet seeking out the lost and helpless."

The gathered worship of the Divine Liturgy or Mass is a distinct expression of worship whereby we, acting together, receive the gifts of God's grace (His Word and Sacraments) and respond in thanks and praise; but Christian worship extends into a form of life involving the entirety of living out our faith in our day-to-day; prayer, repentance, and serving our neighbor. The use of sacred songs and hymns is a dimension of Christian worship, namely in our Sacred Liturgies, as expressions of confession, thankfulness, and praise in response to God's works and grace.

The idea that "singing and dancing" are the same thing as "worship", is not an idea that "Christians" have--at least not as understood by most Christians and by the ancient and historic practice and theology of the Church catholic.

-CryptoLutheran

radhead · Sep 22, 2017

It bothers me that anyone would quote Billy Graham because he represents the darkest part of religion. That quote sounds like he is referring to preaching. Preaching!

What better example of the goat than Billy Graham. You can get into the kingdom simply by "believing in magic". Sorry, but I am 100% certain that it doesn't work that way.

I just don't hear anywhere in the Bible that God makes preaching the highest form of service to our human neighbor. I'm reminded of the fat and happy Christians who leave Chic Tracts on the restaurant tables instead of a tip. That just doesn't make sense.

Targaryen · Sep 22, 2017

radhead said:
It bothers me that anyone would quote Billy Graham because he represents the darkest part of religion. That quote sounds like he is referring to preaching. Preaching

Billy Graham is the darkest part of religion? Seriously? Graham is generally respected if a conservative evangelical. He's hardly the darkest part of religion. Heck I can give you names of far worse and actually destructive "preachers". Robert Tilton, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Kenneth Copeland, John Hagee, the late Fred Phelps and the late Jerry Falwell. Sorry but Billy Graham is actually far from the darkest part of even Christian preachers.

radhead said:
What better example of the goat than Billy Graham. You can get into the kingdom simply by "believing in magic". Sorry, but I am 100% certain that it doesn't work that way.

I'm reminded by something R.A Salvatore wrote in his book, Streams Of Silver:

"No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith."

I bolded The part of the line that is rather significant to me. Mystery. We can go on and on about the Big Bang or how 2 and 2 make 4 or practical facts. But where is the mystery to life there? Where is the appreciation for the flower's power to bring a smile to someone's face or it's scent bringing up memories? While yes, it could be explain, but doesn't it feel mysterious to someone at times? Faith is about the mystery to life, a deeper search for meaning then can be fully explained. The Bible is written in that premise, to explain the mystery to our lives and give us a sense of how that mystery should be explored. So yes, faith does work 100% that way.

radhead said:
I just don't hear anywhere in the Bible that God makes preaching the highest form of service to our human neighbor. That just doesn't make sense.

Gospel of Matthew 28:

18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

radhead · Sep 22, 2017

Targaryen said:
Billy Graham is the darkest part of religion? Seriously? Graham is generally respected if a conservative evangelical. He's hardly the darkest part of religion. Heck I can give you names of far worse and actually destructive "preachers". Robert Tilton, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Kenneth Copeland, John Hagee, the late Fred Phelps and the late Jerry Falwell. Sorry but Billy Graham is actually far from the darkest part of even Christian preachers.

18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Some of those preachers were a lot closer to what Paul's churches were like. I can picture the early church members speaking in tongues and sounding like gibberish. Paul described that himself. He also described the antichrists as those who would "sit" in church.

I'm sorry. Jesus gave that command to a small group of people in a fictional story. I don't care if people today are dumb enough to believe it was a true story. There are so many clues to the reader, that you would have to literally blind to believe it was true. But even if you did try to apply that to yourself, it still doesn't say anything about preaching.

radhead · Sep 22, 2017

Targaryen · Sep 22, 2017

radhead said:
Some of those preachers were a lot closer to what Paul's churches were like. I can picture the early church members speaking in tongues and sounding like gibberish. Paul described that himself. He also described the antichrists as those who would "sit" in church.

Paul yes did speak of those, but he also said that women shouldn't speak in church and a few other things. Again, you are assuming that Biblical faith cannot undergo re-examination and re-interpretation and yet stay true to it's core function. And as for the preachers listed. Let's see Dollar,Titlton,Hinn and Copeland could be known for charismata, but they are more known for peddling something called the prosperity gospel. Go look for the Tilton scandal on YouTube to see why this is far darker then Graham. Fred Phelps,well I'm sure you've heard of Westboro so I doubt I need to expand on that. Falwell's extremist views is partly responsible for the over egging by the "christian coalition" in the US. And actually, Speaking in tongues is still done these days any a lot of denominations, it's just not widespread as a the Pentecostals would do so. It's called the Charismatic Revival.

radhead said:
I'm sorry. Jesus gave that command to a small group of people in a fictional story. I don't care if people today are dumb enough to believe it was a true story. There are so many clues to the reader, that you would have to literally blind to believe it was true. But even if you did try to apply that to yourself, it still doesn't say anything about preaching.

I guess you missed the Bible narrative then, shall I highlight it again, or do you just want to ignore it once more?

As for this fictional story thing, I'm sorry, I had assumed you were here cause you had wanted to learn what Christians believe and why they do. But it seems you're far more interested in playing the fundamentalist game of "reject anything that disrupts my worldview." Strange, you kept mentioning prior in the thread how we should be more socially aware and that was the crux of it all, yet when you beliefs are confronted, you choose to pretty much go back to attacks. And an ad hom attack at that to claim that Christians are "dumb" for their belief. That somehow in your mind intelligence, practical study and faith should not and cannot mix. A pretty sad, and rather disappointing reaction from someone that with the Humanist tag, should be trying to look for the best in humankind.

BigDaddy4 · Sep 22, 2017

radhead said:
I just don't hear anywhere in the Bible

Anguspure said:
 ‘We played the pipe for you,

and you did not dance;

we sang a dirge,

and you did not mourn.’

Point made. It's not about "singing and dancing". It's about hearing and responding.

Anguspure · Sep 22, 2017

radhead said:
Anguspure, the fact is that Christians still very strongly believe that singing and dancing are equated with "worship". In my opinion they couldn't be further from the truth. And when you say that "loving your neighbors" is something that silly children would do, then I would have to say that you are in such spiritual darkness that you couldn't see your hand in front of your own face.

I suggest you go back and read the Old Testament a few times before you pretend to be an expert on the New Testament, as so many Christians do. Everything in the New Testament will become much clearer if you do so.

LOL

Indeed:

In God, whose word I praise—

in God I trust and am not afraid.

What can mere mortals do to me?

All day long they twist my words;

all their schemes are for my ruin. (Psalm 56)

Jesus only gave 1 commandment

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ

Contributor

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ

Contributor

Confessional Lutheran

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ

Contributor

Contributor

Confessional Lutheran

Contributor

Scripture,Tradition and Reason

Contributor

Contributor

Scripture,Tradition and Reason

It's a new season...

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency