Isn't this a case of obvious blasphemy?

koppee1 · Apr 18, 2004

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1K.HTM

<scroll down or search for "blameless" in the page>

492 The "splendour of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son".136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love".137

NOTE THE quotation marks in the last sentence....

and if you click the "137" footnote link, it shows a verse...Ephesisans 1:3-4

note the verse doesn't talk about Mary...AT ALL. And yet....the catholic church uses the verse by putting part of the verse after "and chose her"....

Dark_Lite · Apr 18, 2004

Col · Apr 18, 2004

Maybe in our eyes and understanding, "misinterpretation" is a better word.

Bless Ya
Col <><

Oblio · Apr 18, 2004

While I (and the Church) don't agree with the RC doctrine of IC, I see nothing blasphemous in this statement.

Polycarp1 · Apr 18, 2004

Are you familiar with the doctrine of prevenient grace -- the idea that God calls us to Himself before we ever develop faith in Him, and indeed that it is His grace that we develop that faith?

The whole Immaculate Conception concept of Catholic theology is deeply integrated with that idea -- that God, to have a suitable human "receptacle" for the Incarnation, especially blessed Mary, His humble servant, ahead of time, keeping her pure and spotless in a world of sin.

It's not founded in some special merit of Mary as a human being, but in the grace of God acting ahead of time, in accord with His Plan.

As an Anglican, it's not an article of my faith -- but I can see how the idea fits in with His Plan of Salvation for us, and is no more blasphemous than the idea that while we were still in sin, He nonetheless loved us and called us to Himself in repentance and humility.

Cookie_monster · Apr 18, 2004

I see nothing blasphemious, but I am only learning. Maybe your search for information might be better put to use if you look for something positive instead of trying to condemn a group and their beliefs?

geocajun · Apr 18, 2004

Kopee if you want to understand the Church teaching on the Imaculate Conception of Mary, you can ask it in the One Bread, One Body forum.
I do hope you might be more charitable than outright accusing the Church of blasphemy when you ask the question.

Your brother in Christ

Flynmonkie · Apr 18, 2004

koppee1 said:
NOTE THE quotation marks in the last sentence....

and if you click the "137" footnote link, it shows a verse...Ephesisans 1:3-4

note the verse doesn't talk about Mary...AT ALL. And yet....the catholic church uses the verse by putting part of the verse after "and chose her"....

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

Ephesians 1
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

I am not sure where or why you think this is blasphmous? God Chose Mary I think we all agree!

Is it because it is stated that:

The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person?

She was the Mother of Jesus...What is giving you the difficulty?

BjBarnett · Apr 18, 2004

geocajun said:
Kopee if you want to understand the Church teaching on the Imaculate Conception of Mary, you can ask it in the One Bread, One Body forum.
I do hope you might be more charitable than outright accusing the Church of blasphemy when you ask the question.

Your brother in Christ

agreed especially when we cant debate the situation here.

PaladinValer · Apr 18, 2004

There is nothing wrong with the statement. There are many Protestants, especially if they are Anglican/Episcopalian, who even agree that Mary was born without sin. And the Catholics' argument for it is quite plausible and logical.

bigsierra · Apr 18, 2004

Saint Luke
Chapter 1

28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (Douay-Rheims)

It's almost like Mary got a new name. Doesn't that kind of blow your mind?

Here is another translation(NASB):
Luke 1
28 And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."

What made her "favored?"

GreenEyedLady · Apr 18, 2004

No, my mind is not blown.......

Genesis 29:17 Leah was tender eyed; but Rachel was beautiful and well favoured.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This is the only place that "full of grace" is used in scripture, and its Christ who is full of grace, not Mary.
Also, there are women in the bible who did have thier names changed because God wanted it that way. I am trying to understand your point bigserria.
Am I missing something?
GEL

bigsierra · Apr 18, 2004

My point is nothing more than, that she had something special happen. A special call.

This is the only place that "full of grace" is used in scripture, and its Christ who is full of grace, not Mary.

Are you saying Christ didn't cause her to be filled with grace? Did you think I was saying that she gets the grace from herself?

GreenEyedLady · Apr 18, 2004

What I am saying is that the scripture you posted was mistranslated. Technically Christ is the only one who was ever "full of grace."
I agree she had a special calling, but I do not agree that she was sinless or a virgin until her death. God blessed her with giving her the Messiah to give birth to and the strength to raise Him and watch Him die. Mary was obdient to God's calling and I can say Praise God for that!
GEL~

bigsierra · Apr 18, 2004

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/RobertsonsWordPictures/rwp.cgi?book=lu&chapter=1&verse=28

Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Highly favoured (kecaritwmenh). Perfect passive participle of caritow and means endowed with grace (cariß), enriched with grace as in Ephesians 1:6, non ut mater gratiae, sed ut filia gratiae (Bengel). The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; wrong, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow"' (Plummer). The oldest MSS. do not have "Blessed art thou among women" here, but in verse Ephesians 42.

backley · Apr 18, 2004

bigsierra said:
Saint Luke
Chapter 1

28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (Douay-Rheims)

It's almost like Mary got a new name. Doesn't that kind of blow your mind?

Here is another translation(NASB):
Luke 1
28 And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."

What made her "favored?"

Good question what made Stephen "favored?"

Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.

Brian

bigsierra · Apr 18, 2004

GreenEyedLady said:
No, my mind is not blown.......

Genesis 29:17 Leah was tender eyed; but Rachel was beautiful and well favoured.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This is the only place that "full of grace" is used in scripture, and its Christ who is full of grace, not Mary.
Also, there are women in the bible who did have thier names changed because God wanted it that way. I am trying to understand your point bigserria.
Am I missing something?
GEL

John 1:14 doesn't actually use that word

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commenta...k=joh&chapter=001&verse=014&next=015&prev=013

Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament said:
Full (plhrhß). Probably indeclinable accusative adjective agreeing with doxan (or genitive with monogenouß) of which we have papyri examples (Robertson, Grammar, p. 275). As nominative plhrhß can agree with the subject of eskhnwsen. Of grace and truth (caritoß kai alhqeiaß). Curiously this great word cariß (grace), so common with Paul, does not occur in John's Gospel

It is in Ephesians 1:6 though:

Ephesians 1:6
to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commenta...k=eph&chapter=001&verse=006&next=007&prev=005

Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament said:
To the praise (eiß epainon). Note the prepositions in this sentence. Which (hß). Genitive case of the relative hn (cognate accusative with ecaritwsen (he freely bestowed), late verb caritow (from cariß, grace), in N.T. attracted to case of antecedent caritoß only here and Luke 1:28. In the Beloved (en twi hgaphmenwi). Perfect passive participle of agapaw. This phrase nowhere else in the N.T. though in the Apostolic Fathers.

Luke 1:28 and Ephesians 1:6 are the only ones that use the word caritow, which means endowed with grace. (check previous post, regarding Luke 1:28) That "Grace" is from God, properly interpreted

bigsierra · Apr 18, 2004

backley said:
Good question what made Stephen "favored?"

Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.

Brian

I don't know but it was definately awesome, something special from God.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=ac&chapter=6&verse=8

John Gill's Exposition of the Bible said:
Acts 6:8

And Stephen, full of faith and power
The historian proceeds to give a narrative of Stephen particularly, the first of the seven deacons; of his faith and miracles, of his elocution and wisdom, of his courage and intrepidity, of his constancy, and of his suffering martyrdom. He is said to be full of faith, as before, (Acts 6:5) the Alexandrian copy, and four of Beza's copies read, "full of grace"; and so do the Vulgate Latin and Syriac versions; the Ethiopic version reads, "full of the grace of God": he had an uncommon share of it; it was exceeding abundant in him; he had a sufficiency of it for the service and sufferings he was called to: and he was full of power to preach the Gospel, and teach it the people, which he did with authority; to defend it, and oppose the adversaries of it; to bear reproach and indignities for it, and even death itself; and to do miraculous works for the confirmation of it, as follows:

did great wonders and miracles among the people;
openly before them, such as speaking with divers tongues, healing diseases, casting out devils

Col · Apr 19, 2004

Oh dear oh dear, semantics semantics semantics, don't you think this is getting a little out of hand. Why people are getting so uptight about this, when in my humble opinion, it has no bearing on one's ultimate relationship with God (no disrespect to Mary intended), I am pretty sure everyone agrees with John 14:6

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Maybe this thread should have been started in OBOB so our Catholic bretheren could fully explain their reasoning and defend (for want of a better word) their position if they feel it is warranted. I am sure if anyone here is genuinely seeking to understand their mindset they would be more than willing to share. However, to argue the point over this doesn't help anyone.

I think it can be taken as read that their are two different schools of thought on Mary's role and significance, and one side is unlikely to change the other sides view in these threads. However some may find food for thought (on both sides), as a result of a sincere quest for understanding.

Bless Ya
Col <><

koppee1 · Apr 19, 2004

I just thought that using a verse totally unrelated to the suject to suit one's need could be termed as blasphemous. Something like...God chose Koppee1 "in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. Then I'd point to that scripture and say I was without sin and it's based on the bible. Kinda like that....

as for this statement " I am not sure where or why you think this is blasphmous? God Chose Mary I think we all agree!", God indeed chose Mary to give birth to Jesus, but did not choose her to be blameless etc....AT LEAST according to this verse which they use to justify the statement.

Isn't this a case of obvious blasphemy?

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