Israel's future and Pat: Your view

Jesus Is Real · Feb 10, 2006

KEPLER said:
Dear Mel,

Here is your college final: Parse the sentence quoted above.

You have 30 minutes. This is a closed book exam.

Good Luck!

now now..........must I now ask for an apology for talking behind my back?

Connie

Tishri1 · Feb 10, 2006

Hebrews 8:6

Jesus is the Mediator of a better covenant, which is established upon better promises. It was not established upon law changes but upon better promises. Some changes of terms were made, but the focus is on changes in the promises. Why were the promises changed? Being in context with "for if that first covenant had been faultless" and "finding fault with them," the changes had something to do with thefault, and the fault was with them. Them is a plural reference to the multitude of people who anciently made the Old Covenant with God.

John W. Ritenbaugh

Hebrews 8:7-8

There indeed was a fault: "finding fault with them." Them is a plural pronoun, so it cannot possibly refer to the singular noun covenant. It would have to have read "for finding fault with it." God's Word is telling usnot completely yetthat the fault was with a plural them.
John W. Ritenbaugh

Hebrews 8:8

Note the plural pronoun "them." To this time, there was only one covenant, so if he were referring to the covenant, he would have had to say, "for finding fault with it." But God did not find fault with the Old Covenant. Everything that God does is of the highest order, and the covenant He gave to Israel was more than adequate for His intention at the time. It was not the covenant that failed. It was themthe peoplewho failed. They did not live up to what the covenant stipulated.

Everything God does is pure, right, and true. People who say the law is done away and the Old Covenant was a failure imply that there was something wrong with what God gave the people to do. God does not do things like that! We cannot afford to allow that kind of thinking to get into our minds because it puts us on the trail to error and will not help us in our relationship with God. It will greatly affect the way we approach the Biblethe Word of God.

The Old Covenant is part of the Word of God, and Proverbs 30:5 says, "Every word of God is pure." Therefore, the problem was not with the covenant but was in the people. Specifically, the problem was in their hearts; they were uncircumcised, to use the Bible's term. Their hearts were filled with self-will and therefore rejected what God had to say.

John W. Ritenbaugh

KEPLER · Feb 10, 2006

jsisrl said:
now now..........must I now ask for an apology for talking behind my back?

OK. I apologize. I meant to talk in front of your back...

Jesus Is Real · Feb 10, 2006

Melethiel said:
What does the letter to the church at Pergamum have to do with Kepler? *gasp* Kepler, are you a closet Nicolaitan?

And I don't do parsing sentences. I'm in music, dammit. My final consists of playing Bach.

Ahhh,.........he was just acting somewhat of a stumbling block towards the Children of Israel,.....so I used that word.

But this was NOT the topic,....so anyway.

Connie

Jesus Is Real · Feb 10, 2006

KEPLER said:
OK. I apologize. I meant to talk in front of your back...

Your too funny...........how old are you KEPLER!!

Connie

Jesus Is Real · Feb 10, 2006

Tishri1 said:
Hebrews 8:6

Jesus is the Mediator of a better covenant, which is established upon better promises. It was not established upon law changes but
upon better promises. <--------OF COURSE,.....so this gets A HUGE 'BINGO'

Some changes of terms were made, but the focus is on changes in the promises. Why were the promises changed? Being in context with "for if that first covenant had been faultless" and "finding fault with them," the changes had something to do with thefault, and the fault was with them. Them is a plural reference to the multitude of people who
anciently made the Old Covenant with God.
<---OF COURSE,..so this gets A HUGE 'BINGO'

John W. Ritenbaugh

Hebrews 8:7-8

There indeed was a fault: "finding fault with them." Them is a plural pronoun, so it cannot possibly refer to the singular noun covenant. <--------OF COURSE NOT,.....so this gets A HUGE 'BINGO'

It would have to have read "for finding fault with it." God's Word is telling us—not completely yet—that the fault was with a plural them. <---OF COURSE,.....so this gets A HUGE 'BINGO'
John W. Ritenbaugh

Hebrews 8:8

Note the plural pronoun "them." To this time, there was only one covenant, so if he were referring to the covenant, he would have had to say, "for finding fault with it." But God did not find fault with the
Old Covenant. <--------TRUE,.....so this gets A HUGE 'BINGO'

Everything that God does is of the highest order, and the covenant He gave to Israel was more than adequate for His intention at the time. It was not the covenant that failed. It was them—the people—who failed. They did not live up to what the covenant stipulated.

Everything God does is pure, right, and true. <----OF COURSE,.....so this gets A HUGE 'BINGO'

People who say the law is done away and the Old Covenant was a failure imply that there was something wrong with what God gave the people to do. <--------OF COURSE THE LAW WASN'T....so this gets A HUGE 'BINGO'

God does not do things like that! We cannot afford to allow that kind of thinking to get into our minds because it puts us on the trail to error and will not help us in our relationship
with God. <---------BINGO

It will greatly affect the way we approach the Bible—the Word of God.

The Old Covenant is part of the Word of God, and Proverbs 30:5 says, "Every word of God is pure." <---------BINGO

Therefore, the problem was not with the covenant but was in the people. <----BINGO

Specifically, the problem was in their hearts; they were uncircumcised, to use the Bible's term. Their hearts were filled with self-will and therefore rejected what God had to say.
John W. Ritenbaugh

<---------BINGO

Opps no need for the arrows! Oh well.

Peace to you Tishri1,
Connie

Tishri1 · Feb 10, 2006

here is the whole article:http://bibletools.org//index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.show/CT/TRANSCRIPT/k/311

part of it says

But the notion in Protestantism is that since the Old Covenant is done away with, then God's law is also done away with. So, these people decisively deal with the Old Covenant and the law of God in one fell swoop. It's not true what they have done. It's not true what they have said. But it neatly gets it out of the way. And, as I mentioned earlier, there is an attitude that is shown in this.
The teaching, then, continues by exclaiming that one of the reasons why it had to be done away is that God's law is too difficult to keepthat it is harsh, that it is enslaving. And it leaves one with the definite impression that (since this is so, and God gave the law) the reason it didn't workthe fault, the flaw in the whole mixwas God. And human nature is agreeable to this because it is ever willing to shift the blame elsewhere in order to justify its conduct. But what says God's Word?

Hebrews 8:7-8 For if that first covenant had been faultless [Seems like there was a problem there.], then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, He says, "Behold, the days come, says the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."

Let's begin by affirming something that is a biblical truth; and that is that God's Word is truth (John 17:17); and it faithfully discloses, as we are going to see here, where the real problem lays. There indeed was a fault. He tells us here, in verse 8, "for finding fault with them." That is a plural pronoun. It cannot possibly be referring to the singular noun, covenant. In order for 'covenant' to be the antecedent of 'them' it would have to be plural. But the way it is, it would have to have read "for finding fault with it." God's Word is telling usnot completely yet, but nonetheless it is implying very stronglythat it was with a plural them.

Hebrews 8:6 But now has He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the Mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Verse 6 tells us, then, that Jesus is the Mediator of a better covenant, established upon better promises. It was not established upon law changesbut upon better promises. Some changes of terms were made; but the focus is not on law changes, but changes in promises. Now, why? Why were the promises changed? Being where that appearsin context with "for if that first covenant had been faultless" and "finding fault with them"the changes had something to do with the fault; and the fault was with them. So 'them' is a plural reference to the multitude of people who made the Old Covenant with God anciently.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh...

The context here in Romans 8 is somewhat different than the context in Hebrews 8, but the principle being dealt with is similar. Flesh in Romans 8:3 is a reference to people. The problem with the Old Covenant was not with its laws, but with one of the parties who made the covenantthe plural 'them.' That is, the people who made the covenant. The people would not keep the terms of the covenant!
This is confirmed by the Old Testament record, which shows that Israel never would keep the Old Covenant except for brief periods of time. That's why there are so many references back there in the Old Testament about them being stiff-necked, or about them being fornicators or committing adultery, or being filled with iniquity......

.....

KEPLER · Feb 10, 2006

Tishri1 said:
Hebrews 8:6

Jesus is the Mediator of a better covenant, which is established upon better promises. It was not established upon law changes but upon better promises. Some changes of terms were made, but the focus is on changes in the promises. Why were the promises changed? Being in context with "for if that first covenant had been faultless" and "finding fault with them," the changes had something to do with thefault, and the fault was with them. Them is a plural reference to the multitude of people who anciently made the Old Covenant with God.
John W. Ritenbaugh

Hebrews 8:7-8

There indeed was a fault: "finding fault with them." Them is a plural pronoun, so it cannot possibly refer to the singular noun covenant. It would have to have read "for finding fault with it." God's Word is telling us—not completely yet—that the fault was with a plural them.
John W. Ritenbaugh

Hebrews 8:8

Note the plural pronoun "them." To this time, there was only one covenant, so if he were referring to the covenant, he would have had to say, "for finding fault with it." But God did not find fault with the Old Covenant. Everything that God does is of the highest order, and the covenant He gave to Israel was more than adequate for His intention at the time. It was not the covenant that failed. It was them—the people—who failed. They did not live up to what the covenant stipulated.

Everything God does is pure, right, and true. People who say the law is done away and the Old Covenant was a failure imply that there was something wrong with what God gave the people to do. God does not do things like that! We cannot afford to allow that kind of thinking to get into our minds because it puts us on the trail to error and will not help us in our relationship with God. It will greatly affect the way we approach the Bible—the Word of God.

The Old Covenant is part of the Word of God, and Proverbs 30:5 says, "Every word of God is pure." Therefore, the problem was not with the covenant but was in the people. Specifically, the problem was in their hearts; they were uncircumcised, to use the Bible's term. Their hearts were filled with self-will and therefore rejected what God had to say.
John W. Ritenbaugh

EXCUSE ME....?

You're quoting a HERETIC to support your position?

John W. Ritenbaugh was a member of the Worldwide Church of God, a sect that until the mid-1990s denied the Trinity. He and his wife left the WCoG when the WCoG changed its doctrinal stance and accepted the Nicene formula of the Trinity, ca. 1995.

Proof from this website:

In January 1992, John and Evelyn resigned from the Worldwide Church of God (WCG) because they disagreed with the doctrinal changes and direction of the church. The Church of the Great God (CGG) began shortly thereafter when a small number of brethren, also in disagreement with WCG, asked the Ritenbaughs to pastor them. Since then, they have hardly had time to look back!

Pay particular attention to this page!

Tishri1, are you a Trinitarian?

Tishri1 · Feb 10, 2006

KEPLER said:
When we spiritualize, it often leads to spiritual lies...

Lo, I have spoken!

blah, blah, blah, blah, ginger, blah, blah, blah

agreed read the article silly

Jesus Is Real · Feb 10, 2006

Tishri1 said:
here is the whole article:http://bibletools.org//index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.show/CT/TRANSCRIPT/k/311

part of it says.....

http://bibletools.org//index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.show/CT/TRANSCRIPT/k/311

here is the whole article:http://bibletools.org//index.cfm/fus...ANSCRIPT/k/311

part of it says

Quote

But the notion in Protestantism is that since the Old Covenant is done away with, then God's law is also done away with. <-----NOPE,.......for it's good to Honor your Parents and the like still!!!

So, these people decisively deal with the Old Covenant and the law of God in one fell swoop. <---------IT WAS THE JUDGMENT OF THE LAW THAT WE ARE NOT UNDER ANYMORE BEING IN CHRIST AND KEEPING WITH REPENTANCE AND FORGIVENESS.

It's not true what they have done. <-------AMEN,...IT'S GOOD TO LOVE GOD AND LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR!!!

It's not true what they have said. But it neatly gets it out of the way. And, as I mentioned earlier, there is an attitude that is shown in this.
The teaching, then, continues by exclaiming that one of the reasons why it had to be done away is that God's law is too difficult to keep—that it is harsh, that it is enslaving. And it leaves one with the definite impression that (since this is so, and God gave the law) the reason it didn't work—the fault, the flaw in the whole mix—was God. And human nature is agreeable to this because it is ever willing to shift the blame elsewhere in order to justify its conduct. But what says God's Word?
Hebrews 8:7-8 For if that first covenant had been faultless [Seems like there was a problem there.], then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, He says, "Behold, the days come, says the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."

Let's begin by affirming something that is a biblical truth; and that is that God's Word is truth (John 17:17); and it faithfully discloses, as we are going to see here, where the real problem lays. There indeed was a fault. He tells us here, in verse 8, "for finding fault with them." That is a plural pronoun. It cannot possibly be referring to the singular noun, covenant. In order for 'covenant' to be the antecedent of 'them' it would have to be plural. But the way it is, it would have to have read "for finding fault with it." God's Word is telling us—not completely yet, but nonetheless it is implying very strongly—that it was with a plural them.
Hebrews 8:6 But now has He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the Mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Verse 6 tells us, then, that Jesus is the Mediator of a better covenant, established upon better promises. It was not established upon law changes—but upon better promises. Some changes of terms were made; but the focus is not on law changes, but changes in promises. Now, why? Why were the promises changed? Being where that appears—in context with "for if that first covenant had been faultless" and "finding fault with them"—the changes had something to do with the fault; and the fault was with them. So 'them' is a plural reference to the multitude of people who made the Old Covenant with God anciently.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh...

The context here in Romans 8 is somewhat different than the context in Hebrews 8, but the principle being dealt with is similar. Flesh in Romans 8:3 is a reference to people. The problem with the Old Covenant was not with its laws, but with one of the parties who made the covenant—the plural 'them.' That is, the people who made the covenant. The people would not keep the terms of the covenant! <--------YEAH WE LOVED SIN BETTER,...IT WAS GOOD TO US AND THEM FOR A SEASON,...IT'S GOOD TO BE SARCASTIC WHEN IT FED OUR FLESH,.....BUT IN CHRIST WE ARE CALLED TO PUT OUR DEEDS OF THE FLESH TO DEATH,.....THIS WAS WHAT NEEDED TO DIE AND BE DONE AWAY WITH---AND HOW WE THOUGHT WE COULD OBEY GOD IN OUR OWN STRENGTH WITHOUT CHRIST WORKING MERCY AND GRACE IN US.

This is confirmed by the Old Testament record, which shows that Israel never would keep the Old Covenant except for brief periods of time. That's why there are so many references back there in the Old Testament about them being stiff-necked, or about them being fornicators or committing adultery, or being filled with iniquity......

VERY GOOD!!!

Jesus Is Real · Feb 10, 2006

KEPLER said:
EXCUSE ME....?

You're quoting a HERETIC to support your position?

HAVE MERCY FOR ALL,....RIGHT KEPLER!!!?

I quoted Exodus,...am I one too since Moses didn't make it in the Promised Land? Nope,.......right.

GOTTCHA YA, GUY!!!

Connie

GraceInHim · Feb 10, 2006

jsisrl said:
Your too funny...........how old are you KEPLER!!

Connie

think he is around the same age as Mel.. LOL..

both nice people here.. Kepler has spunk on GT.. Mel, have to say for a girl her age, --> proud to see someone that involved with God..

have to work on my teens.. my son just emailed me a photo of his tatoo.. not too happy with that

Hi Connie & Tishri .. my beloved trinitarian sisters in the hood

Jesus Is Real · Feb 10, 2006

GraceInHim said:
think he is around the same age as Mel.. LOL..

both nice people here.. Kepler has spunk on GT.. Mel, have to say for a girl her age, --> proud to see someone that involved with God.. <--------------AMEN!!! I HONOR FOR THIS TOO!!!!

have to work on my teens.. my son just emailed me a photo of his tatoo.. not too happy with that

Hi Connie & Tishri .. my beloved trinitarian sisters in the hood

Hey GraceInHim

Tishri1 · Feb 10, 2006

KEPLER said:
Tishri1, are you a Trinitarian?

http://bibletools.org//index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/30099/eVerseID/30099/version/kjv/opt/comm/RTD/cgg

Forerunner Commentary ,
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown,
John Wesley's Notes ,
Matthew Henry ,
People's Commentary (NT) ,
Robertson's Word Pictures (NT) ,
Scofield,
The websight was one that had many commentaries and this one was among them...are all these people heritics as you say

and the answer is no to your question

Oblio · Feb 10, 2006

Tishri1 said:
and the answer is no to your question

Tishri1 · Feb 10, 2006

Oblio said:

well I honestly don't know what one is....I'm Messianic, and don't let Kepler say that Messianics are Heritics too actually He might just say that but it doesn't make it so

Oblio · Feb 10, 2006

Tishri1 said:
well I honestly don't know what one is .

Do you (or MJs in general) worship the Holy Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit ?

Tishri1 · Feb 10, 2006

GraceInHim said:
think he is around the same age as Mel.. LOL..

both nice people here.. Kepler has spunk on GT.. Mel, have to say for a girl her age, --> proud to see someone that involved with God..

have to work on my teens.. my son just emailed me a photo of his tatoo.. not too happy with that

Hi Connie & Tishri .. my beloved trinitarian sisters in the hood

Hi GraceInHim nice looooong thread huh?

Tell your son to watch "The Devil's Arithmetic" after that
He probably wont think of getting another one

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0179148/

I have a nineteen year old son too

Tishri1 · Feb 10, 2006

Oblio said:
Do you (or MJs in general) worship the Holy Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit ?

Oh yeh sure

Jesus Is Real · Feb 10, 2006

Tishri1 said:
well I honestly don't know what one is....I'm Messianic, and don't let Kepler say that Messianics are Heritics too actually He might just say that but it doesn't make it so

Are you Jewish Tish? (just watching the beginnings of the Olympics,....but checking back in frequently)

Israel's future and Pat: Your view

On Israel(in alphabetical order):

I don't know.

Israel should have it's land back.

Peace in the Middle East.

Something else.

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