Isn't this a case of obvious blasphemy?

FireNBrimstone · Apr 19, 2004

Everything attributed to Mary is a grace from God.

"...From now on all generations will call me blessed" (Luke 1:48)

"If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it."
(1 Cor. 12:26)

FireNBrimstone · Apr 19, 2004

492 The "splendour of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son".136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love".137

Emphasis mine. Looks like every BLESSING upon Mary is not of her merit but on the grace of God! So how is that blasphemous? The emphasis is on God.

In Luke 1:28, Gabriel greets Mary not with her name, but with the word/title "kecharitomene," or "full of grace." It is the past participle of "charitoo" and translates best as "made full of grace." It is already in the past tense, and is the title by which Mary is addressed (cf. Gen. 3:15).

In Semitic usage, a name expresses the reality of the person/thing to which it refers.

This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" or the Greek word kecharitomene, is only used to describe one other person in the Bible - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

JeffreyLloyd · Apr 19, 2004

bigsierra · Apr 19, 2004

FireNBrimstone said:
Emphasis mine. Looks like every BLESSING upon Mary is not of her merit but on the grace of God! So how is that blasphemous? The emphasis is on God.

In Luke 1:28, Gabriel greets Mary not with her name, but with the word/title "kecharitomene," or "full of grace." It is the past participle of "charitoo" and translates best as "made full of grace." It is already in the past tense, and is the title by which Mary is addressed (cf. Gen. 3:15).

In Semitic usage, a name expresses the reality of the person/thing to which it refers.

This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" or the Greek word kecharitomene, is only used to describe one other person in the Bible - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

WoW, thanks. That's much clearer than my posts on the subject. I was doing the research on the fly.

koppee1 · Apr 19, 2004

errr...guys, I'm not debating about Mary...I'm talking about the use of an unrelated verse to prove a statement.

Roald · Apr 19, 2004

Koppee,

I definitely don't want to debate or argue here...(so maybe I should just be quiet

I understand that you are pointing out that the verse referenced does not prove the doctrine discussed. The Catholic Church doesn't really always use the Bible to prove its doctrine. That probably is a lot different from the methods used by just about anyone else, including individual Catholics. The reference to Sacred Scripture is probably there to show the depth of the doctrine and its connections to other themes present in the Bible. So, the doctrine may not follow directly from the passage because its not supposed to. Hope that I have been helpful. Of course, this could be discussed more in depth in OBOB.

thereselittleflower · Apr 20, 2004

koppee1 said:
I just thought that using a verse totally unrelated to the suject to suit one's need could be termed as blasphemous. Something like...God chose Koppee1 "in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. Then I'd point to that scripture and say I was without sin and it's based on the bible. Kinda like that....

as for this statement " I am not sure where or why you think this is blasphmous? God Chose Mary I think we all agree!", God indeed chose Mary to give birth to Jesus, but did not choose her to be blameless etc....AT LEAST according to this verse which they use to justify the statement.

Hi Koppee1

I understand you don't see this verse as applying to Mary . . and without answering that issue, which is better done by us in OBOB, I just thought it might help to understand better how you see such use of a verse as an act of blasphemy. Are you sure blasphemy is the right word to express what you are seeing?

Here are some defintions of blasphemy from the web that came up in a google search . . Do any of these seem to you to fit how you are seeing this verse used?

Definitions of blasphemy on the Web:

[size=-1]

blasphemous language (expressing disrespect for God or for something sacred)
[url]www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn[/url]

blasphemous behavior; the act of depriving something of its sacred character; "desecration of the Holy Sabbath"
[url]www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn[/url]

Injurious or abusive speech, especially that directed against God, one of the most serious of all sins. Israelites were punished with death by stoning for calling down evil upon God. (Exo 20:7)
bookshelf.info/wordlists/e/eec/www/=B.html

Swearing in the name of God, denying the existence of God, saying evil things about God, etc. One religion's affirmation of their God is another religion's blasphemy about their God.
[url]www.religioustolerance.org/gl_b.htm[/url]

Evil and reproachful language directed at God, the Virgin, the Saints or sacred objects. The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a mortal and unforgivable sin, because it presumes that Got's saving action in this particular case is impossible. (cf. Matt. 12: 31).
essenes.crosswinds.net/odict.htm

Speech or writing expressing contempt for God.
[url]www.datarat.net/DR/Lex-B.html[/url]

Speaking evil of God or denying Him some good which we should attribute to Him. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is stating that Jesus did his miracles by the power of the devil (Matt. 12:22-32) and is an unforgivable sin (Mark 3:28-30). Blasphemy arises out of pride (Ps. 73:9,11), hatred (Ps. 74:18), injustice (Is. 52:5), etc. Christ was mistakenly accused of blasphemy (John 10:30-33).
[url]www.sullivan-county.com/identity/dictionary/dic_a-b.htm[/url]

Words that are spoken against God.
[url]www.geocities.com/brentwoodursuline/dictionary.htm[/url]

To reproach or to bring a railing accusation against any one is bad enough (Jude 9), but to speak lightly or carelessly of God is a mortal sin. The third commandment, "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God" (Exod 20:7), was observed so meticulously by the Jews that they would not speak the sacred name (Jehovah) at all, and so no one knows today for certain how it was pronounced. Christian - The biblical meaning is "adherent of Christ." The disciples were formally called Christians first in Antioch (Acts 11:26). Agrippa recognized that to believe what Paul preached would make him a Christian (26:28). Peter accepted the name as in itself a basis for persecution (1 Peter 4:16). The apostles wrote of themselves as servants (slaves) of Christ (Rom 1:1; James 1:1; 2 Peter 1:1; Jude 1; Rev 1:1).
[url]www.knowyourscripture.com/helpful_definitions.htm[/url]

Peace in Him!
[/size]

Cookie_monster · Apr 20, 2004

Where is the origional post by FireNbrimstone or an I missing something?

bigsierra · Apr 20, 2004

Cookie_monster said:
Where is the origional post by FireNbrimstone or an I missing something?

hmmm, they were eliminated.

geocajun · Apr 20, 2004

bigsierra said:
hmmm, they were eliminated.

FireNbrimstone is actually another person who is perminately banned (ineligible for Amnesty day). When staff realized this, FireNbrimstone was banned.

I normally would not post this information, but I do not want folks to think his posts were removed by the PRE mods because he defended a Catholic teaching.

Abba · Apr 20, 2004

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

So is this saying that we can't ask for Mary or the saints for their prayers for us? Jesus wasnt really talking about where our prayers would be directed to, as long as it ends up in front of him. Jesus is right next to God, at his right hand, so when we ask him for something both the father and the son hears our prayer. This is merely saying that we cant save ourselves, we cannot come to heaven to meet the father if it wasnt for His sacrifice and things that he instituted and taught while on Earth.

It is so stupid to say that when we ask the saints for intercession that we arent obeying this part of scripture. I dont think hes jealous to be the only one to hear our prayers, just as long as the prayer ends up in front of him. I think that hed want us to love and know the saints in heaven well.

Compare it to an artist with a masterpiece. What if you went to see the artist but he wouldnt let you admire his masterpiece. What if he said, "only give credit where credit is due?" I think that if we honor his creations, we also honor him

No, I dont think this is blashpemous, (and as theresethelittleflower pointed out, blasphemy isnt at all the right word for your argument) because God is an almighty being. He is not limited in foresight and does not just choose a woman to be the mother of Christ on the spot. He has prepared his plan for eternity, and he created a wonderful sinless vessel with which he would use to clothe Christ in his human flesh. How could he let Jesus inherit the sin that comes from having our sinful human nature?

RhetorTheo · Apr 20, 2004

The "full of grace" refers to the Lord, not to Mary? So it should be read "Hail, [Lord,] full of grace, the Lord is with thee"? The Lord was with the Lord?

GreenEyedLady · Apr 20, 2004

RhetorTheo said:
The "full of grace" refers to the Lord, not to Mary? So it should be read "Hail, [Lord,] full of grace, the Lord is with thee"? The Lord was with the Lord?

No, it should read like this.......
Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (KJV)

GEL

RhetorTheo · Apr 20, 2004

GreenEyedLady said:
No, it should read like this.......
Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (KJV)

GEL

The "thou that art highly favoured" refers to the Lord, not to Mary? So it should be read "Hail, [Lord,] thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee"? The Lord was with the Lord?

GreenEyedLady · Apr 20, 2004

No..........its referring to Mary.
Oh my.....I guess we are all confused
It refers to Mary, but no where in the Bible does it say Mary was full of grace, she was highly favoured of the Lord, but not full of grace. The word greek full means perfect, and there is only one person who was perfect.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

RhetorTheo · Apr 20, 2004

Did Jesus tell us to be perfect in the Sermon on the Mount?

Filia Mariae · Apr 20, 2004

It refers to Mary, but no where in the Bible does it say Mary was full of grace, she was highly favoured of the Lord, but not full of grace. The word greek full means perfect, and there is only one person who was perfect.

Kecharitomine does not mean "highly favored." Here, a common translation problem occurs. Gabriel only uses one word to refer to Mary, but most English translations do not. One particularly bad translation renders kecharitomene as "highly favored daughter." Kecharitomene is extended from one word to three. The direct address in the translation is "daughter," a word which does not appear in the Greek at all (as will be shown below). "Daughter" is then modified with a relevant word. This doesn't really do kecharitomene justice. The same is true of translations which make the direct address "you" or "one" and modify it with adjectives or appositive phrases.

The root word is charitoo [caritow], which means "to grace, favor." On this much, it seems, all agree. All the common English translations of the word therefore, regardless of whether the translators are Catholic or Protestant, use some form of "grace" or "favor" in them.

The prefix on charitoo is ke, signifying that the word is in the perfect tense. This indicates a present state which is the result of a completed past action. The action which brought about the state in which Mary is, in other words, was completed before Gabriel's greeting. Gabriel is viewing the finished results.
This tense seems difficult to render in English, especially with one word, as Gabriel uses. The translator does not only want to indicate that the past action is complete, but also that there is a continuing state as a result. Allowing for more than one word, an example of the tense in English might be "you are certified to teach." "Are" indicates a present state, "certified" shows that the state is the result of a completed past action.

The suffix on charitoo, mene, makes this a passive participle. "Passive" means that the action is performed on the subject, in this case Mary, by another agent. The verb is "grace" and the implied subject is Mary. The passive usage means that "someone graced Mary," rather than "Mary graced." Most theologians would probably accept the assumption that the implied "someone" is God. "Participle," in this case, means that the word has properties of both a verb and a noun. This makes sense in light of what has already been said about direct address. A direct address is a noun or pronoun, but "to grace" is a verb. Kecharitomene has verb and noun properties.

Again, there can be weaknesses in translation here. For example, St. Jerome and the King James translators tried to render kecharitomene as "full of grace." This translation is very good compared to many others, but because "grace" is no longer verb-like, it is also not passive as it is in Greek. Popular Catholic usage of this translation prompted this Protestant complaint:

The gratia plena [full of grace] of the Vulgate is too indefinite. It is right if it means "full of grace, which thou hast received"; wrong if it means "full of grace, which thou hast to bestow" [i.e. on Jesus]. (quoted in John McHugh's The Mother of Jesus in the New Testament)

It seems that the best possible translation of kecharitomene into English might be "Are-graced." Please bear with the explanation. Kecharitomene is a single word direct address. If at all possible, this should be retained in the translation. To signify their unity, a hyphen is added between the two English words. The implied "you" ("[you] are graced") is omitted, because including it would shift the direct address to "you" and away from the root "grace." Because the term takes the place of Mary's name and signifies her identity, it may be capitalized (not strictly necessary). "Are-graced" does indicate a present state ("are") which is the result of a past action ("graced"), and it retains the passive quality of the original ("[you] are graced [by God]"). It is admittedly not natural for these verbs to be used in a noun-like way, but this is an attempt at a more literal than dynamic translation.
Rejoice, Are-graced! Sadly, no English translation retains all of the aesthetically pleasing alliterative qualities and possible word-play of the Greek's "Chaire, kecharitomene!"
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/8410/kecharitomene.html

KennySe · Apr 20, 2004

How is everyone's understanding of Greek? (see all the English translations of charitoo)
http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/CONGRK548.htm#S5487

http://www.christianforums.com/t152728

Saint Jerome's understanding of the Greek, translated into Latin [the man was multi-lingual] is gratia plena

BBAS 64 · Apr 20, 2004

Good Day, All

Can not believe we go down this road yet again "Kecharitomene" in the Greek is not a name at all and has been adressed in all Greek Lexicons and is a non issue for all whom understand NT greek on both sides of the issue. The Latin that Carly brings up as far as Jerome has been addresess by the NT scholar from the Vatican Raymond Brown in a book he published in 1978, the redenering of the phase in the Latin calls for the normal translation of "Highly Favored" for the Catholic community of teachers which he taught. So that the layman and cleargy could be informed.

Futher more most if not all Latin scholars agree with his "Ray Brown" assesment of the Latin here.

Peace to u,

Bill

Veritas · Apr 20, 2004

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, All

Can not believe we go down this road yet again "Kecharitomene" in the Greek is not a name at all and has been adressed in all Greek Lexicons and is a non issue for all whom understand NT greek on both sides of the issue. The Latin that Carly brings up as far as Jerome has been addresess by the NT scholar from the Vatican Raymond Brown in a book he published in 1978, the redenering of the phase in the Latin calls for the normal translation of "Highly Favored" for the Catholic community of teachers which he taught. So that the layman and cleargy could be informed.

Futher more most if not all Latin scholars agree with his "Ray Brown" assesment of the Latin here.

Peace to u,

Bill

Would you please provide a name of the book you are referring to and also reference the Latin scholars you claim all agree with with this author?

Thank you.

Isn't this a case of obvious blasphemy?

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