It's so confusing....

AnneSally · Oct 20, 2008

Ok, so I'm an English girl living in New Zealand trying to figure out what a "conservative" and "liberal" means in America-land. It's so far from what I understand as left-wing and right-wing that everytime you people in here discuss the evils of the other side I don't even have a clue who you're talking about.

So, care to explain to me what your labels mean? LOL, sorry to ask but NorrinRadd already understands that I have an aversion to labels (both religious and political) and can never remember what they mean.

I found this blurb that some British Joe Bloggs wrote and it pretty much sums up how I feel....

"Probably the most truthful answer is that they're both terms of abuse and no longer mean anything. Certainly for an observer from outside the USA, it's extremely hard to tell the difference and frankly they both seem to mean the same thing and to be a lot more right wing and authoritarian than conservatives and liberals in the UK.

It's really time we got away from describing politics as if they lie on a single line. There's the traditional left-right split which is roughly communal to individual or Socialist to Capitalist. But there's also an orthogonal line for Authoritarian to Libertarian. And another line orthogonal to both for Idealism to Pragmatism. Some aspects of the world at the moment seem like a battle between Right Wing Authoritarians and Left Wing Libertarians. But even after saying that, in US political terms, Conservative and Liberal look like labels for Pragmatic Right-Wing Authoritarians vs Slightly more Idealistic, Slightly less Right-Wing Authoritarians that are virtually indistinguishable.

Note here that extreme Right-Wing Authoritarians are also extremely dangerous. Not only are they working for themselves but they want to tell you what to do purely to gain advantage for themselves. Trying to show them that there is self interest in a system of ethics that promotes society over the individual is probably hopeless which leaves them with no obvious source of moral limitation."

What he said in the first paragraph about the terms "conservative" and "liberal" no longer meaning anything other than terms of abuse is exactly how I view it, because whenever I hear anything attached to either it's usually in a derogatory way and ends up being meaningless.

What does Conservative mean to you? Not only ideologically but practically as well. I understand what Socialist and Capitalist means, but these terms that Americans use all the time "conservative" and "liberal" are ceasing to mean anything to me other than "the other one (whichever one it is) is eeeveellll"....

So, what say you?

BereanTodd · Oct 20, 2008

Conservative and Liberal have different meanings when you are discussing Christianity and politics. The term for this area of the message board, as I understand it, relates to conservative in a Christian sense.

Politically in America our right wing would be slightly right from a European standard. They stand for less government, lower taxes, pro business, strong millitary, strong justice, pro-life (anti-abortion), strong borders, etc, etc.

Our "left wing" or democrats would be mostly centrists from a European viewpoint, with some of them (Barak Obama included) being a little left of center (again from a European viewpoint). They tend to be big government - and in the farthest left even strait socialist (though they would never claim this as it would be political suicide here); bigger taxes, especially on business, more government programs, pro-choice/pro-abortion, pro-gay rights, etc, etc, etc.

Now any conservative American who does not understand global political ideas would probably come in here and yell "Democrats are not centrists, they are far left weirdos" but they would do so in ignorance of global standards of the political spectrum.

NOW religiously though it is a whole different thing. Liberal churches put much less trust in the Bible, are more open to criticisms of it, are more open to homosexuality, are more permissive in their teachings. Conservative churches stand on the infalability and inerrancy of Scripture, and it's usefulness and importance to our daily lives.

Henaynei · Oct 20, 2008

what he said ^, and said well

it can be especially confusing because those who are doctrinally liberal tend to also be politically liberal and those doctrinally conservative tend to be politically conservative..... and in this forum it can be challenging to discern whether it is someones political or doctrinal stance under discussion

desmalia · Oct 20, 2008

BereanTodd said:
Conservative and Liberal have different meanings when you are discussing Christianity and politics. The term for this area of the message board, as I understand it, relates to conservative in a Christian sense.

Politically in America our right wing would be slightly right from a European standard. They stand for less government, lower taxes, pro business, strong millitary, strong justice, pro-life (anti-abortion), strong borders, etc, etc.

Our "left wing" or democrats would be mostly centrists from a European viewpoint, with some of them (Barak Obama included) being a little left of center (again from a European viewpoint). They tend to be big government - and in the farthest left even strait socialist (though they would never claim this as it would be political suicide here); bigger taxes, especially on business, more government programs, pro-choice/pro-abortion, pro-gay rights, etc, etc, etc.

Now any conservative American who does not understand global political ideas would probably come in here and yell "Democrats are not centrists, they are far left weirdos" but they would do so in ignorance of global standards of the political spectrum.

NOW religiously though it is a whole different thing. Liberal churches put much less trust in the Bible, are more open to criticisms of it, are more open to homosexuality, are more permissive in their teachings. Conservative churches stand on the infalability and inerrancy of Scripture, and it's usefulness and importance to our daily lives.

Hi Todd, nice to see you here!
Yes, I agree, that's a good breakdown of the differences.

GreenMunchkin · Oct 20, 2008

Hiya, Sally We don't have the politics/religion connection here, no. Tbh, I always thought the closer you adhere to scriptures, the more Christ-like you become, because it means we trust Him, and have that faith, and allow Him to re-shape us into who we are supposed to be. Haven't we all experienced that feeling of peace you get when you're feeing angry or hurt, and you start reading? The Holy Spirit reaches us through it, and teaches us through it and we're told about our Saviour through it. Why would we want to distance ourselves from it?

Have honestly noticed that the deconversion rate is exponentially higher amongst liberal Christians. That's not to say there aren't also liberal Christians who are close to the Lord, but demographically speaking, that's something I've noticed, and it really does make me think that there's great spiritual strength in following the Bible, and that's what conservative means to me.

That being said, have seen much cruelty amongst conservative Christians (I include myself in that), so strictly adhering to Scriptures doesn't always make us loving. I think it shows us that the Lord will judge us according to our faith, and how we loved, as opposed to what label we subscribe to, or have thrust upon us.

I care little for politics so am not gonna comment on that one, at all.

Many hugs, sis

WalksWithChrist · Oct 20, 2008

The liberal/conservative labels get stretched way out of proportion a lot.
Especially lately.

Rhamiel · Oct 20, 2008

I would call Bush almost "liberal" he is big on government spending, he wanted to bring about quick change, he is a big supporter of governmtent taking a more active role (patriot act) that might limet personal freedoms. He has blurred the lines between the two

WalksWithChrist · Oct 20, 2008

Rhamiel said:
I would call Bush almost "liberal" he is big on government spending, he wanted to bring about quick change, he is a big supporter of governmtent taking a more active role (patriot act) that might limet personal freedoms. He has blurred the lines between the two

Case in point!

AnneSally · Oct 20, 2008

BereanTodd said:
Conservative and Liberal have different meanings when you are discussing Christianity and politics. The term for this area of the message board, as I understand it, relates to conservative in a Christian sense.

Politically in America our right wing would be slightly right from a European standard. They stand for less government, lower taxes, pro business, strong millitary, strong justice, pro-life (anti-abortion), strong borders, etc, etc.

Our "left wing" or democrats would be mostly centrists from a European viewpoint, with some of them (Barak Obama included) being a little left of center (again from a European viewpoint). They tend to be big government - and in the farthest left even strait socialist (though they would never claim this as it would be political suicide here); bigger taxes, especially on business, more government programs, pro-choice/pro-abortion, pro-gay rights, etc, etc, etc.

Now any conservative American who does not understand global political ideas would probably come in here and yell "Democrats are not centrists, they are far left weirdos" but they would do so in ignorance of global standards of the political spectrum.

NOW religiously though it is a whole different thing. Liberal churches put much less trust in the Bible, are more open to criticisms of it, are more open to homosexuality, are more permissive in their teachings. Conservative churches stand on the infalability and inerrancy of Scripture, and it's usefulness and importance to our daily lives.

Wow, this is great, thanks for the synopsis. I'm not a political conservative and yet I don't entirely agree with liberal politics either. I'm kinda stuck out in the cold when it comes to American politics because I don't agree with certain thngs on either side. And yeah, America is definitely more right-wing than I'm used to and I doubt very much that Democrats are as left-wing according to global standards, I once heard that they are more to the right than our right-wing.

You said that in this forum that conservative applies in a Christian sense but I thought it meant political because many in here are Republicans and from reading the posts I find a lot of them filter Christianity through a political lens. I was starting to think this forum was a venue for politics not Christianity or maybe even a politicised form of Christianity which I find dsconcerting.

What you have described as a conservative Christian is what I believe but when it comes to human politics I wouldn't be Republican so I find the whole American preoccupation of merging politics and religion weird.....

BereanTodd · Oct 20, 2008

In actuality the vast majority of Democrats and Republicans have very little that separates them. Now if you compare some of the furthest right (just for the sake of making the point lets say Michael Savage - not a politician but a commentator) and the farthest left (the Pelosi's and Obama's) then you will find some differentiation.

But by and large there is very little that distinguishes the majority of dem's and republicans in this country. When it comes down to it they are all spending money but there are really only a handful of issues that come between them - abortion, views on the war ... not much else.

From the perspective of worldwide politics 90% of our legislators are really just plain, vanilla centrists with very little variation to the right or left.

AnneSally · Oct 20, 2008

WalksWithChrist said:
The liberal/conservative labels get stretched way out of proportion a lot.
Especially lately.

I agree, that's why I posted this thread because I'm having difficulty distinguishing them.....

AnneSally · Oct 20, 2008

BereanTodd said:
In actuality the vast majority of Democrats and Republicans have very little that separates them. Now if you compare some of the furthest right (just for the sake of making the point lets say Michael Savage - not a politician but a commentator) and the farthest left (the Pelosi's and Obama's) then you will find some differentiation.

But by and large there is very little that distinguishes the majority of dem's and republicans in this country. When it comes down to it they are all spending money but there are really only a handful of issues that come between them - abortion, views on the war ... not much else.

From the perspective of worldwide politics 90% of our legislators are really just plain, vanilla centrists with very little variation to the right or left.

This is really interesting, thanks very much for explaining this stuff to me. I did get a sense that Obama was farther to the left than normal, he seems a bit too far left to me, especially when it comes to foreign policy, just downright dangerous....

BereanTodd · Oct 20, 2008

AnneSally said:
You said that in this forum that conservative applies in a Christian sense but I thought it meant political because many in here are Republicans and from reading the posts I find a lot of them filter Christianity through a political lense. I was starting to think this forum was a venue for politics not Christianity.

What you have described as a conservative Christian is what I believe but when it comes to human politics I wouldn't be Republican so I find the whole American preoccupation of merging politics and religion weird.....

Yeah, well there is a tendency for conservative white Christians to be Republican and liberal Christians to lean be Democratic. However that is not always the case (and when other ethnicities come in it is thrown out the door).

I personally was a Republican for many years, but now I am really without a party. I would call myself a socialist, or at least very close to one, and there are other issues I side with the Democrats on. I have become a pacifist as well. And yet, I believe we should close our borders, strongly support Israel and an millitantly pro-life. In the end I vote on the last two issues alone, so until we get a viable third party I vote Republican by default ... but I actually have a strong dislike for both parties.

Religiously I stand very strongly on the inerrant, infalable Word of God, and although I'm no legalist at all I am a very conservative theologian.

AnneSally · Oct 20, 2008

Henaynei said:
it can be especially confusing because those who are doctrinally liberal tend to also be politically liberal and those doctrinally conservative tend to be politically conservative..... and in this forum it can be challenging to discern whether it is someones political or doctrinal stance under discussion

I agree, because I would be doctrinally conservative but not necessarily politically, or at least in some sense but not entirely. But doctrinally, most definitely. I do tend to view human politics and Christianity as separate. Politics, as I understand it, is for secular rule, I don't see it as a spiritual authority in that sense...

AnneSally · Oct 20, 2008

BereanTodd said:
Yeah, well there is a tendency for conservative white Christians to be Republican and liberal Christians to lean be Democratic. However that is not always the case (and when other ethnicities come in it is thrown out the door).

I personally was a Republican for many years, but now I am really without a party. I would call myself a socialist, or at least very close to one, and there are other issues I side with the Democrats on. I have become a pacifist as well. And yet, I believe we should close our borders, strongly support Israel and an millitantly pro-life. In the end I vote on the last two issues alone, so until we get a viable third party I vote Republican by default ... but I actually have a strong dislike for both parties.

Religiously I stand very strongly on the inerrant, infalable Word of God, and although I'm no legalist at all I am a very conservative theologian.

I feel like you my dear. I'm definitely not a liberal Christian, not a legalist, but am conservative theologically speaking and I see that as mainstream Christianity.

I understand what you're saying about your political beliefs up above and that it causes you some conflict, because mine aren't clear-cut into left and right either and there isn't a political party that represents my political beliefs perfectly so I kinda feel like I have no party either. But when any election's always a two-horsed race, it's kinda difficult to pick one but I doubt I could vote Republican, I would probably vote Democrat by default and yet I'm anti-abortion, pro-Israel and for tighter immigration regulations. Groan.

AnneSally · Oct 20, 2008

GreenMunchkin said:
Hiya, Sally We don't have the politics/religion connection here, no. Tbh, I always thought the closer you adhere to scriptures, the more Christ-like you become, because it means we trust Him, and have that faith, and allow Him to re-shape us into who we are supposed to be. Haven't we all experienced that feeling of peace you get when you're feeing angry or hurt, and you start reading? The Holy Spirit reaches us through it, and teaches us through it and we're told about our Saviour through it. Why would we want to distance ourselves from it?

Have honestly noticed that the deconversion rate is exponentially higher amongst liberal Christians. That's not to say there aren't also liberal Christians who are close to the Lord, but demographically speaking, that's something I've noticed, and it really does make me think that there's great spiritual strength in following the Bible, and that's what conservative means to me.

That being said, have seen much cruelty amongst conservative Christians (I include myself in that), so strictly adhering to Scriptures doesn't always make us loving. I think it shows us that the Lord will judge us according to our faith, and how we loved, as opposed to what label we subscribe to, or have thrust upon us.

I care little for politics so am not gonna comment on that one, at all.

Many hugs, sis

Awww...hugs to you too sis, thanks for your honest comments.

Albion · Oct 20, 2008

I found the British Joe Bloggs' overview to be little more than a mess. I'd say, first off, to let all that introspection and pseudo-philosophy go.

No one in American politics is advocating authoritarianism.

Conservatism, in Europe or Oceania or America, stands for traditional values, religion, and country. BUT here's the rub as far as understanding this in European terms. In Europe, UK included, there was an established church, a monarch and a strong class system. The United States, by its revolution in the 18th century, broke with all that in favor of merit, which meant individual freedom. There are, therefore, no American Conservatives in the old sense. But we do still advocate traditional values, limited government and personal freedom--all carry-overs from historic (Burkean)Conservatism.

Liberal Americans once agreed but, as elsewhere, the advent of Socialism squeezed historic Liberalism out and converted the base of Liberals to a watered-down Socialism which, while not Marxist, does advocate internationalism, redistribution of the wealth, and/or a downplaying of religion.

In other words, I do sympathize with your saying that our labels may be confusing, especially if you have historic labels in mind, European concepts, that is.

Our Conservatives are a blend of historic Conservatism and Classical Liberalism (Capitalism) because that is the heritage of our country. And our Liberals are Social Welfarists, having absorbed that from Socialism, but without yet wanting to own all the means of producing wealth in order to redistribute the wealth.

From what I can see, the current Presidential campaign has demonstrated all this perfectly!

AnneSally · Oct 20, 2008

Rhamiel said:
I would call Bush almost "liberal" he is big on government spending, he wanted to bring about quick change, he is a big supporter of governmtent taking a more active role (patriot act) that might limet personal freedoms. He has blurred the lines between the two

That's what I've heard about him too, but then I've heard that about Tony Blair only the other way round, that he took many conservative platforms, stuff from the far right and stuff from the far left and blurred it. It seems in this day and age these leaders are not advocating their political ideologies but furthering their own agendas which are a mish-mash of anything goes, left and right don't seem to mean much in reality anymore.....at least not in the last 8 to 10 years anyway.....

AnneSally · Oct 20, 2008

Albion said:
Conservatism, in Europe or Oceania or America, stands for traditional values, religion, and country. BUT here's the rub as far as understanding this in European terms. In Europe, UK included, there was an established church, a monarch and a strong class system. The United States, by its revolution in the 18th century, broke with all that in favor of merit, which meant individual freedom. There are, therefore, no American Conservatives in the old sense.

Yeah, see, that's why I find America's version of "conservative" difficult to understand, it's not what I regard as "conservative" in the true sense.

AnneSally · Oct 20, 2008

Albion said:
Liberal Americans once agreed but, as elsewhere, the advent of Socialism squeezed historic Liberalism out and converted the base of Liberals to a watered-down Socialism which, while not Marxist, does advocate internationalism, redistribution of the wealth, and/or a downplaying of religion.

Ahhh, I understand that, thanks for expalining.

Albion said:
In other words, I do sympathize with your saying that our labels may be confusing, especially if you have historic labels in mind, European concepts, that is.

Yes, well it's difficult for me not to intrepret that way as I am British. So when someone in here says "conservative" it brings to my mind something else than how Amercans understand it.

Albion said:
Our Conservatives are a blend of historic Conservatism and Classical Liberalism (Capitalism) because that is the heritage of our country. And our Liberals are Social Welfarists, having absorbed that from Socialism, but without yet wanting to own all the means of producing wealth in order to redistribute the wealth.

From what I can see, the current Presidential campaign has demonstrated all this perfectly!

How so? America is supposed to be a Capitalist nation and yet you've used the tax payer to bail out your capitalist financial system....weird in the extreme.....I just don't get that, and that came from a Republican government?

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