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Jesus is trying to save us, again and again

FutureAndAHope

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Readers: Be aware that what is false is posted more often then what is true. Even with thousands of seemingly authentic references - some planned for centuries or longer, to deceive today.
All the Early Church Fathers believed in the idea of man being a free agent in regard to salvation. It is a relatively modern invention to believe in a preselected salvation. Let's think about this a little, all the early church believed in free agency, until Augustine. So for 400 years the church taught free will. You can call it deception if you like. But I trust that this too is the word of God:

Below I quote some of the scriptures that show that all means both Jew and Gentile, all people of the world.

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (NKJV, 1 Timothy 4:10)​

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (NKJV, 1John 2:2)​

The fact is Jesus’s ransom was given for all men, for there is not one that God does not love. For God is love.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, (NKJV, 1Timothy 2:3-6)​


God desires salvation for all, but not all will receive him.
 
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David Lamb

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I disagree with the word "trying" in the thread title. I think of the angel's words to Joseph about Jesus:

““And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”” (Mt 1:21 NKJV)

Not, "He will try to save His people from their sins."
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Let's return to the original post. How does that fit with your theology? A God who attempts to bring fruit to the tree. What is fruit? Faith and repentance. There is a clear "IF", if the tree produces, it will be kept alive; otherwise, it will be cut down.

This is the same call from the OT, there is a clear "IF":

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

God opens our ears, but we must respond.
 
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David Lamb

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I see Scripture as saying that God is almighty, and does (rather than attempts to do) all that He pleases. Yes, God opens our ears and we must respond, but we can only respond positively when God works in us. The balance is clear in Scripture. For instance:

“12 ¶ Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” (Php 2:12-13 NKJV)
 
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BNR32FAN

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In John 5:34 Jesus is talking to unbelievers who are seeking to kill Him and He says this to them…

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Then just a few sentences later He tells them that He will not be their accuser before The Father but instead Moses will be the one to accuse them.

“Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭45‬ NASB1995

Just like in the parable in Luke 13:6-9 Jesus is trying to save people who refuse to repent and believe.

In Romans 2:4-5 Paul tells the Jews that God’s kindness and patience is leading them to repentance but because of their stubborn heart they refuse to repent and will receive the wrath of God on Judgement day.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

In Revelation 2:20-21 Jesus gives Jezebel time to repent but she refuses to cooperate.

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭20‬-‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

God has been trying to get the nation of Israel to repent for half of the Old Testament and during His entire ministry and they still refused to cooperate. The scriptures are full of examples of God urging people to repent who refused to cooperate.
 
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David Lamb

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The God of the bible never makes attempts which fail. Over and over, He is referred to as "Almighty" or "omnipotent." We have verses like:

“For He spoke, and it was [done]; He commanded, and it stood fast.” (Ps 33:9 NKJV)

In the verses you quote, there is not a single mention of Him trying to do something and not succeeding. Romans 2_4-5 mention His kindness and His patience, but not Him trying and failing. The same with Revelation 2:20-21.
 
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Clare73

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Right and we’ve been thru this countless times before where you say that God’s decision on who He was going to choose is based on His foreknowledge of who He was going to choose which is circular reasoning.
Misrepresentation. . .is that deliberate?

Review post #7.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Lol So Romans 2:4-5 doesn’t say that His kindness and patience is leading them to repentance? Like the exact same wording in 2 Peter 3:9?

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And why is Jesus giving Jezebel time to repent if The Father hasn’t enabled her to repent? That would be like me waiting for my favorite tv show to come on knowing that I didn’t plug in the power cord.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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I quite like those scriptures. So much so I added a section to my website with it (along with some other supporting scriptures). Below i s the content added.

Man and Repentance​

Calvinism basically presents the idea that God just selects certain ones for salvation and that selection is irresistible. That the person will be saved because God has decreed it.

In this section we wish to show that salvation can be resisted. We start with the following parable.

He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?' But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.' " (NKJV, Luke 13:6-9)​

The parable is talking about people, and how God comes to look for fruit, but finding none, does God give up? No, He tries again to bring the person to repentance, by fertilizing the tree. Note the scripture has a clear “IF”, “if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.”. The concept of “person” driven repentance is also found in the following:

He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge. (NKJV, Job 36:10-12)​

Note the “If”, if the person repents, they will have life, if they don’t repent they will perish. In the book of John, Jesus was talking to unbelievers, and he said:

Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. (NKJV, John 5:34 )​
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. (NKJV, John 5:40)​

We see here Jesus saying He spoke to them that they “may be saved”, but they “are not willing to come”. Jesus always extends salvation but people are often unwilling. As is shown in the following:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! (NKJV, Matthew 23:37)​

God wanted to save the people of Israel over the generations, but they were for the most part unwilling.

Romans shows that God wants to extend repentance, but people often are stubborn in heart and unrepentant.

Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,(NKJV, Romans 2:4-5)​

The book of Revelation also shows that God gives people “time to repent”.

Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. (NKJV, Revelation 2:20-21)​

God was obviously extending repentance, but Jezebel did not repent. Jezebel had a chance to repent. So too with us, the choice for life or death is in our hands.

The idea of repentance was also shown in the Old Testament so it is not a new idea.

Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings.' (NKJV, Jeremiah 26:3)​

Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; then the LORD will relent concerning the doom that He has pronounced against you. (NKJV, Jeremiah 26:13)​

Note the scripture above says “perhaps” everyone will listen, that word means, maybe, possibly, there is an element of the unknown in the persons decision.

'And if by these things you are not reformed by Me, but walk contrary to Me, (NKJV, Leviticus 26:23 )​

Leviticus also shows a process of God bringing various disasters to try to reform, or bring repentance, but we see above there is still the “IF”

So we have seen that God time and time again tries to draw people to repentance, but they may or may not listen. Calvinism’s idea that God randomly selects people for salvation is not consistent with the truth of the Bible regarding repentance. God tries to bring repentance, man can resist it, salvation is not irresistible.

 
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David Lamb

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But none of those verses indicate an almighty, omnipotent God, making attempts to save people which may or may not succeed. Think of God's words in Isaiah:

“9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.” (Isa 46:9-11 NKJV)
 
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BNR32FAN

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Ok you have the passages that I quoted that specifically state that God is urging people to repent and that they are refusing to cooperate, and the passages you quoted that merely state that God will accomplish all that He desires. Obviously God does not desire to save those who refuse to cooperate with Him. Just because God desires for them to be saved doesn’t mean that He desires them to be saved unconditionally. He wants them to choose to love Him, not to be forced against their will to love Him. So the passages you quoted don’t cancel out the passages I quoted, they’re both true, you just have to think about how both can be true, not ignore some verses and not others.
 
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David Lamb

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God is not only all-powerful, He is also all-knowing, as the verses I quoted from Isaiah say. He knows who will believe on Him, and who will refuse to do so. For that reason, to suggest that His urging is equivalent to trying to do something and failing is wrong, in my view.
 
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Aaron112

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There once was a doctor in nyc. He offered or challenged any other doctor in the same field anywhere worldwide to send him any patient/client. He healed with no drugs and no surgery (unless physical damage/scars needed surgery). The patients/clients who were sent to him or who came to him on their own in nyc were healed, all.
The patients/clients/ others , anyone who did not visit him, and who did not learn or use his methods, might have been healed - God Willing. The healing was never restricted to being via just one doctor or person.
But the ones who did not go for healing, often not only were not healed, but spent thousands to tens of thousands of dollars more over a year or two, and got worse. and worse. and worse. This is normally what happens.
 
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