Is this Veneration?

Lisa0315 · Feb 26, 2007

IamAdopted said:
This is where you are mistaken sir..He left His word.. His truth written in the power of the Holy Spirit by the apostles.. Jesus didn't leave me a church. I am part of the Church.. He left His truth so that I may become part of the church.. So that I may be sanctified.. SO that I may not conform to this world but that I may be transformed by the renewing of my mind. By the washing of the water of the word.. this is what my Jesus left me.. A sure foundation. Something I can depend on that will lead me to the truth of My God and not on what some other person says He is.. He left me His utmost treasure.. His Breath written and penned by those whom knew Him Personally so that I too can know HIM in such a way.. What an awesome God I serve..

Yes, God is awesome. Tell me. What happened to all the Catholics before the advent of the Protestant movement? Did they all die and go to hell because they venerated Mary and other saints?

With the exception of John, Luke, and Acts, the gospels were not likely written by any of the Apostles. Mathew and Mark were likely written some 100 years later. Paul of course, "knew" Jesus, but he did not spend time with Jesus during Christ's earthly ministry. There is some who speculate that Paul was given special instruction by Christ during the three years that Paul was absent from Scripture after his conversion.

What the Catholic church has (and shares) are apostolic documents. They are not part of our (Protestant)Scripture for whatever reason, but they are available for any who would like to read them. Pretty powerful stuff, I must say. Could they be faked? Sure, but then, you have to reserve the possibility that all of Scripture could have been. Either you believe in Scripture as God-breathed or you don't.

Can anyone tell us why the Apostolic documents (not sure what they are actually called) are not included in Protestant Bibles?

Lisa

Lisa0315 · Feb 26, 2007

OrthodoxyUSA said:
Sorry that you disagree.

You are part of the Church Triumphant (The Heavenly Church), but you are not part of the Church militant (The Church on Earth) who was left authority on Earth.

If you were, you would subject yourself the the authority of a Bishop of an orthodox Church.

As it is with all Protestant Churches, you are attempting to "go it alone".

I have no problem with Protestants who reject the teachings of The Church of Rome, however to throw out all the teachings of the ancient Churches in favor of personal interpretation leads to chaos.

All that being said, it does not deminish the fact that you are indeed Christian and a member (IMHO) of The Church Triumphant!

You and all others who are outside The Earthly Church are in my prayers, that we may all be united in the true faith and the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Forgive me...

Now, this is where I respectfully disagree...We are so part of the Earthly Church and in full communion. There is no way that God would bless us as He has if we weren't. There would have been dire punishment for such rebellion. Instead, we have been blessed almost as much as Israel. The US, founded as a mostly Protestant nation, would NEVER have suceeded as we have if not for the blessings of God on HIS people who are in FULL communion. We are not blessed DESPITE our split with Rome. We are blessed BECAUSE of it.

It takes great faith to do what was done. God is far more concerned with faith than earthly authority or organization, that I know.

Lisa

IamAdopted · Feb 26, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
Yes, God is awesome. Tell me. What happened to all the Catholics before the advent of the Protestant movement? Did they all die and go to hell because they venerated Mary and other saints?

With the exception of John, Luke, and Acts, the gospels were not likely written by any of the Apostles. Mathew and Mark were likely written some 100 years later. Paul of course, "knew" Jesus, but he did not spend time with Jesus during Christ's earthly ministry. There is some who speculate that Paul was given special instruction by Christ during the three years that Paul was absent from Scripture after his conversion.

What the Catholic church has (and shares) are apostolic documents. They are not part of our (Protestant)Scripture for whatever reason, but they are available for any who would like to read them. Pretty powerful stuff, I must say. Could they be faked? Sure, but then, you have to reserve the possibility that all of Scripture could have been. Either you believe in Scripture as God-breathed or you don't.

Can anyone tell us why the Apostolic documents (not sure what they are actually called) are not included in Protestant Bibles?

Lisa

Lisa look at the History.. Look at what the founding fathers did say and when alot of this that is in the church today came from and when it came. This will have to be your study if you really want to know the documentation for some of this.

OrthodoxyUSA · Feb 26, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
Now, this is where I respectfully disagree...We are so part of the Earthly Church and in full communion. There is no way that God would bless us as He has if we weren't. There would have been dire punishment for such rebellion. Instead, we have been blessed almost as much as Israel. The US, founded as a mostly Protestant nation, would NEVER have suceeded as we have if not for the blessings of God on HIS people who are in FULL communion. We are not blessed DESPITE our split with Rome. We are blessed BECAUSE of it.

It takes great faith to do what was done. God is far more concerned with faith than earthly authority or organization, that I know.

Lisa

Well, At least we are respectful.

Forgive me...

Latreia · Feb 26, 2007

IamAdopted said:
well you will have to read for yourself what they believe.. Mary co redemtrix, On and on.. This is not the Gospel that has been preached by the Apostles. So therefore this must be a different one.. I don't even see Mary talked about by the Apostles.. Let alone venerating her.

Oh, dear, this is a slippery slope, perhaps. We cannot be enclosed in our faith by what was not talked about by the Apostles. I see no significance at all that they never mentioned Mary, nor did they think much of Mary Magdelene.

But the Apostles were nowhere to be seen at the foot of the cross where Christ was nailed and left to die.
Remember two women who were there, to gently lower the Body of our Messiah, to cleanse and wrap Him in the white cloth?

To whom did our Saviour first appear? Yet when Mary Magdelene led the Apostles back to the tomb, they saw Him not.

OrthodoxyUSA said:
Sorry that you disagree.

You are part of the Church Triumphant (The Heavenly Church), but you are not part of the Church militant (The Church on Earth) who was left authority on Earth.

If you were, you would subject yourself the the authority of a Bishop of an orthodox Church.

As it is with all Protestant Churches, you are attempting to "go it alone".

I have no problem with Protestants who reject the teachings of The Church of Rome, however to throw out all the teachings of the ancient Churches in favor of personal interpretation leads to chaos.

All that being said, it does not deminish the fact that you are indeed Christian and a member (IMHO) of The Church Triumphant!

You and all others who are outside The Earthly Church are in my prayers, that we may all be united in the true faith and the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Forgive me...

Yes, there is much to learn from such sharing.

IamAdopted said:
Lisa look at the History.. Look at what the founding fathers did say and when alot of this that is in the church today came from and when it came. This will have to be your study if you really want to know the documentation for some of this.

Yes, my dear...look at history. You will see how the sacred texts were preserved, faithfully translated from Greek and Latin for us who cannot read such, were paintakingly, adoringly copied and illuminated by thousands of patient servants of God and Christ, known as Catholic monks and scribes.

How do you imagine those Holy Scriptures, those sacred gospels came to you down all those dark, dangerous centuries of wars, plagues, and black oppressions?

Remember just how much every Christian breathing today owes to the Catholic Church!

lionroar0 · Feb 26, 2007

With the exception of John, Luke, and Acts, the gospels were not likely written by any of the Apostles. Mathew and Mark were likely written some 100 years later. Paul of course, "knew" Jesus, but he did not spend time with Jesus during Christ's earthly ministry. There is some who speculate that Paul was given special instruction by Christ during the three years that Paul was absent from Scripture after his conversion.

The Gospel of Luke and Acts where authored by St. Luke. He was not an apostles but a person who collected these from people and wrote them down. He actually states this explicitly in either the book of Luke or in Acts.

There are only 3 letters(If I remember right) that we know St. Paul wrote with out a doubt.

The Gospel of Matthew and Mark were written at about the same time.

Matthew written somewhere around 70ad

MArk about 65 Ad.

We don't know if the Catholic letters were really written by those who are on their title.

With the execption of Acts and the Gospel of St. Luke and a few of St. Pauls letters we don't know who was the human person that wrote the rest of the NT.

They didn't sign their work.

Peace

Rhamiel · Feb 26, 2007

"Can anyone tell us why the Apostolic documents (not sure what they are actually called) are not included in Protestant Bibles?"
well the Jews do not see those books as inspired either, but this was done after the Church was started so they have no authority, some people claim these books to be unfactual, so thus can not be the Word of God, I have never seen this proved to be true. Really most of the books are kind of small, Tobit is the only one I read all the way through and it is a nice story about God sending an angel to help two youths and an old man.

Latreia · Feb 26, 2007

Rhamiel said:
"Can anyone tell us why the Apostolic documents (not sure what they are actually called) are not included in Protestant Bibles?"

well the Jews do not see those books as inspired either, but this was done after the Church was started so they have no authority, some people claim these books to be unfactual, so thus can not be the Word of God, I have never seen this proved to be true. Really most of the books are kind of small, Tobit is the only one I read all the way through and it is a nice story about God sending an angel to help two youths and an old man.

Why were certain Christian books left out of the Catholic Bibles?

Because somebody has to decide these things as best they can.

I think we are all here today to read and learn everything available in search of knowledge for our strengthened faith in God.

Never fear that our knowledge shall ever overtake or surpass God's own wisdom. Nor that words alone can ever diminish the power of our Lord and Creator.

It is really an "I'm OK, you're Ok, He is Almighty" kind of situation here.

Lisa0315 · Feb 26, 2007

Latreia said:
Oh, dear, this is a slippery slope, perhaps. We cannot be enclosed in our faith by what was not talked about by the Apostles. I see no significance at all that they never mentioned Mary, nor did they think much of Mary Magdelene.

But the Apostles were nowhere to be seen at the foot of the cross where Christ was nailed and left to die.
Remember two women who were there, to gently lower the Body of our Messiah, to cleanse and wrap Him in the white cloth?

To whom did our Saviour first appear? Yet when Mary Magdelene led the Apostles back to the tomb, they saw Him not.

Yes, there is much to learn from such sharing.

Yes, my dear...look at history. You will see how the sacred texts were preserved, faithfully translated from Greek and Latin for us who cannot read such, were paintakingly, adoringly copied and illuminated by thousands of patient servants of God and Christ, known as Catholic monks and scribes.

How do you imagine those Holy Scriptures, those sacred gospels came to you down all those dark, dangerous centuries of wars, plagues, and black oppressions?

Remember just how much every Christian breathing today owes to the Catholic Church!

I agree!

Again, can someone tell us what happened to all those "awful" Catholics before the Reformation?

Lisa

Lisa0315 · Feb 26, 2007

IamAdopted said:
Lisa look at the History.. Look at what the founding fathers did say and when alot of this that is in the church today came from and when it came. This will have to be your study if you really want to know the documentation for some of this.

Look, all I know is this. I am Baptist. Baptist never split from the church. Baptist never set out to reform the church. Baptist just went away to worship God and said, "Y'all let us know who wins!".

In my opinion, there simply is no argument over who is right or wrong. Instead, there are different ways to worship a God who is deserving of every praise we can muster. If it be in a Mass, or in a hymn, or in an infant baptism, Praise be to the Lord! Who cares? We are all saved by the grace of God. Whether repentance is a lifelong journey, or is a moment in time, God knows the heart. Whether one prays to Saints or one only prays to Jesus, God knows the heart.

That is it in a nutshell. The division is not of God, but the division may be used by God. In the end, we will be a united Bride. When we all get to Heaven, there is not going to be a Catholic table and a Fundementalist table and a Liberal table. There will only be the Bride making merry with her Bridegroom.

Lisa

Latreia · Feb 26, 2007

Well, OK, Lisa, but can I be the little flower girl? Pleez?

Lisa0315 · Feb 26, 2007

Latreia said:
Well, OK, Lisa, but can I be the little flower girl? Pleez?

You better ask the King. He's got it all planned out to the tiniest detail.

Lisa

IamAdopted · Feb 26, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
Look, all I know is this. I am Baptist. Baptist never split from the church. Baptist never set out to reform the church. Baptist just went away to worship God and said, "Y'all let us know who wins!".

In my opinion, there simply is no argument over who is right or wrong. Instead, there are different ways to worship a God who is deserving of every praise we can muster. If it be in a Mass, or in a hymn, or in an infant baptism, Praise be to the Lord! Who cares? We are all saved by the grace of God. Whether repentance is a lifelong journey, or is a moment in time, God knows the heart. Whether one prays to Saints or one only prays to Jesus, God knows the heart.

That is it in a nutshell. The division is not of God, but the division may be used by God. In the end, we will be a united Bride. When we all get to Heaven, there is not going to be a Catholic table and a Fundementalist table and a Liberal table. There will only be the Bride making merry with her Bridegroom.

Lisa

and I see obeying the word of God and really reading it important to our worship of God. that is why He left us His word.. It is our manuel for how to live a life that is pleasing to God.

Lisa0315 · Feb 26, 2007

IamAdopted said:
and I see obeying the word of God and really reading it important to our worship of God. that is why He left us His word.. It is our manuel for how to live a life that is pleasing to God.

Sure it is. I promise you one thing, though. There is really only two things in the Bible that need to impact us. Love one another and tell others. If you do those two, you will fulfill every law and every command our Lord has given to us.

These disputes, these petty little things are meaningless in the big picture. If we Christians could ever really GET that, and SHOW the world by actions instead of just mouthing it, well, I cannot even hardly imgaine what a different place it would be.

Instead, we bicker over petty little things like, "My church was first, my church is the right one, my way is right, my doctrine is correct, my Bible is the only one" and we forget the commandments of Christ.

Show the love of God in everything we do and the rest will follow.

Lisa

Renton405 · Feb 27, 2007

"ALL NATIONS WILL CALLED ME BLESSED"

we are just doing what the bible said

The Catholic Church giving mary her due respect is actually this prophecy being fullfilled. As we are the ones that truely call Mary blessed(and show it as well)

Mary is very blessed and we portray that to the people.

It is rooted in the Holy Trinity. God, Mary and Jesus are a family. Just like your mother, father and child. They are all linked together thus they portray significance..

Remember sometimes God sends messengers and angels to do his bidding. And we should awknowledge them. St. Michael. St. Gabriel and Raphael should be due all their venerance and respect that Mary should. Does that mean we should worship them? Of course not, only God deserves worship. But there is a difference between respect/veneration than worship.. Do you honor a great general when he dies on the battlefield?? Do you consider that idolism too?? In your definition of it then that also would be idolism.. Do you see how incorrect this thinking is??

It was Mary's choice to bear Christ. And she said yes. She is a very high contributor and vessel to our salvation..Mary is a model of our faith. Her "yes" should be the way our faith is..

And just as usual the prophecy came true. All nations call Mary blessed. The churchs, that is, that give her her due respect..

IamAdopted · Feb 27, 2007

Renton405 said:
"ALL NATIONS WILL CALLED ME BLESSED"

we are just doing what the bible said

The Catholic Church giving mary her due respect is actually this prophecy being fullfilled. As we are the ones that truely call Mary blessed(and show it as well)

Mary is very blessed and we portray that to the people.

It is rooted in the Holy Trinity. God, Mary and Jesus are a family. Just like your mother, father and child. They are all linked together thus they portray significance..

Remember sometimes God sends messengers and angels to do his bidding. And we should awknowledge them. St. Michael. St. Gabriel and Raphael should be due all their venerance and respect that Mary should. Does that mean we should worship them? Of course not, only God deserves worship. But there is a difference between respect/veneration than worship.. Do you honor a great general when he dies on the battlefield?? Do you consider that idolism too?? In your definition of it then that also would be idolism.. Do you see how incorrect this thinking is??

It was Mary's choice to bear Christ. And she said yes. She is a very high contributor and vessel to our salvation..Mary is a model of our faith. Her "yes" should be the way our faith is..

And just as usual the prophecy came true. All nations call Mary blessed. The churchs, that is, that give her her due respect..

I have never said she wasn't blessed.. I just don't exault her..

Lisa0315 · Feb 27, 2007

IamAdopted said:
I have never said she wasn't blessed.. I just don't exault her..

So, what is your argument, then? What is it that you find wrong?

Lisa

IamAdopted · Feb 27, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
So, what is your argument, then? What is it that you find wrong?

Lisa

Exaulting her above all else. Putting her in comparison to Christ.. Things like that..

Lisa0315 · Feb 27, 2007

IamAdopted said:
Exaulting her above all else. Putting her in comparison to Christ.. Things like that..

Well of course that would be wrong. But, who is doing that? Those who practice the co-redemptress doctrine are clearly wrong.

The whole purpose of this thread was to show the difference between veneration and worship. Some draw a very broad line between the two, and others draw a much finer line. So, for those who are borderline between veneration and worship, lets call attention to it and pray that the Holy Spirit will show them the truth.

Mary would not want worship. It actually DISRESPECTS her to come even close to it. However, for those who practice true veneration, there is nothing in Scripture that prohibits it. In fact, there is some support of veneration of those who have gone before us.

In the OT, God often showed mercy for the sake of the person's father even to a whole generation. If God remembers those who have been faithful and have gone on to glory, why cannot we?

Can saints who have gone before us plea before the throne on our behalf? I don't know. I do know that I have experienced something pretty powerful when my grandfather passed. I was not looking for it, and I am as fundemental as they come. Initally, I was very wary of telling any of my fellow Baptists.

The day we buried my grandfather, I prayed that evening like I do every night. I cannot even remember what I prayed, but all of a sudden, I could feel my grandfather right there with me and God. It was as if God was trying to show me that my grandfather was just fine and was with him.

Not too long ago, I had a second "visit" from my grandfather. This time I dreamed about him and the dream was so vivid that I could feel the texture of his overalls and smell him. In the dream, I asked him, "Why didn't you ever tell me you loved me?" He said very surprised, "Because I thought you knew!" He hugged me tightly and told me he loved me very much. I kept asking everyone in the dream if they had seen him and everyone kept telling me, "Lisa, Gray is gone, honey". I kept telling them, "I know. I know, but he was right here. Didn't you see him?" Then, I woke up.

I told my whole family, and my aunt came back to tell me that she had had similar experiences with her mother who had passed a few years ago.

If earthly men know how to give good gifts to their children, how much better gifts will our Heavenly Father give to us?

Lisa

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