Jesus Christ died for the elect

FreeGrace2 said:

Of course not. What would be absurd. Jesus, being God, is omniscient, has always known who will believe. I don't know why Calvinists continue to ask that question.

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Those that Jesus died for ARE saved because God drew the elects and gave them to Jesus. Think about that.

Anyone God DREW will be saved.

How else is God going to keep His promises to those that don't know what to do?

God chooses first and then man chooses afterwards. If chooses that man, he will be save. If God didn't chose the other man he isn't saved cause God never drew him and he was never given to Jesus. Jesus didn't die for that other unsaved man. If Jesus died for him then he will be saved.

RisingSpirit said:

1. Please consider that it is God who:
   1. - draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65).
   2. - creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10).
   3. - appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48).
   4. - works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29).
   5. - chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4).
   6. - chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14).
   7. - grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29).
   8. - grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26).
   9. - calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9).
   10. - causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3).
   11. - predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30).
   12. - predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5).
   13. - predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11).
   14. - makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).

1. It is man who:
   1. - is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9).
   2. - is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
   3. - loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).
   4. - is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12).
   5. - is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6).
   6. - is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).
   7. - is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).
   8. - cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
   9. - is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

With these quote, you have to know what the Christians have been saying to you all along. The proof is provided here and you need not to reply. We really don't have time for arminian theologies.

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Yes, I've heard what the Calvinists have been saying, and neither they nor you have provided any support for the idea that Christ died ONLY or JUST for the elect. In fact, Scripture is crystal clear who He died for; everyone.

Also, I don't "have time" for Arminian theologies either, since I'm not one of them. But I do know that Calvinists think that anyone who disagrees with them are Arminians. But there are many who disagree with Calvinists AND Arminians.

RisingSpirit said:

The only difference we all see is YOUR position. It doesn't count. Please go back one step and pray on the verses we provided for you.

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So, who's "counting"? LOL

And instead of this kind of retort, why not rather provide something of a refutation, if you can.

If you really believe that God controls everything that occurs, you have a huge problem with sin. You put all of it on Him. That is unbiblical.

Man cannot be responsible for the sins that God determines/causes/etc, as your theology presents. But man is certainly responsible and accountable for the sins that he commits.

And regarding the "praying"over verses, I have a list that you could start with:
1 Jn 2:2
Heb 2:9
1 Tim 4:14
1 Jn 4:10
1 Tim 2:4
Luke 22:19-21
Jn 1:29
Jn 4:42

When you have prayed over these verses, I can give you more.

RisingSpirit said:

Those that Jesus died for ARE saved because God drew the elects and gave them to Jesus. Think about that.

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I have thought about that, and you are wrong. The Bible is clearly plain; Jesus died for everyone, therefore, impossible that all for whom Christ died are saved.

We know from Scripture that one is saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. So, you misunderstand the purpose of His death altogether.

Anyone God DREW will be saved.

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They still have to believe before they are saved.

How else is God going to keep His promises to those that don't know what to do?
What does this mean? It is not clear.

God keeps His promise to anyone who believes. That means He saves all who believe. That's how He keeps His promise.

God chooses first and then man chooses afterwards.

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Do you have a verse that clearly teaches this?

If chooses that man, he will be save.

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Basically, you are saying that God chooses who will believe, which cannot be found anywhere in Scripture.

In fact, God does choose who will be saved; he chooses to save those who believe. 2 Thess 2:13

If God didn't chose the other man he isn't saved cause God never drew him and he was never given to Jesus. Jesus didn't die for that other unsaved man. If Jesus died for him then he will be saved.

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Opinions don't count. What Scriptures say any of this?

I'll give you a hint: none do.

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FreeGrace2 said:

...Do you have a verse that clearly teaches this? ...

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Dear ms some and miss few,


[SIZE=+1]"there is no one who
understands, no one
who seeks God"
(Romans 3:11 NIV)

Not "some", or a "few", or, even a "whole lot" ! God's infallible Word
says "no one" ! (NIV, ESV, NCV, ESV, NRS: "no one"; NASB: "none".)

When the Lord looked into the future to see whom would choose Him
...He saw NOBODY ![/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]The principle here: We use one doctrine to
establish another doctrine. In this instance
Total Depravity to prove Predestinate Election.

Since none seek God, and no one understands
the Gospel anyway (Romans 3:11), we have a
situation [Total Depravity] where preaching
-by itself- can't convert people.

This why Predestinate Election is necessary.
The Lord regenerates those He has elected
unto salvation by softening their hearts so
they do seek the Gospel, and do understand
it when they hear it.

Preaching to the unregenerate does NOTHING
to convert them. At best you'll get a temporary
and false profession of Christ !


Preaching to the non-Elect only deepens their
condemnation (Luke 12:47-48).

Hearing the Gospel is life to the regenerate Elect
(2 Timothy 1:10). But to unregenerate it just
serves to further condemn them !

In both cases preaching advances God's will.
( And thus NOT "in vain"). But, to the reprobate,
it's a bad thing for them. Better they died
having never heard it.

We tend to think of the Gospel only being beneficial.
Because -for us- it is. For the reprobate (those not
predestined to life), however, the Gospel is an
instrument of the Lord's wrath ![/SIZE]

RisingSpirit said:

Dear ms some and miss few,

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Would this be an example of how to be snarky?

"there is no one who
understands, no one
who seeks God"
(Romans 3:11 NIV)

Not "some", or a "few", or, even a "whole lot" ! God's infallible Word
says "no one" ! (NIV, ESV, NCV, ESV, NRS: "no one"; NASB: "none".)

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Are you aware of where in the OT Paul was quoting from? It appears that you think Rom 3:10 describes everyone in the human race.

Rom 3:10-12
as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.”

Please note the beginning: "as it is written". This means Paul was quoting from the OT. And specifically, from Psa 14:1-3. And what is the subject of that passage? Here it is:
1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

So, we see that the passage is about the "fool", or more specifically, the atheist, who says, "there is no God". It is the fool who Paul had in mind in Rom 3:10-12, not the entire human race, as you suppose.

If you want to know what Paul did say about the entire human race, you would have to back up 1 verse, to v.9
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin

Yes, all human beings are "under sin". But Paul didn't say or imply that no one in the human race seeks God.

If that were true, then God as Creator sure didn't do a very good job. In fact, He did a very lousy job if that were true. Why? Because of Acts 17:26-27
26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.

So, the Bible SAYS that God created mankind to seek Him, plain and clear. So if no one seeks Him, He failed miserably in His creation. I don't think He did fail, even though many apparently believe that.

When the Lord looked into the future to see whom would choose Him
...He saw NOBODY !

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Here is another erroneous statement. Why would God have to "look into the future to see...anything"?? Don't you know that God is omniscient, and has always known everything.

If God has to "look into the future" to "see anything", then that means that God is learning. Do you really believe that God can learn? If you do, you deny His omniscience.

Because He is omniscient, He cannot learn. For He has always known everything.

Open theism is false.

RisingSpirit said:

The principle here: We use one doctrine to establish another doctrine.

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You may do as you wish. But I establish doctrine ONLY by what the Word of God proclaims.

In this instance
Total Depravity to prove Predestinate Election.

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Your understanding of "total depravity" is in error, if you are a Calvinist. When Adam sinned, what died immediately was his human spirit, by which one must have in order to worship God because Jesus said so in Jn 4:24
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

These are Jesus' words, not my opinion. That is why God REgenerates believers, in order for them to be able to worship God in the sphere of truth.

This why Predestinate Election is necessary.
The Lord regenerates those He has elected
unto salvation by softening their hearts so
they do seek the Gospel, and do understand
it when they hear it.

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Your problem is that you cannot find any Scripture that SAYS what you claim here.

Preaching to the unregenerate does NOTHING
to convert them. At best you'll get a temporary
and false profession of Christ !

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This isn't true at all. The order of how one is saved is clearly presented by Paul in Rom 10:13-15
13for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”

Here's the order:
#1 preachers must be sent to preach
#2 people must hear the preacher preach the gospel
#3 people believe what they hear

Preaching to the non-Elect only deepens their
condemnation.

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Actually, Jesus said to preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE.

That means the gospel is FOR everyone.

John Bunyan, writer of Pilgrims progress wrote this tract on reprobation and election.

Good reading.
http://www.chapellibrary.org/johnbunyan/text/bun-reprobate.pdf

"For the transgressions of My people He was stricken."
and
"And He bore the sin of many"
and
"But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;"


Isaiah 53

1 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they[a] made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

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"All we like sheep have gone astray"

Peter talks about this to the dear beloved friends, His chosen people and says

21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:

22 “Who committed no sin,
Nor was deceit found in His mouth”;
23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously;

24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

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This part of 'sheep going astray' is addressed to His chosen people, not the
entire world, not all people.

Jesus says it also here in John 10 about His sheep and also note about what Jesus says about those who are NOT HIS SHEEP.

22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Renewed Efforts to Stone Jesus

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

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If your not one of His sheep, then you never will be saved. In truth, a goat or a wolf never transforms into a sheep.

FreeGrace2 said:

You may do as you wish. But I establish doctrine ONLY by what the Word of God proclaims. ....

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You talk like a Calvinist.

What you said is almost identical to traditional Calvinism. I don't think you know what you're debating about. You do sound less arminianism, thank God ! I don't think you know the differences while you say the same thing as a Calvinist would.

Find the differences between FreeGrace's Calvinism and FreeGrace's anti-Calvinism.

Can you find them ?

FreeGrace2 said:

...Actually, Jesus said to preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE.

That means the gospel is FOR everyone.

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God tells us to preach. That is why we preach. We are being obedient to the Lord in proclaiming the gospel. Also, God uses the preaching of the gospel to bring his elect into the church. Furthermore, God works all things after the counsel of his will (Ephesians 1:11). This means that he works even our preaching and teaching concerning the person of Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the cross, in order to bring his people to faith. We do not know the means by which God chooses his people. From all eternity God has known whatsoever shall come to pass because he is redeemed it to be so. But this does not mean that we are robots. Christians, who were set free from the bonds of sin, have an influence with God in prayer (James 5:16). Though this is a paradox, we are able to influence God who from all eternity knows whatsoever shall come to pass. I like to say that God ordains that we influence by her prayers. Therefore, we should pray that God will save people and that he would use us in the preaching and teaching of his word. Furthermore, Isaiah 55:11 says that the word of God will not come back empty without accomplishing what God desires. Romans 1:16 says that the gospel is the power of God to salvation. So, we need to preach the word of God and proclaim the gospel. Both of these truths about the power of the preaching means that there is something in the preaching of the word of God that has the ability to change people. Therefore, we are to preach and teach the gospel much as we can because it is the power of the word of God that has effect on people.

RisingSpirit said:

You talk like a Calvinist.

What you said is almost identical to traditional Calvinism.

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In fact, Calvinism does have some things right. But I don't "talk like a Calvinist". My views come from Scripture. I know that Calvinists think the same thing, but I disagree with them about that.

I don't think you know what you're debating about. You do sound less arminianism, thank God !

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Your statement only demonstrates your lack of understanding of my view, and shows that you don't know nearly enough about me or my views to say such things.

And, correct, I am not Arminian. I have as much in opposition to them as I do to Calvinists. Just in different areas, though.

I don't think you know the differences while you say the same thing as a Calvinist would.

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You are free to claim whatever you want to claim. But your opinion proves nothing.

Find the differences between FreeGrace's Calvinism and FreeGrace's anti-Calvinism.

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Since I'm not a Calvinist, your question is bogus.

RisingSpirit said:

God tells us to preach. That is why we preach.

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No, He told us to preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE. That is far different that just to preach. And you have failed to explain why TO everyone if the gospel isn't FOR everyone.

We are being obedient to the Lord in proclaiming the gospel. Also, God uses the preaching of the gospel to bring his elect into the church.

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What verse teaches that?

Furthermore, God works all things after the counsel of his will (Ephesians 1:11). This means that he works even our preaching and teaching concerning the person of Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the cross, in order to bring his people to faith.

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This is no explanation of WHY the gospel is to be preached TO everyone if it isn't FOR everyone.

We do not know the means by which God chooses his people.

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Not true. We know exactly the means by which God chooses His people for salvation.

1 Cor 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. This is clearly a choice of His; to save those who believe.

2 Thess 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth

From all eternity God has known whatsoever shall come to pass because he is redeemed it to be so.

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I think this must be a typo, because the word "redeemed" doesn't fit. Did you mean to say that He determined everything that comes to pass? If so, do you mean that in a causative way? Because if you do, then you simply deny the meaning of omniscience. If God had to determine what comes to pass, that is merely a sovereign decision and has nothing to do with omniscience.

But this does not mean that we are robots.

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OK, you claim it. Now, prove it. By your theology, God determines all that occurs. Same with a puppeteer. By pulling the strings, the puppets do exactly as the puppeteer "determines". So show me any meaningful difference between your theology and puppetry.

Christians, who were set free from the bonds of sin, have an influence with God in prayer (James 5:16). Though this is a paradox, we are able to influence God who from all eternity knows whatsoever shall come to pass.

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There are NO paradoxes or tensions in Scripture. The Bible is completely in harmony. Those who claim paradoxes or tensions do not understand at least one side of the so-called paradox/tension. That's all.

I like to say that God ordains that we influence by her prayers. Therefore, we should pray that God will save people and that he would use us in the preaching and teaching of his word.

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So, you view seems to be that God "determined" what you pray, because He already "determined" the outcome?

Furthermore, Isaiah 55:11 says that the word of God will not come back empty without accomplishing what God desires.

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Which does not mean that everyone you pray for will be saved. It does mean that when the gospel goes out, no one has any excuse for rejecting it.

Romans 1:16 says that the gospel is the power of God to salvation.

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Yet, Calvinistic theology SAYS that God elects to salvation, even from before the foundation of the world. It appears that your theology contains a paradox.

So, we need to preach the word of God and proclaim the gospel.

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Sure, but you still haven't explained WHY to those who your theology claims doesn't need it because they weren't "chosen before the foundation". I would appreciate if you would at least try to.

Both of these truths about the power of the preaching means that there is something in the preaching of the word of God that has the ability to change people.

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Actually, there is nothing in any of us that changes people. The gospel is what changes people, when they believe it.

Therefore, we are to preach and teach the gospel much as we can because it is the power of the word of God that has effect on people.

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So, please explain WHY we are to preach TO every creature if the gospel isn't FOR every creature. You know, those so-called "non-elect" types.

God doesn't merely look into the future, he sees everything instantly/simultaneously. Foreknowledge is more than knowing in advance it means pre planning.

FreeGrace2 said:

No, He told us to preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE. That is far different that just to preach. And you have failed to explain why TO everyone if the gospel isn't FOR everyone.


What verse teaches that?

So, please explain WHY we are to preach TO every creature if the gospel isn't FOR every creature. You know, those so-called "non-elect" types.

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Ephesians 3

Purpose of the Mystery

8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;

10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,

11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,

12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.

13 Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

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God's wisdom made known by the church to the principalities and powers in heavenly places, that includes fallen angelic rulers and demons. Demons do possess and afflict, oppress people

sdowney717 said:

Ephesians 3

God's wisdom made known by the church to the principalities and powers in heavenly places, that includes fallen angelic rulers and demons. Demons do possess and afflict, oppress people

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The word possession is never used, its demonized as I was taught. The demons can't own anyone they can control from within.

intojoy said:

The word possession is never used, its demonized as I was taught. The demons can't own anyone they can control from within.

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Eh? Too many movies? or this maybe
Although I understand what your saying, do you think these scriptures are using the wrong words?
KJ
Matthew 4:24

- And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

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NKJV

23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people. 24 Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them. 25 Great multitudes followed Him—from Galilee, and from Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.

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NIV

23 Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. 24 News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed; and he healed them.

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ALLorNOTHINGatall4CHRIST said:

He died for everyone who choose to accept it for themselves.

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Yes Amen; Christ purchased our freedom; redeeming us from the curse;
doom; of the Law; and its condemnation by Himself; becoming a curse for us; for it is written in the Scriptures; Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree; or is crucified; To the end that through their receiving Christ Jesus; the blessing promised to Abraham; might come upon the Gentiles; so that we through faith; might all receive the realization of; the promise of the Holy Spirit. Respectfully; Parsonsmom.

FreeGrace2 said:

.... So, please explain WHY we are to preach TO every creature if the gospel isn't FOR every creature. You know, those so-called types..

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The reformed do agree the Elects are effected by the Gospel preaching even though they were already saved. Most people, here, don't know Traditional Calvinism and most know the other type of fringe Calvinism thats wrong in itself, that gets everyone in trouble here. I see a lot of blends in what you're saying.
I've noticed some confusion in the SBC and Calvinism is the new racism in SBC (found here ) Nearly equal numbers of pastors in the Southern Baptist Convention consider their churches as Calvinist/Reformed as do Arminian/Wesleyan, although more than 60 percent are concerned about the effect of Calvinism on the denomination, according to a new survey from LifeWay Research. (found here and more here ) I've noticed that there are so much Calvinism bashing that got out of hand I I believe the Baptist are trying to patch that up by telling others that the reformed do have it right in many ways. I don't think the non denominationals can claim they're not Calvinist, arminians nor Romanist or in betweens. I believe we can't claim all those things in the 21st century. Too many blends of interpretations of what the Scripture say at this point. CF are full of disagreed debates. I believe non denominational is a denomination.

Anyway, CF'ers, what are the SBC saying? They want Calvinism back?

I didn't realise it's almost a split tie or 50%-50%

intojoy said:

God doesn't merely look into the future, he sees everything instantly/simultaneously. Foreknowledge is more than knowing in advance it means pre planning.

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We must follow the snapshot of God's mind.