My post specified the
written law (the
letter of the law in scripture). Hence God's righteousness that comes by grace through faith, does not come from the
written law because God's Character and His righteousness precedes the letter of the law. God's righteous Character is revealed in the Gospel of His Son. I don't believe the bible can fully describe a Glory that surpasses all written words, it can only testify to Him. But Jesus IS the Living Word come in the flesh. Which is why scripture testifies:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And
the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
12 But as many as received him,
to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
So with that in mind, as pertains to your thoughts above, I would think God precedes all things created, including the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the scriptures, the law and sin. I don't see
Romans 4:15 as meaning to convey that the law was in existence before it was written, nor does it convey that where there is no law there is no sin.
The context is about the inheritance being attained through promise rather than performing the law. <--- Abraham's faith was before the law
Romans 4
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Moreover, the thought that sin is not imputed where there is no law would indicate that sin came before the law and that the written law was added because of sin, and for sin. It denotes that sin or transgressions against others existed before the law was given, which is why sin is made known (revealed) in the transgression of the law. That's not meant to deny that sin takes occasion of the law to abound.
Galatians 3
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Romans 5:13
13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
None of these scriptures indicate the law started in heaven. We know scripture says Lucifer sinned even because iniquity was found in him, but scripture says the iniquity/sin in Lucifer's case began with prideful vanity and doesn't mention the law. It makes sense that vanity would first manifest through a creature occupying a high station.
Ezekial 28:15
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:
Isaiah 14
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Jesus taught that we will be judged according to what measure we use to judge others.
Having said that, I note that Eve did not know of good and evil in her state of innocence. To love others as myself, I don't feel I have any right to judge Adam or Eve. For I note that she was deceived by the cunning of a creature with greater knowledge than her, just as we all have been deceived into desires based on futile imaginings. The fall of mankind was predicated upon a lie presented with subtlety. It's better to show grace, humility, understanding, and mercy, if we wish to receive mercy. This is why Jesus teaches us to pray in this manner, "Forgive us our sins even as we forgive those who sin against us".
I see this connection ---> if I condemn Eve as if she deliberately knew what she was doing, then I'm believing the same defamatory lie that the serpent was insinuating. To rephrase: I will be saying that God is a liar if I say Eve was not deceived into doing what she did. To rephrase again: Since God isn't a liar about death entering into mankind upon eating of the tree, then Eve was deceived into eating.
I understand how you can say that the law is not the issue, we are. I would have said the law is not the issue, the vanity in the creature that begets sin is the issue. --->The sin that entered in through the knowledge of good and evil, the same sin that was lying at the door of Cain's heart wanting to devour him --->was born out of vanity. Wherefore all Christian Churches I am familiar with magnify the Christ Image above the law. The following scriptures carry the same sentiment.
John 5
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Matthew 5:17
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Well, I've never heard any Christian say we should disobey the law so it's strange when someone says we shouldn't be saying to break the law. Moreover, I have already forgiven those who sin against me saying within myself that it's okay. That is to say I believe that the person will someday regret what they did, just like I have regretted things I've done. The reason I keep bringing up that the scriptures magnify Christ above the law, is because I don't believe the letter of the law shows God's righteousness at a standard equal to the Christ Image.
Where in the letter does the law say that we must sacrifice ourselves on a cross and forgive our crucifiers? Where is that standard of righteousness described clearly in the law? For I see the Christ Image who had no sin, displayed on a cross suffering our sins so that sins can be forgiven. And I hear Jesus telling me that if I don't pick up my own cross and do the same, I am not worthy of him. By comparison, I don't see how the letter of the law can manifest such a Spirit of Love in me that would suffer a crucifixion when the purpose of the law is meant to condemn sinners.
It appears to me that Satan can use the law to both tempt and accuse. Though he held the power of death, I think he was defeated because he could not imagine such a love that justified sinners with the resurrection unto life. It's my belief that God has made it so that righteousness comes by grace through faith without the law, so that no creature can glory just like the vanity that manifested in Lucifer through the false image of god he had imagined.
childeye 2 said:
I'm saying I don't believe there is a need to tell Christians who have the righteousness of God dwelling in them by grace through faith, that they must keep the letter of the law since the Spirit in them is greater than the letter of the law.
If you think that what I said above is an argument to disobey the law, you're mistaken.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled. I consider that these people who hunger and thirst for the righteousness of God are seeking righteousness by grace through faith; and they do not need to be told not to sin even because they acknowledge they can't not sin, and this is why they thirst and hunger for righteousness. So, likewise I'm saying that those who are filled having been born out of a promise from God, and who will become children of God by the will of God, also don't need to be told not to sin even because they were filled with righteousness.
Sometimes I have problems on these forums understanding people's thoughts. Above, you ask a question and then say you'll show two teachings as examples, even though you didn't make a statement. If this a rhetorical question, it brings to mind that if the letter of the law said to stone someone to death for an action of sin, when in fact we all sin, that would be hypocritical judgment and contrary to the Holy Spirit.
To me, the Christ shows forth a higher standard of righteousness than the letter of the law. It's good that we recognize the need to be cleansed and quickened on the inside. There is a difference between doing the law as an outward appearance of self-righteousness and experiencing the inward righteousness that comes by grace through faith without the law. Jesus is saying that we must clean the inside of the cup so that the outside will be clean. To that end, I do not check to make sure I'm doing the letter of the law, because I want to walk in the righteousness that comes by grace through faith.
When I read
Isaiah 42:21, I believe the context is speaking about this --->
John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.