Jesus is a God of conditional Love, not unconditional love. (3)

Again Razz quotes me, and responds:

Razz: "So God is sustaining this thread so that you can post these points? or God is sustaining this thread so that we can continue to post scriptures that are ignored? I'm not following your point."

Neither. God is sustaining this thread so I can be reminded of how frustrating it is to argue from our understanding. Then it seems that we post things that are ignored. But, when we ask Him what and when to post, and affirm or testify that what we are posting is not what we think or what we understand, but what God is telling us, we find life. I was keeping the commandment to hearken to His voice and say what I hear Him saying. Ozell gets close to this in his heavy use of scripture, but neglects the command to live by the present voice of God, the Spirit as others have noted, instead of by the logos of scripture.

groktruth said:

In a Razzelflabben post, we have my quote,

"2. It is a constant reminder of the importance of "keeping the commandments," as essential to salvation."

And her question.
​

how is it a constant reminder of keeping the commandments for salvation? Salvation and love are not the same thing, therefore keeping the commands as they relate to salvation should not be part of this discussion...so how then is it good to continue to take us off topic, even for a biblical truth?

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We are talking about God's love, not God's salvation. Love sums up all the law and prophets, how could there be a more important topic? When we get love wrong, we get salvation and everything else wrong, because salvation is summed up by love.

The command we have is, "Hear everything, prove (or hold onto) what is good." There is a lot to overlook in Ozell's (or my, for that matter) posts. But what is good? Reminding folks that if they don't keep the commandments, they do not have salvation, and to think otherwise is to deceive themselves.

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that is what love tells us, IOW's even salvation is summed up by real love.

Let's look at it another way. Let's say we believe as Ozell that God's love is conditional and then apply that to salvation. Being that love is what sums up all the law and prophets, we then would conclude that I can loose my salvation at the whim of God, there is no consistency, no absolutes. If I have a really bad day and say a cuse word, I loose my salvation and there is no longer hope for me, I might as well give up, because God's love is conditional, I have no chance, why bother. And yes, I know people who have been down that road.
God is about forgiveness, which means that because love is unconditional, we can make a mistake and still be loved, cherished and saved by God because He is not so wishy washy as to say, hey, you tried, but had a bad moment in time, so now it's all over.

Now, your posts are more on thread, and what is good there is your emphasis on rightly dividing the word of truth, "love." According to the wisdom of scripture, rightly dividing words of truth, starting with love, is the sine qua non of the highway to holiness. The first commandment that must be kept, before all others. (It is the first act of "keeping" commandments, since commandments are made of words. The first act of evil--Prov 2:12--is to speak perverse things.)

No one can stay "on topic" if they are not keeping the commandments, starting with the one you keep bringing up. So, both you and Ozell are offering some essential good for others to hold on to.

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I disagree, false teaching can never be good according to scripture.

ozell said:

WELL SAID

the apostles or Prophets never taught unconditional love, Jesus never taught unconditional love.

all through the bible we read where people young and old are being killed in horrific ways by our God and Saviour. why? wickedness, iniquity, sin.

what way do we combat this?
LOVE
which is keeping the commandments.

the problem is that most of us don't know what love is, even here people did not know what the biblical definition of love was until I put the verses.

God will bring those he wants to his table all we can do is put the truth out there.

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Have you looked at Gothard's curriculum on commandment keeping? Why not? It is the only one in existence, in my experience. If you demonstrated commandment keeping by looking at this study, more of your readers might be persuaded.

Meanwhile, is there any way you could affirm Razz's point, that God's love for us will make us welcome if and when we return to Him? Whatever we have done?

We are commanded to pursue wisdom, the correct behavior, and not knowledge, which puffs up. Are you not neglecting this commandment by working so much harder at giving us knowledge, while not encouraging us to do the right thing, both by those who think they are saved, and those who are lost?

ozell said:

The Sister when she is not going emotional on me and when she put the verse is correct on most things yet she put the attributes of love, or what a person suppose to do to show love like THE CHARITY chapter

the biblical definition of love is keeping the commandments
everything else like charity and all the fruits of the spirit fall under the commandments

I'm not offering anything Brother

I put the verse/scriptures and put the examples and let the people choose.

these are God's words not mine.

its a good topic and it is was well responded

I know people will believe what they want and that is between them and God.

thanks for being a mediator, for me the topic will run its course.

peace in Jesus

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and yet I presented several passages that define love differently than you do, and you ignore them....people are quick to point out that I Cor. 13 is not a definition of love, so let me point out to you that passages that tell us to obey are no more a definition of love, but rather are a comment or claim as to what is included in man's love for God. Ah well, this too you will ignore so that you can push your agenda and ignore what scripture really says.

ozell said:

and you ask why I don't respond to you

Sister

we have this discussion on the first page

all of God's word is connected

salvation
commanmdents
redemption
love
baptism
saved
born again
the Holy Spirit

by the way you and your crew mentioned the HS, so since you went there, I felt obligated to correct you all, anyway it is reated to the topic.

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not a clue what you are talking about...I can talk about the HS if you like, in fact, a complete of understanding of love includes the HS but you don't even have an elementary understanding of love, so I'm pretty sure the HS role in love is over your head. Oh, and if you would even try to address the posts as they are presented, you might be amazed at how differently people respond to you...oh, and one more thing, I have yet to be emotional on this thread, in that you give me no reason to be emotional, only scriptural.

ozell said:

sister

why do you think I need to respond to you?

that's very strange.

if you read the post and verses I put your questions and responses are answered.

you don't have a problem with the word of God you have a problem with me.

open up that mind of yours and pay attention to what you post!!

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I have a problem with people who ignore what I say so they can spout more nonsense as if I said nothing, but hey, I'm used to it, so moving on....

groktruth said:

Again, Razzelflabben quotes me,

"3. It is a vivid display of hypocrisy, as poster after poster agrees that keeping the commandments is essential, then proceeds to ignore any and all commandments in what they actually do."

Then comments:
​

interesting claim...only problem is, I only know of one poster that has broken the commandments on this thread. We all have in our lives, but on this thread, I only know of one. Sometimes (as that poster says) truth is difficult to hear, but when scripture calls us a liar it is not a breaking of the commandments to point that out. So question...are you judging here? Trying to stir up anger, which is according to I Cor. 13 not love?

Now, we have the commandment to rebuke the unruly. By unruly, we mean, I believe, those who do what they think makes sense, without playing by the rules. So, in my quote, what commandment was I keeping? Or was I "unruly?" I thought I was in fact warning or rebuking the unruly, or lazy, who "under-criticize" their own posts. They know that keeping the commandments is important, but go on to post things that have little apparent direct connection to a commandment.

Ok, Razz, your turn. Examine your comment, and tell us what commandments you were keeping in your statements.

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In that I am asking you what you mean by this, I'm not sure what commandment you think I am not following...I have no comments against unruly correction but that is not how I understood your quote, which is why I asked for clarity...hum, if I have to apply my post to a commandment, I would have to say that I loved you enough to ask you what you meant rather than to just assume something that wasn't intended. Which would mean, the post does obey, now wouldn't it?

groktruth said:

Again Razz quotes me, and responds:

Me: "4. It is a good reminder of how frustrating it is to argue from our understanding, eschewing the many commands in scripture to speak prophetically, not from what we think or reason, but from what we hear God speaking to us. (And, yes, He told me to post these words, giving them to me in response to my query of Him, "Lord, why are you sustaining this thread?")"
​

Razz: "So God is sustaining this thread so that you can post these points? or God is sustaining this thread so that we can continue to post scriptures that are ignored? I'm not following your point."

Neither. God is sustaining this thread so I can be reminded of how frustrating it is to argue from our understanding. Then it seems that we post things that are ignored. But, when we ask Him what and when to post, and affirm or testify that what we are posting is not what we think or what we understand, but what God is telling us, we find life. I was keeping the commandment to hearken to His voice and say what I hear Him saying. Ozell gets close to this in his heavy use of scripture, but neglects the command to live by the present voice of God, the Spirit as others have noted, instead of by the logos of scripture.

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The only thing I would say here, is that sometimes we hear other voices and call them God's voice. We can only know the voice of God as it will line up with scripture every single time. So when we ignore scriptures presented, we are ignoring the voice of the HS as it is given and known. Not a wise idea...

razzelflabben said:

That seemed obvious from his posts...even the very first ones he presented spoke loud and clear about his non belief. I am interested in knowing more about his specific beliefs but he claims they are too much even for the forum rules so I stopped pushing for more info. So what is your take on God's love, lighthearted?

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First I say you are a trooper razzelflabben, I want to commend you on trying to maintain the conversation to the original topic.Next, you have opened my eyes to the definition of un-conditional love.

One, God offers love first. two, it is man who breaks the love bond, not God. I see as Ozell keeps posting "keeping the commandments". Simply put, break one, you break them all. I can see right off the bat, I've broken at least 3. Oh wait, doesn't it say that if I break one, it is as if I broke them all? So whether I broke 3 that I know of, I still pay the price for breaking them all.

Now Ozell posted John 3:16, I was amazed, here is perfect love, wow he posted it. razzelflabben was also amazed. God, who some say expects mankind to make themselves righteous through the law, which the Bible clearly states cannot be done. Romans, 23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.

The law given to show man their shortcomings of Gods perfection. The law, which cannnot be fulfilled perfectly by any man, since we are all born from adams seed, will fail, doomed to death. Yet one man, Jesus, born not from adams seed but by the Holy Spirit, was not doomed to death, since he was not born from adams seed. This man Jesus, lived perfectly within Gods tollerances of righteousness. The only true son of God. God's own child. The one man with a perfect relationship with God. Knowing well that his son will be beat and hung on a wooden cross, by mankind themselves.

The very creation God desires to have a relationship with on earth. The very creation that sinned terribly against the creator. The ones who where supposed to manage earth. These same creatures are going to take the child of God and torture and hang him on a cross. Funny...... oh boy..... look deeper you people who doubt Gods love. Ozell brings up the flood and Gods wrath. For what brought about the wrath, sin, what sin, sexual, intermarrying, and more I suppose. Hmmm. God wanted to wipe out the iraelites in exodus, for what, sinning, having another god, doubting God, and other things. I could go on......Now we have Jesus, they beat, tortured, hung, ect. Can you imagine any sin more dispicable than that??? The one true Son of God. After the torturing of His Son does God say, "I shall wipe out all the inhabitants of earth"? Heck no, against all mans logic, God uses this major sin for the good of mankind. Do you see the un-conditional love here? I hope so.

Go figure, we watch on tv people at war torturing an american soldier and we want to kill, kill, kill, we want revenge. Yet, God, sitting and watching us do the same thing to his son and instead of wiping all mankind off the face of the earth he uses our torturing of His Son to accually create a way for man to have eternal life. Not only eternal life, but eternal life with Him.WOW, the same mankind, the misserable, sinful, pathetic torturing creation that we are, he offers eternal, neverending, relationship with Him. Here is the way, the only way. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Do you see un-conditional love here? I hope so.

Remember also, Jesus had his arms wide open on the cross, that's an open invitation for all to feel love that is freely given, for it is Grace, un-merrited favor. You did'nt work for it. You cannot boast of what you did to recieve it.

I tell you what. if you want to figure God's love from man's point of view, you are way short of love yourself. There is a spirit that is offered, it is the Holy Spirit. It only comes from realizing your short comings and nothing but the Blood of Jesus can pay the price. If you do not understand the things of the Spirit, it is expected, for it reads.1 Corinthians 2:13 13 When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths.

We the believers of Jesus Christ can not remove the scales from your eyes. It is a hardened heart that keeps the scales on.

ozell said:

Of course you don't have a clue, I've told you this before.

what I have Sister is Godly love!

not emotional love or human love which you present.

Godly love is what I've shown the people here

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slow down partner....whoa nellie...I have repeatedly shown you that biblical love is bigger than emotions, bigger than actions, bigger than attitude and yet you still insist I never said this, that I think love is only emotional? Wow, what a bold lie! As to you showing love, things like this lie of yours, and other such false witness and character judgment without evidence says otherwise. I'm so thankful that your idea of love and God's idea of love are in contrast...Now let's move forward and see if we can find any truth to this post.

1 John 5:2-4


2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

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Oh good, at least something of truth in your post. Only problem is, you have been shown how in context this means that our love for God is demonstrated through out obedience and thus is not the same thing as God's love for us. So where you offer us truth, it is off topic yet again. I was really hoping for something to sink my teeth into, I'm really sick of your milk diet.

Godly love is keeping his commandments

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Godly love yes, God's love for man, no.

God loves us when we keep his commandments
we love God when we keep his commandmnets

what is Godly love? what is Love?

Not Razz love or ozell love

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I showed your several passages that define love as the act of humility in which one puts someone else above self. So why can't you accept those passages? Biblical definition, not Razz definition, not Ozell definition, not Ozell's twisted, out of context version of what the bible says, but you simply ignore the passages and will most assuredly claim they weren't presented. which is yet another lie. When does it end with you Ozell, when do you stop playing God long enough to listen to what God says to you.

this is God's definition of love

Exodus 20

1And God spake all these words, saying,

2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13Thou shalt not kill.

14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15Thou shalt not steal.

16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

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dear one, these are the 10 commandments, not a definition for love. In fact, this is no more a definition of love than I Cor. 13, in fact, it is less than...

this is morality this is the correct behaviour the Lord expects from his servants!!!

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Morality, no, correct behavior yes, but also off topic.

ozell said:

the God of unconditional love should have had some love for these babies

Matthew 2
16Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying,

18In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

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He did and does, you are just looking at it through the eyes of the flesh, not the eyes of the spirit, not the eyes of faith, not the eyes of love....

I thought this was a thread about God's Love... seems someone here is still talking about salvation through works

Statement of belief-
"5-The members of this Non-denominational forum believe that one is saved by grace and not by works of the law (sabbath, and dietary laws are just two examples), and they worship on Sunday. Promotion of the doctrine of salvation by works and Saturday (seventh-day) worship is not allowed. Please discuss these topics in General Theology."


So Razz.. how has God unconditionally loved you today since I can't see anyone else's posts? Today he's answered my prayers by opening a door to teach God's word in a Pastor friend's Church over the holidays and into next year. He allowed people to open their heart and their classrooms to an almost stranger, a laymen, not a scholar, to bring Unity and service into his house. Praise God. God's worked in my heart to rid me of addictions and despite me being an imperfect sinner, shows me the word every day and uses me to spread God's message of Love, unity and peace. He expands my relationships to those in need, and gives me the means necessary to help though in need. Praise be to God for his undying Love and Amazing Grace!

tackattack said:

So Razz.. how has God unconditionally loved you today since I can't see anyone else's posts? Today he's answered my prayers by opening a door to teach God's word in a Pastor friend's Church over the holidays and into next year. He allowed people to open their heart and their classrooms to an almost stranger, a laymen, not a scholar, to bring Unity and service into his house. Praise God. God's worked in my heart to rid me of addictions and despite me being an imperfect sinner, shows me the word every day and uses me to spread God's message of Love, unity and peace. He expands my relationships to those in need, and gives me the means necessary to help though in need. Praise be to God for his undying Love and Amazing Grace!

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wow, so exciting. I am afraid I am struggling at the moment with God's love. I know without a seconds hesitation that I am loved beyond imagination, but with everything going on here this year, it is sometimes difficult to see. Yet today, a friend reminded me how loved we were to be given our son for 18 years, and how very special he was and how loved we were to have gotten to know him before our Lord took him home.

I am preparing for a final exam in our first class preparing for counseling degrees, in which our plan is to do a lot of teaching on love, something I didn't get much time to study today, though I did do some editing of a gift and talent God has blessed me with.

Though we found out yesterday, our youngest gets to avoid surgery and cast on his foot, he may have long term issues, but so far so good. How amazing is God's love!!!!

Today is also the day that a friend is helping us get the truck back on the road so we can get wood for heat this winter...what a wonderful gracious love that provides wood so we don't freeze in the winter. What a wonderful gracious love that brought us to a church that loves, a church that acts like the church of the living God!

He also gave me today, tears. Tears of loss, tears of desire, tears of longing. But tears that heal and grow me in ways I can't even imagine.

What an awesome question to ask.

May you always have eyes to see God's love and a heart receptive to accepting that love for all it's miraculous power.

A bit more about love. Biblical love is emotional, behavioral, attitude and more. As such it is not necessary to have an emotional connection in order to be loved. (it seems some here don't get this)...we know love by the tough things, even as children, we know love because we have rules/boundries, we know love because it is always there even in the disobedience. But knowing and feeling are not the same thing. We "feel", make an emotional connection to love through the rewards, the just becauses.

I can give many examples of this, some that friends are going through right now, but the one I will share with you is personal. I have endured many struggles in my life. One of the worst was loosing our son in a swimming accident in June. The shock still consumes me and that is before we get into the layers of missing him. I do not feel loved by God at the moment. Yet all around me I see His hand, His mercy. Our son did not suffer at all, it was over before anyone including him would have known anything was wrong. He was enjoying himself and spending time with friends. Peoples lives have been touched and changed by his life and love for God. We have discovered Godly ways to deal with grief, found joy in the midst of sorrow, etc. We were blessed and honored to have known him and the treasure that he was. We know love. There can be no question, no doubt that we have been loved by our mighty and powerful Lord. Yet to "feel" love, that is a real trick right now. Because love is not just an emotion, it can be known apart from emotions. The emotional attachments of love have vanished for the season (only a season) we can't look at God and have a warm fuzzy over His wisdom in taking our son home, but we can love Him and know HIs love in return. There will come a day of healing in which we look at our loss and feel loved, but at the moment, the love we know is not one of emotional warm fuzzies but rather one of sustaining us, strengthening us, giving us peace and comfort in a time of great trial. And admittedly, there are brief moments when I look only at myself and in that moment, I feel as though God does not love, but then, I look outside myself and know love once again. You see, real love is not about self at all, it's about others. Real love is about putting others above self (in this case, taking my eyes off self and putting them on God and what He has and is doing) and when we do this, in an act of humility (as Jesus showed us to do), we suddenly find that we have vision to see what others are missing. Vision to see what once was hidden. We find we have vision to see love, not just feel it.

May you have the courage to see beyond yourself, the vision to see what others miss.

I can't even imagine your loss. How true that real love isn't about self. God bless you in seeing God's love and compassion even through the storm. Matthew 14 is the story of Peter being called onto the rough waters by Jesus. How great a testament will you have to weather this storm with your Love and Faith intact. I lovce the last few words of that chapter "and all who touched were healed" . Praise God that he Loves us far more than we could ever love each other.

razzelflabben said:

In that I am asking you what you mean by this, I'm not sure what commandment you think I am not following...I have no comments against unruly correction but that is not how I understood your quote, which is why I asked for clarity...hum, if I have to apply my post to a commandment, I would have to say that I loved you enough to ask you what you meant rather than to just assume something that wasn't intended. Which would mean, the post does obey, now wouldn't it?

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Indeed, "lifting up our voice for understanding " is a commandment!

Thank you for this expression of love.

S.

razzelflabben said:

scripture addresses the luke warm believer, seems to me the answer is NOT to change scripture into saying God's love is conditional, but rather in teaching the totality of scripture in opposition to teaching only the parts that make people feel good. In fact, I know many people who fail to live in God's love and grace because of teaching like Ozell's and others here have said so as well. Point is, we don't change scripture to fit what others may or may not understand, but rather we allow all of scripture to shape us and guide us and teach us truth. When we change scripture as Ozell does, all we do is create an environment in which Satan has more opportunity to deceive. Not wise, and totally against scripture to do so. Two points here. 1. there is an old saying, two wrongs don't make a right. Telling people a lie about God's love doesn't stop the lies Satan throws at people to get them all off track with God and His truths. and 2. Many many many times now, the idea of unconditional love has been presented as it is shown in scripture. There are many words that we use that did not originally exist in the bible but express a truth today. In fact, no english words existed in the bible in the beginning. Therefore, every word we read in english from the Bible every truth we speak, falls into this category of idea over specific word. To make this argument hold water would be to remove all english understanding and we couldn't be communicating at all about the bible. Words do have meanings and so do Ideas and they are expressed through words. Now one thing I have been trying to get Ozell to see is that not all his ideas are flawed, but rather the flaw is in his chosen wording and what those words mean. Instead of talking about what these things mean, he insistes he is right and everyone else is wrong but has no understanding of the words he presents. Anyway, Ozell isn't the point here, so back to the point. The idea of unconditional love is more than evidenced in scripture. The word may not, but the idea is without doubt. without doubt, but we can't do that by teaching false doctrine, in fact, it is only in teaching truth that they even have a chance at restoration. So if you really believe this, then explain to me the truth here. Unconditional love as has been well documented and described, means that God loves everyone enough to offer them salvation. Salvation is conditional. What part of that, encourages someone to think that they don't have to do anything to be saved?

Let's get even more specific as has been repeatedly done on this thread. Scripture tells us that God loves everyone even when they were enemies of God. So God offers to all men, out of that great love, salvation. But salvation is a conditional thing and requires us to both repent and to obey the commands of God. If we do this, if we repent of our sin and obey God's commands, we dwell in His love and His love dwells in us. This salvation is a demonstration of the unconditional love of God, a love that judges us, provides for us, corrects us, is just towards us, but a love that does not vanish every time we make a mistake.

Now take what is said above of God's unconditional love and show me how someone listening to what is being said (key word listening) can twist that to mean that I don't have to do anything to go to heaven because there are no consequences to sin....in fact, the consequences of sin were also discussed in depth as they relate to living in God's unconditional love vs. living in a conditional love.

Point being, we can't change scripture to try to correct misuses of idea and concepts that have invaded our churches. Scripture is truth and to teach something that is contrary to it is false teaching which is a very nasty thing according to scripture.

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Good post. I believe we agree that the statement, "God's love is conditional." is a sin that pays dearly in death. Readers of this thread need to be reminded if this, because it reflects a failure to rightly divide the word, "Love."