Islam doesn't condone terror

durangodawood · Mar 20, 2011

Rebax said:
....Why should I base my faith, my way of life in a corrupted book? Written by men? Written from words of men? ....

What if ALL the holy books are the words of men, written by men?
.

Rebax · Mar 20, 2011

durangodawood said:
What if ALL the holy books are the words of men, written by men?
.

It's up to everyones beleif and what they believe. The thing is I have read about history of bible...Seen documentary about it and if one look close it have been corrupten, written over again and so on, but yet again brother. You have your own faith and I have mine

To bring up little more about this issue the Quran challanged the mankind to produce something similiar to this...It can be found in the Quran:

Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." [Qur'an 17:88]
And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]
And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns,and all that exists).
Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'an 10:37-38]
Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'an 11:13]
Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it (this Qur'an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'an) if they are truthful. [Qur'an 52:33-34]

Abdur Rahim Green mentions that:

These are the sixteen al-Bihar (literally "The Seas", so called because of the way the poem moves, according to its rhythmic patterns): at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. So the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook. Now I think at least the Christian's "Holy spirit" that makes you talk in tongues, part of your "Tri-Unity" of God should be able to inspire one of you with that!

To begin with; the Arabic language and Arab speech are divided into two branches. One of them is rhymed poetry. It is a speech with metre and rhyme, which means every line of it ends upon a definite letter, which is called the 'rhyme'. This rhymed poetry is again divided into metres or what is called as al-Bihar, literally meaning 'The Seas'. This is so called because of the way the poetry moves according to the rhythmic patterns. There are sixteen al-Bihar viz; at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. Each one rhymes differently. For metres of Arabic poetry please see please see Lyall's book Translations Of Ancient Arabian Poetry, Chiefly Pre-Islamic.[1] He discusses al-Kamil, al-Wafir, al-Hajaz, at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Khafif and al-Madid briefly.[2]
The other branch of Arabic speech is prose, that is non-metrical speech. The prose may be a rhymed prose. Rhymed prose consists of cola ending on the same rhyme throughout, or of sentences rhymed in pairs. This is called "rhymed prose" or sajc. Prose may also be straight prose (mursal). In straight prose, the speech goes on and is not divided in cola, but is continued straight through without any divisions, either of rhyme or of anything else. Prose is employed in sermons and prayers and in speeches intended to encourage or frighten the masses.[3] One of the most famous speeches involving sajc is that of Hajjaj bin Yusuf in his first deputation in Iraq in post-Islamic and Quss bin Sa'idah in pre-Islamic times.
So, the challenge, as cAbdur Rahim Green mentions, is to produce in Arabic , three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen al-Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook. Indeed

The Qur'an is not verse, but it is rhythmic. The rhythm of some verses resemble the regularity of sajc, and both are rhymed, while some verses have a similarity to Rajaz in its vigour and rapidity. But it was recognized by Quraysh critics to belong to neither one nor the other category.[4]

It is interesting to know that all the pre-Islam and post-Islamic poetry collected by Louis Cheikho falls in the above sixteen metres or al-Bihar.[5] Indeed the pagans of Mecca repeated accuse Prophet Muhammad(P) for being a forger, a soothsayer etc. The Arabs who were at the pinnacle of their poetry and prose during the time of revelation of the Qur'an could not even produce the smallest surah of its like. The Qur'an's form did not fit into any of the above mentioned categories. It was this that made the Qur'an inimitable, and left the pagan Arabs at a loss as to how they might combat it as Alqama bin cAbd al-Manaf confirmed when he addressed their leaders, the Quraysh:

Oh Quraish, a new calamity has befallen you. Mohammed was a young man the most liked among you, most truthful in speech, and most trustworthy, until, when you saw gray hairs on his temple, and he brought you his message, you said that he was a sorcerer, but he is not, for we seen such people and their spitting and their knots; you said, a diviner, but we have seen such people and their behavior, and we have heard their rhymes; you said a soothsayer, but he is not a soothsayer, for we have heard their rhymes; and you said a poet, but he is not a poet, for we have heard all kinds of poetry; you said he was possessed, but he is not for we have seen the possessed, and he shows no signs of their gasping and whispering and delirium. Oh men of Quraish, look to your affairs, for by Allah a serious thing has befallen you.

It is a well known fact that the Qur'an was revealed in seven ahruf (or seven forms) to facilitate greater understanding of it among the Arabs who had different dialects. This was also to challenge them on their own grounds to produce a surah like that of the Qur'an. The challenge became more obvious when none of the seven major tribes could imitate it even in their own dialects as no one could claim that it was difficult to imitate due to it not being in their own dialect.[6]
What Do The Orientalists Say About The Inimitability Of The Qur'an?
E H Palmer, as early as 1880, recognized the unique style of the Qur'an. But he seem to have been wavering between two thoughts. He writes in the Introduction to his translation of the Qur'an:
That the best of Arab writers has never succeeded in producing anything equal in merit to the Qur'an itself is not surprising. In the first place, they have agreed before-hand that it is unapproachable, and they have adopted its style as the perfect standard; any deviation from it therefore must of necessity be a defect. Again, with them this style is not spontaneous as with Muhammad and his contemporaries, but is as artificial as though Englishmen should still continue to follow Chaucer as their model, in spite of the changes which their language has undergone. With the Prophet, the style was natural, and the words were those in every-day ordinary life, while with the later Arabic authors the style is imitative and the ancient words are introduced as a literary embellishment. The natural consequence is that their attempts look laboured and unreal by the side of his impromptu and forcible eloquence.[7]
The famous Arabist from University of Oxford, Hamilton Gibb was open upon about the style of the Qur'an. In his words:

...the Meccans still demanded of him a miracle, and with remarkable boldness and self confidence Mohammad appealed as a supreme confirmation of his mission to the Koran itself. Like all Arabs they were the connoisseurs of language and rhetoric. Well, then if the Koran were his own composition other men could rival it. Let them produce ten verses like it. If they could not (and it is obvious that they could not), then let them accept the Koran as an outstanding evident miracle.[8]

And in some other place, talking about the Prophet(P) and the Qur'an, he states:

Though, to be sure, the question of the literary merit is one not to be judged on a priori grounds but in relation to the genius of Arabic language; and no man in fifteen hundred years has ever played on that deep-toned instrument with such power, such boldness, and such range of emotional effect as Mohammad did.[9]
As a literary monument the Koran thus stands by itself, a production unique to the Arabic literature, having neither forerunners nor successors in its own idiom. Muslims of all ages are united in proclaiming the inimitability not only of its contents but also of its style..... and in forcing the High Arabic idiom into the expression of new ranges of thought the Koran develops a bold and strikingly effective rhetorical prose in which all the resources of syntactical modulation are exploited with great freedom and originality.[10]

On the influence of the Qur'an on Arabic literature Gibb says:

The influence of the Koran on the development of Arabic Literature has been incalculable, and exerted in many directions. Its ideas, its language, its rhymes pervade all subsequent literary works in greater or lesser measure. Its specific linguistic features were not emulated, either in the chancery prose of the next century or in the later prose writings, but it was at least partly due to the flexibility imparted by the Koran to the High Arabic idiom that the former could be so rapidly developed and adjusted to the new needs of the imperial government and an expanding society.[11]

As the Qur'an itself says:

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. (Qur'an 2:23-24)

Lastly, the beautiful style of the Qur'an is admired even by the Arab Christians:

The Quran is one of the world's classics which cannot be translated without grave loss. It has a rhythm of peculiar beauty and a cadence that charms the ear. Many Christian Arabs speak of its style with warm admiration, and most Arabists acknowledge its excellence. When it is read aloud or recited it has an almost hypnotic effect that makes the listener indifferent to its sometimes strange syntax and its sometimes, to us, repellent content. It is this quality it possesses of silencing criticism by the sweet music of its language that has given birth to the dogma of its inimitability; indeed it may be affirmed that within the literature of the Arabs, wide and fecund as it is both in poetry and in elevated prose, there is nothing to compare with it.

The above sentences speak of themselves. Summing up: Within the Arabic literature, either poetry or prose, there is nothing comparable to the Qur'an. Muslims throughout the centuries are united upon the its inimitability.

Peace.

plenary · Mar 20, 2011

There's nothing called moderate muslims. It's just something that west try to tell us. We truely respect Jesus (Pbuh) but we don't accepet him as begin a part of God (Gods son). Why should I base my faith, my way of life in a corrupted book? Written by men? Written from words of men? Hmmm...Certainly Islam has more to offer for the people that search for the truth. I've already put up evidence about terrorism is not from Islam but you keep discussing it which means you haven't read what have been said and swim in a sea of ignorance.

You're right, there is no such thing as a moderate muslim... They all follow blindly after a false prophet and scores are willing to murder in name of allah... Because they are taught to do so... Reason is forbidden in Islam...

They do not understand the character of the devil nor the devilish forces...

And you make the same mistake as Muhammad made... When you say that the Bible was written by men, with words of men, you have absolutely no idea, whatsoever, how prophets work....

And Christianity still has prophets, but do you think that Muslims are in the slightest interested in that fact? Nope, because they accept Muhammad to be the last prophet, even thought, Muhammad didn't even know by what power prophets prophecy.....

1 corinthians 14:
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

durangodawood · Mar 20, 2011

Rebax said:
It's up to everyones beleif and what they believe. The thing is I have read about history of bible...Seen documentary about it and if one look close it have been corrupten, written over again and so on, but yet again brother. You have your own faith and I have mine

To bring up little more about this issue the Quran challanged the mankind to produce something similiar to this...It can be found in the Quran:

Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." [Qur'an 17:88]
And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]
And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns,and all that exists).
Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'an 10:37-38]
Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'an 11:13]
Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it (this Qur'an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'an) if they are truthful. [Qur'an 52:33-34]

Abdur Rahim Green mentions that:

These are the sixteen al-Bihar (literally "The Seas", so called because of the way the poem moves, according to its rhythmic patterns): at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. So the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook. Now I think at least the Christian's "Holy spirit" that makes you talk in tongues, part of your "Tri-Unity" of God should be able to inspire one of you with that!

To begin with; the Arabic language and Arab speech are divided into two branches. One of them is rhymed poetry. It is a speech with metre and rhyme, which means every line of it ends upon a definite letter, which is called the 'rhyme'. This rhymed poetry is again divided into metres or what is called as al-Bihar, literally meaning 'The Seas'. This is so called because of the way the poetry moves according to the rhythmic patterns. There are sixteen al-Bihar viz; at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. Each one rhymes differently. For metres of Arabic poetry please see please see Lyall's book Translations Of Ancient Arabian Poetry, Chiefly Pre-Islamic.[1] He discusses al-Kamil, al-Wafir, al-Hajaz, at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Khafif and al-Madid briefly.[2]
The other branch of Arabic speech is prose, that is non-metrical speech. The prose may be a rhymed prose. Rhymed prose consists of cola ending on the same rhyme throughout, or of sentences rhymed in pairs. This is called "rhymed prose" or sajc. Prose may also be straight prose (mursal). In straight prose, the speech goes on and is not divided in cola, but is continued straight through without any divisions, either of rhyme or of anything else. Prose is employed in sermons and prayers and in speeches intended to encourage or frighten the masses.[3] One of the most famous speeches involving sajc is that of Hajjaj bin Yusuf in his first deputation in Iraq in post-Islamic and Quss bin Sa'idah in pre-Islamic times.
So, the challenge, as cAbdur Rahim Green mentions, is to produce in Arabic , three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen al-Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook. Indeed

The Qur'an is not verse, but it is rhythmic. The rhythm of some verses resemble the regularity of sajc, and both are rhymed, while some verses have a similarity to Rajaz in its vigour and rapidity. But it was recognized by Quraysh critics to belong to neither one nor the other category.[4]

It is interesting to know that all the pre-Islam and post-Islamic poetry collected by Louis Cheikho falls in the above sixteen metres or al-Bihar.[5] Indeed the pagans of Mecca repeated accuse Prophet Muhammad(P) for being a forger, a soothsayer etc. The Arabs who were at the pinnacle of their poetry and prose during the time of revelation of the Qur'an could not even produce the smallest surah of its like. The Qur'an's form did not fit into any of the above mentioned categories. It was this that made the Qur'an inimitable, and left the pagan Arabs at a loss as to how they might combat it as Alqama bin cAbd al-Manaf confirmed when he addressed their leaders, the Quraysh:

Oh Quraish, a new calamity has befallen you. Mohammed was a young man the most liked among you, most truthful in speech, and most trustworthy, until, when you saw gray hairs on his temple, and he brought you his message, you said that he was a sorcerer, but he is not, for we seen such people and their spitting and their knots; you said, a diviner, but we have seen such people and their behavior, and we have heard their rhymes; you said a soothsayer, but he is not a soothsayer, for we have heard their rhymes; and you said a poet, but he is not a poet, for we have heard all kinds of poetry; you said he was possessed, but he is not for we have seen the possessed, and he shows no signs of their gasping and whispering and delirium. Oh men of Quraish, look to your affairs, for by Allah a serious thing has befallen you.

It is a well known fact that the Qur'an was revealed in seven ahruf (or seven forms) to facilitate greater understanding of it among the Arabs who had different dialects. This was also to challenge them on their own grounds to produce a surah like that of the Qur'an. The challenge became more obvious when none of the seven major tribes could imitate it even in their own dialects as no one could claim that it was difficult to imitate due to it not being in their own dialect.[6]
What Do The Orientalists Say About The Inimitability Of The Qur'an?
E H Palmer, as early as 1880, recognized the unique style of the Qur'an. But he seem to have been wavering between two thoughts. He writes in the Introduction to his translation of the Qur'an:
That the best of Arab writers has never succeeded in producing anything equal in merit to the Qur'an itself is not surprising. In the first place, they have agreed before-hand that it is unapproachable, and they have adopted its style as the perfect standard; any deviation from it therefore must of necessity be a defect. Again, with them this style is not spontaneous as with Muhammad and his contemporaries, but is as artificial as though Englishmen should still continue to follow Chaucer as their model, in spite of the changes which their language has undergone. With the Prophet, the style was natural, and the words were those in every-day ordinary life, while with the later Arabic authors the style is imitative and the ancient words are introduced as a literary embellishment. The natural consequence is that their attempts look laboured and unreal by the side of his impromptu and forcible eloquence.[7]
The famous Arabist from University of Oxford, Hamilton Gibb was open upon about the style of the Qur'an. In his words:

...the Meccans still demanded of him a miracle, and with remarkable boldness and self confidence Mohammad appealed as a supreme confirmation of his mission to the Koran itself. Like all Arabs they were the connoisseurs of language and rhetoric. Well, then if the Koran were his own composition other men could rival it. Let them produce ten verses like it. If they could not (and it is obvious that they could not), then let them accept the Koran as an outstanding evident miracle.[8]

And in some other place, talking about the Prophet(P) and the Qur'an, he states:

Though, to be sure, the question of the literary merit is one not to be judged on a priori grounds but in relation to the genius of Arabic language; and no man in fifteen hundred years has ever played on that deep-toned instrument with such power, such boldness, and such range of emotional effect as Mohammad did.[9]
As a literary monument the Koran thus stands by itself, a production unique to the Arabic literature, having neither forerunners nor successors in its own idiom. Muslims of all ages are united in proclaiming the inimitability not only of its contents but also of its style..... and in forcing the High Arabic idiom into the expression of new ranges of thought the Koran develops a bold and strikingly effective rhetorical prose in which all the resources of syntactical modulation are exploited with great freedom and originality.[10]

On the influence of the Qur'an on Arabic literature Gibb says:

The influence of the Koran on the development of Arabic Literature has been incalculable, and exerted in many directions. Its ideas, its language, its rhymes pervade all subsequent literary works in greater or lesser measure. Its specific linguistic features were not emulated, either in the chancery prose of the next century or in the later prose writings, but it was at least partly due to the flexibility imparted by the Koran to the High Arabic idiom that the former could be so rapidly developed and adjusted to the new needs of the imperial government and an expanding society.[11]

As the Qur'an itself says:

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. (Qur'an 2:23-24)

Lastly, the beautiful style of the Qur'an is admired even by the Arab Christians:

The Quran is one of the world's classics which cannot be translated without grave loss. It has a rhythm of peculiar beauty and a cadence that charms the ear. Many Christian Arabs speak of its style with warm admiration, and most Arabists acknowledge its excellence. When it is read aloud or recited it has an almost hypnotic effect that makes the listener indifferent to its sometimes strange syntax and its sometimes, to us, repellent content. It is this quality it possesses of silencing criticism by the sweet music of its language that has given birth to the dogma of its inimitability; indeed it may be affirmed that within the literature of the Arabs, wide and fecund as it is both in poetry and in elevated prose, there is nothing to compare with it.

The above sentences speak of themselves. Summing up: Within the Arabic literature, either poetry or prose, there is nothing comparable to the Qur'an. Muslims throughout the centuries are united upon the its inimitability.

Peace.

Thats amazing how you put that together in such a short time.
.
Or perhaps you wrote it as a stock response to challenges people might make to your holy book. Either way, its quite a scholarly defense you made there, and I will have to take some time going through it.
.

Rebax · Mar 20, 2011

durangodawood said:
Thats amazing how you put that together in such a short time.
.
Or perhaps you wrote it as a stock response to challenges people might make to your holy book. Either way, its quite a scholarly defense you made there, and I will have to take some time going through it.
.

I've read through it lots of times so yeah, take your time to go through it and if you are after more information you can always ask me!

Peace.

Rebax · Mar 20, 2011

plenary said:
You're right, there is no such thing as a moderate muslim... They all follow blindly after a false prophet and scores are willing to murder in name of allah... Because they are taught to do so... Reason is forbidden in Islam...

They do not understand the character of the devil nor the devilish forces...

And you make the same mistake as Muhammad made... When you see that the Bible was written by men, with words of men, you have absolutely no idea, whatsoever, how prophets work....

And Christianity still has prophets, but do you think that Muslims are in the slightest interested in that fact? Nope, because they accept Muhammad to be the last prophet, even thought, Muhammad didn't even know by what power prophets prophecy.....

''You're right, there is no such thing as a moderate muslim... They all follow blindly after a false prophet and scores are willing to murder in name of allah... Because they are taught to do so... Reason is forbidden in Islam...''

Where are they told to do so in the Quran?

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not do aggression, for Allah loves not the aggressors. Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers." (Al-Baqarah 190-194)

Jihad can be defensive. Such as protecting our homes, people, land and way of life. It can be Liberating, helping free others from tyranny and oppression and it can be preemptive which is launched only when Muslims know for sure that there is treason against their peaceful treaties with the enemy, when the enemy has a serious plan to attack them.

Do you think it's wrong to kill in those cases? If so then tell me why you think so. Stop speak without evidence, when I reply to you I put up evindences for what I say but your argument is word against word.

durangodawood · Mar 20, 2011

Rebax said:
I've read through it lots of times so yeah, take your time to go through it and if you are after more information you can always ask me!

Peace.

You mean its not your writing? its somebody else's?
.
I dont want to give you a hard time over this... but there's something quite ironic in plagiarizing a long article in defense of scriptural authenticity.
.

plenary · Mar 20, 2011

''You're right, there is no such thing as a moderate muslim... They all follow blindly after a false prophet and scores are willing to murder in name of allah... Because they are taught to do so... Reason is forbidden in Islam...''

Where are they told to do so in the Quran?

It's all open to interpretation.. One verse says one thing the other the complete opposite...
Of course, there is room to defend ones-self, but that needs no explanation...

And again, Muhammad knew absolutely nothing about the gift of prophecy, he didn't even know how it functions...
And when you claim, that the Bible is the work of man, then you also don't know the first thing about the gift of prophecy...

No wonder, that you don't understand that there are still prophets, to this day... Which is Christian doctrine and reality....
But off course, you are not interested, because you are not searching for the truth... You're only trying to justify Islam....
We still have prophets, to this day... As the gift of prophecy is just one of the gifts...

But I have a feeling, that this doesn't interest you in the slightest... (Maybe because Muhammad told you that he is the last prophet?? Muhammad is right because Muhammad is right?? It collides with Biblical doctrine, that there is such a thing as a last prophet... Only when this world would cease to exist, that is the day that prophets will be no more)

GQ Chris · Mar 20, 2011

Islam is the religion of murder and death worship.

Montalban · Mar 20, 2011

Rebax said:
You don't seem to get it what Jihad means, yet again you abuse it without knowing the meaning of it and what the Quran says about Jihad, put up evidence and I will reply.

If your religion is so great why do you feel the need to attempt to justify it by seeking tu quoque

Your best argument becomes "You think Islam is violent, well so is your religion"

Which means your god revealed nothing to Islam unique. At best he's allowing you to strive for what everyone else does, including non-dhimmi.

FRM48 · Mar 20, 2011

Rebax said:
There's nothing called moderate muslims. It's just something that west try to tell us. We truely respect Jesus (Pbuh) but we don't accepet him as begin a part of God (Gods son). Why should I base my faith, my way of life in a corrupted book? Written by men? Written from words of men? Hmmm...Certainly Islam has more to offer for the people that search for the truth. I've already put up evidence about terrorism is not from Islam but you keep discussing it which means you haven't read what have been said and swim in a sea of ignorance.

Peace.

You truly respect Jesus,If that were true then you wouldn't stone people to death in muslim countries.As for your comment about the Bible being corrupted,what a joke.If it's corrupted,Who corrupted the text and when was it corrupted?Evidence Please.Also thanks for clarifying the fact that there is no such thing as a moderate in Islam.Now maybe you'll enlighten us on what a true muslim is?Is a true muslim a Jihadist?How about OBL?

HumbleSiPilot77 · Mar 20, 2011

Rebax said:
I never claimed I supported ''Jihadist'', I never did it. You are pathetic right now when you try to collide islam and ''Jihadists''.

Don't refer to personal attacks, it kills the tiny credibility you are striving for. What is the religion of the jihadists? What is the jihad are they after? I have no quarrel about what you support, the problem is with what you don't support...

I've already given you evidence in the Quran that terror didn't start in the Quran, instead it begun in the bible. Find me a Quran verse when killing is aloud, (Killing innocent). You still got lack of knowledge in your bible, this is a humans wealth according to Bible.

You still commit to tu quoque fallacy. Quran is used to establish terror, it has always been. It doesn't have to be in the form of a car bomb, the problem is the vague definitions and the struggle of the muslim to apply Quranic instruction into all aspects of life including government and politics. You are so far away from the actual topic here, it is not even funny, you are displaying typical cyber-jihadist behavior, you are defending Quran by attacking other Scriptures without even having a clue about the historical context of what is said in there.

What kind of a human value does the Bible give to slaves?

I am sure much better than what the Islamic Sultans have done to males that worked in their whorehouses (Harem) smashing their testicles. Now instead of slinging mud and playing the appeal to hypocrisy maybe you can explain the violent attitude of muslims around the world without blaming anyone else for your own faults.

HumbleSiPilot77 · Mar 20, 2011

Rebax said:
Define terror for me, find out what it is, find a verse in the Quran that supports it and stop look like a fool in my eyes. Right now it's word against word, you don't put up anything....Until then I will just ignore you.

I don't care about what I look like in your eyes, you have NOT established any credibility for that to even matter. See I don't play the game with your rules, any Google search can produce plenty of Quranic verses that go either way, asking for a global struggle to defend Islam, fighting until the only religion that is accepted before Allah, which is already defined in the Quran as Islam, or we can find peace where it is promised that Christians, Jews, etc will inherit paradise if the believe in Allah and the Judgement Day. The problem is, this is not a verse throwing contest. Learn to deal with issues.

HumbleSiPilot77 · Mar 20, 2011

Rebax said:
Innocent people? Put up Hadith etc and we will discuss it

Did Muhammad take human life or not? Does it say in the Quran if Jesus did? Who defined what Muhammad killed was not innocent? Who?

HumbleSiPilot77 · Mar 20, 2011

Rebax said:
There's nothing called moderate muslims.

Exactly.

It's just something that west try to tell us.

Who is "us"? What about American muslims who try to paint your religion as a peaceful one when its history show us that it still continues to rely on violence?

We truely respect Jesus (Pbuh) but we don't accepet him as begin a part of God (Gods son).

Jesus Christ is not part of God, He is God. That is the Christian belief.

Why should I base my faith, my way of life in a corrupted book? Written by men? Written from words of men? Hmmm...

Because you might want to believe the words of an arab merchant who was never seen to receive a single revelation from this angel he proclaimed he heard from, because that collection of revelations were not actually collected long after his death, maybe because these revelations were written on rocks, leather pieces, bones and other junk by other men who were also just men. You demand so much evidence from Christians, maybe you should provide some and show us where, when and how Christian Scriptures were corrupted instead of parroting the common misconception of the muslims...

Certainly Islam has more to offer for the people that search for the truth.

What does it have to offer that I do not have in faith in Jesus Christ? Am I to follow your violent and arrogant example here and accept Islam? Try again!

I've already put up evidence about terrorism is not from Islam but you keep discussing it which means you haven't read what have been said and swim in a sea of ignorance.

Okay then, why doesn't it stop? Why can't you educate your own muslims who strive to be jihadists?

HumbleSiPilot77 · Mar 20, 2011

durangodawood said:
Thats amazing how you put that together in such a short time.
.
Or perhaps you wrote it as a stock response to challenges people might make to your holy book. Either way, its quite a scholarly defense you made there, and I will have to take some time going through it.
.

Plagiarizing... What is the Challenge of the Qur'an with Respect to Arabic Prose & Poetry?

HumbleSiPilot77 · Mar 20, 2011

Rebax said:
Jihad can be defensive. Such as protecting our homes, people, land and way of life.

Really? Where is your home, who is your people? Who defines that? Do you live in an islamic state which you claimed is impossible to establish perfectly? How can you defend a way of life when you can't even establish there is an authority on the face of Earth to decide the matters for you?

It can be Liberating, helping free others from tyranny and oppression and it can be preemptive which is launched only when Muslims know for sure that there is treason against their peaceful treaties with the enemy, when the enemy has a serious plan to attack them.

What a generalized way to put it!!! It could be anyone. Irony is tyrannical leaders ruled in mid-east, under different flavors of islam for centuries, they still oppress their people, but somehow West is responsible and when West comes to rescue, they are the oppressors. Again the definition can be fitted to mean ANYTHING.

Do you think it's wrong to kill in those cases? If so then tell me why you think so. Stop speak without evidence, when I reply to you I put up evindences for what I say but your argument is word against word.

Learn for once and for all, this is a not a verse posting contest, your off-context quote mining doesn't mean anything to anyone, your explanations are what matters. Look above, you quoted Baqarah, no context, no history of it, then you proceeded to use it to promote a defensive jihad which by your definition can be used also as OFFENSIVE.

Rebax · Mar 21, 2011

plenary said:
It's all open to interpretation.. One verse says one thing the other the complete opposite...
Of course, there is room to defend ones-self, but that needs no explanation...

And again, Muhammad knew absolutely nothing about the gift of prophecy, he didn't even know how it functions...
And when you claim, that the Bible is the work of man, then you also don't know the first thing about the gift of prophecy...

No wonder, that you don't understand that there are still prophets, to this day... Which is Christian doctrine and reality....
But off course, you are not interested, because you are not searching for the truth... You're only trying to justify Islam....
We still have prophets, to this day... As the gift of prophecy is just one of the gifts...

But I have a feeling, that this doesn't interest you in the slightest... (Maybe because Muhammad told you that he is the last prophet?? Muhammad is right because Muhammad is right?? It collides with Biblical doctrine, that there is such a thing as a last prophet... Only when this world would cease to exist, that is the day that prophets will be no more)

I would be glad if you put up the verses that say the opposite of it?

We muslims believe Jesus (Pbuh) Predicted the right things from God but later on it was corrupted/rewriten. You can deny that, if you are interested in this issue maybe you need to read about the authoers of the bible, none even knows for sure who they are.

Rebax · Mar 21, 2011

Montalban said:
If your religion is so great why do you feel the need to attempt to justify it by seeking tu quoque

Your best argument becomes "You think Islam is violent, well so is your religion"

Which means your god revealed nothing to Islam unique. At best he's allowing you to strive for what everyone else does, including non-dhimmi.

My argument was not You think...I said you don't know for sure instead of searching in the Quran after so called violence things, you haven't even been able to put up a verse?

Rebax · Mar 21, 2011

GQ Chris said:
Islam is the religion of murder and death worship.

Murdering an innocent person is not aloud in Islam, it's one of the greatest sins. Death worship? We only worship God who was not born and will last forever. We believe in him without putting idols in his side. There's only one God who's worth to be worshipped and that's Allah, the merciful.

Peace.

Islam doesn't condone terror

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