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Photini

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This is an exerpt from a book of the teachings of the Pope of the Coptic Church, Pope Shenouda III. I just want to verify that this is also what the Eastern Orthodox hold, and other resources also to look further into this.​
Read the whole book at http://www.stmark-la.com/book.html


PRIMACY OF PETER:​

]The Papists relied on apocryphal books of the second century, the pseudo-Clementines, and imagined with a purpose that the Apostle Peter is the founder of the Roman Church and their first bishop. While the Holy Scripture discusses matters and showed that the Apostle Peter was equal among equals in the apostolic synod of Jerusalem, and at another time is sharply rebuked by the Apostle Paul, as is evident from the Epistle to the Galatians. (GaL 2:11).

Moreover, the Papists themselves know well that the very passage of the Gospel to which the Pontiff refers, "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church", (Matt. 16:18) is in the first centuries of the Church interpreted quite differently, in a spirit of orthodoxy, both by tradition and by all the divine and sacred Fathers without exception; the fundamental and unshaken rock upon which the Lord has built His own Church, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail, being understood metaphorically of Peter's true confession concerning the Lord, that 'He is Christ, the Son of the living God.' (Matt 16:16). Upon this confession and faith the saving preaching of the Gospel by all the apostles and their successors rests unshaken. Whence also the Apostle Paul, who had been caught up into heaven, evidently interpreting this divine passage, declares by divine inspiration, saying: "According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master's builder, I have laid the foundation, and another builds thereon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ," (1 Cor. 3:10,11).

But it is in another sense that Paul calls all the apostles and prophets together the foundation of the building up in Christ of the faithful; that is to say, the members of the body of Christ, which is the Church;" (Col. 1:24) when he writes to the Ephesians: "Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone". (Ephesians 2:19,20; I Peter 2:4; Rev. 21:14)

Such, then, being the divinely inspired teaching of the apostles respecting the foundation and the Prince of the Church of God, of course the sacred Fathers, who held firmly to the apostolic traditions, could not have or conceive any idea of an absolute primacy of the Apostle Peter and the bishops of Rome; nor could they give any other interpretation, totally unknown to the Church, to that passage of the Gospel, but that which was true and right; nor could they arbitrarily and by themselves invent a novel doctrine respecting excessive privileges of the Bishop of Rome as successor, if so be, of Peter; especially while the Church of Rome was chiefly founded, not by Peter, whose apostolic action at Rome is totally unknown to history, but by the heaven-caught apostle of the Gentiles, Paul, through his disciples, whose apostolic ministry in Rome is well known to all. (Acts 28,15; Rom 15:15-16; Phil 1:13)


]1. Who is the greatest?

Then He (Jesus) came to Capernaum. And when He was in the house He asked them, "what was it you disputed among yourselves on the road?" But they kept silent, for on the road they had disputed among themselves who would be the greatest. And He sat down, called the twelve, and said to them, "If anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all" (Mark 9:33-35).

Note here, that Christ did not assign one of the twelve to be their head or superior, but if anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all. This is a new concept for being first, and that is to serve no to be served.

In the gospel of St. Luke chapter 22 verses 24-27 says: "But there was also rivalry among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest. And He (Jesus) said to them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called benefactors. But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves. For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the tables Yet I am among you as the one who serves.

Note here also, Christ did not assign one of the twelve to be first or their superior.


2. Peter confesses Jesus as the Christ:
[When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" So they said: some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets. He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" And Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon BarJonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16. 13-19).
The promise made to Peter has been realized in respect to the whole body of pastors, which proves that Christ only spoke to Peter as representing his colleagues, as being a type of the apostle's body. (The Papacy, page 40, by Abbe Gueftee).

The rock which Christ will build His church on is, "You are the Christ, the Son of God", because it is impossible that our Lord builds His church on someone who eventually will die, and bring His Church to naught!

Jesus Christ has declared that He was Himself, that stone Designated by the prophets. Matthew 21:42 says; Did you never read in the scriptures: the stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone". (Luke 20:17,18) continues; "whoever falls on that stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will crush him."

St. Paul says that Christ was that Rock, in 1Corinthians 10:4; "and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ". St. Peter also teaches the same truth, in his first epistle; "The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone "(I Peter 2:7) (Ps. 118:22), "a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense". (I Peter 2:8).


WHO IS THE ROCK, JESUS or PETER?

a. Build on the Rock: "Therefore whoever hears these saying of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to wise man who built his house on the rock" (Matthew 7:24).

b. Build on the Rock: "But why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do the things which I say? whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock… " (Luke 6:46-48).


3. Sending out the Twelve:

And He, Jesus, called the twelve to him, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them power over unclean spirits, He commanded them to take nothing for the journey except a staff - no bag, no bread, no copper in their money belts - but to wear sandals, and not to put on two tunics" (Mark 6: 7- 9).

Note here: that our Lord did not assign a superior for them, but called all the twelve, and He (Jesus) sent them out.


4. The Denial and Restoration of Peter:

And Simon Peter followed Jesus... and stood at the door outside... then the servant girl who kept the door said to Peter, You are not also one of this Man's disciples, are you? Peter said, "I am not." (John 18:15-1 7). "Peter denied twice more after that" (John 18.25-27) , thus a total of three denials.


Our Lord Jesus restored Peter discipleship back.

So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?" Peter said to Him, "Yes Lord; You know that I love You. Jesus said, Feed my lambs. And this was on three times". (John 21:15-17).

Now, when Peter denied our Lord, he fell from being a follower of our Lord. Now Jesus had to restore the fellowship and discipleship of Peter before giving him the honor of priesthood along with the other disciples.

So Christ Questioned Peter's love for Him, then told him to feed and tender His sheep and lambs, and restored him as a disciple once more by telling him "follow Me," (John 21:19).


5. Priesthood was granted to all disciples:
]
Then Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you. As the Father has sent Me, I also send you. And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit, if you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21-23).


6. The Jerusalem Council was headed by James in the presence of SimonPeter, Paul, Barnabas, and other disciples:

So the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter (conflict over circumcision) and certain men declared that unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved. While Paul and Barnabas declared how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the gentiles.

Then James answered and concluded the Council saying; "Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from meat of strangled animals and from blood." (Acts 15:1-21)

The final word was for James since he was the bishop of Jerusalem and head of the council.

Peter spoke in the council only as a member of the assembly, not even the first, but after many others.

James, Bishop of Jerusalem, summed up the discussion, as the actual president of the assembly, proved the resolution which was adopted, and dated.

The apostles then did not consider St. Peter as the foundation stone of the church. Consequently the papal interpretation of the famous text, "The Petrus," is contrary to Holy Scripture as it is to tradition.


Who established the church of Rome, Peter or Paul?

]A.When they saw that the gospel for the circumcised had been committed to me (Paul) as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter, for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the gentiles. (Galadans 2:7,8).


So Paul was an apostle for the gentiles, while Peter was for the circumcised (Jews).

The Epistle to the Galatians was written between 56-57 A-D which was 16 years after Peter had baptized Cornelius the gentile i.e. 40 AD, and yet still did not consider Peter as the apostle of the gentile, because that incident was once!


The Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans:
]
]Tells us about the responsibility of Paul toward the Romans, whom he served and preached to. A relationship of love and service among many believers in Rome

cont.....)[

 

Photini

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(cont...)
St. Paul’s Ministry in Rome:
"Now when he came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard, but Paul, was permitted to dwell by himself with the soldier who guarded him. And Paul called the leaders of the Jews together…" (Acts 28:16,17) This was in 60 AD, and it seems that they did not know much about Christianity. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own rented house, preaching the kingdom of God and teaching the things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 28:30,31).

In these two years St. Paul was able, through the grace of the Holy Spirit, to establish the church of Rome, and served freely in Rome and other cities till he was martyred during the reign of Nero at 67 AD.

"I have made it my aim to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named. Lest I should build on another man's foundation" (Romans 15:20).

From here we deduce that Peter did not preach or establish the church of Rome, that's why Paul stayed for two years preaching and teaching the matters concerning the kingdom of God and the Lord Jesus Christ.


When did Peter reach Rome?


St. Peter spent most of his ministry in the East. So after he ministered in Judea he went to Antioch, then to Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia.

Thus wrote this epistle to the pilgrims who were dispersed in these areas (1 Peter 1:1).

Although there is not one single verse in the Holy Bible that mentions that St. Peter went to Rome or ministered there, but we know from the holy tradition that Peter was martyred in Rome during Nero's reign in 67 AD or a little earlier.

]
]7. Facts about Peter:


1. Peter was imprisoned in Jerusalem at 44 AD so how was he present in Rome at that time?!


2. Clodius Caesar exiled all the Jews and the Christians from Rome at 45 AD, and the book of Acts made reference to this event (Acts 18:2). So it is again impossible for Peter to be in Rome then.


3. In 50 AD, he attended the apostles council in Jerusalem, so it was impossible for him to be in Rome then.


4. St. Paul wrote to the Romans in 57-58 AD asking to be given a chance to reach them and teach them about God. This is a proof that Peter did not preach the Romans in Rome, otherwise Paul wouldn't have asked to be given a chance to go.

5. In 58 AD when Paul sent his epistle to Rome, he greeted 20 people, and 2 families, and the name of Peter was not among them which means that he (Peter ) was not there at that time.


6. When St. Paul reached Rome at 60 AD, the Book did not tell us that he met with Peter, but rather Paul met the leaders of the Jews.. thus proving that Peter did not preach them with the Lord Jesus.


7. St. Paul stayed in Rome for two years after preaching the Romans, (62/63 AD) meaning that if Peter reached Rome then, the church of Rome was founded, established and was strong by the works of the Holy Spirit and Paul.

8. Therefore we acknowledge what Origen said, that, St. Peter came to Rome before he died, about 65 AD, to chase Simon the sorcerer, who offered money to him (Peter) and John for the power of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:9-24), and Peter was crucified there and died.
8. St. Mark and the Church of Rome: Mark works with Paul:



A. "Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, with Mark the cousin of Barnabas (about whom you received instructions If he comes to you, welcome him, and Jesus who is called Justus. These are my only fellow workers for the kingdom of God who are of the circumcision, they have proved to be a comfort to me (Colossians 4: 10,11). St. Paul was telling the Colossians that Mark was present with him in Rome.


B. "Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, greets you, as do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, Luke, my fellow laborers." (Philemon 1:23,24). Here we see again that Mark was mentioned even before Luke the evangelist, working with St. Paul in establishing the church of Rome.

C. "Only Luke is with me, get Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful to me for ministry." (II Timothy 4:11).

Here, Luke was not enough to serve in Rome, so St. Paul called on Mark specifically to serve with him, and stayed there till Paul was martyred then he returned to Alexandria once more.

Thus, St. Mark and others played a role along with St. Paul who established the church of Rome, not St. Peter

 
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From what I have seen we are. It will take a great synod of Bishops to make that official. I have seen Met ANTHONY of San Francisco commune an Ethopian parish that met in Assumption Greek Orthodox Church in Seattle. When His Holiness Pope Shenouda III came to Seattle a few years ago, the Orthodox greeted him as a great hierarch that he is, and considered him a father in the Lord. His Holiness is a living saint.
Jeff the Finn
 
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Orthodox Andrew

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Photini said:
I think they're the Oriental Orthodox...communion was split I think the the 5th cent (?)...but reunion talks have been seriously taking place I believe.


Yeah, I heard there were talks, but I didn't think that the Coptic Church had rejoined Orthodoxy yet? But maybe I'm just confusing them with the Oriental Church?
 
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Orthodox Andrew

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Thanks for the info.
 
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A Synodal and Patriarchal Letter.

To All Our Children, Protected by God, of the Holy See of Antioch:

Beloved:

You must have heard of the continuous efforts for decades by our Church with the sister Syrian Orthodox Church to foster a better knowledge and understanding of both Churches, whether on the dogmatic or pastoral level. These attempts are nothing but a natural expression that the Orthodox Churches, and especially those within the Holy See of Antioch, are called to articulate the will of the Lord that all may be obey, just as the Son is One with the Heavenly Father (John 10:30).

It is our duty and that of our brothers in the Syrian Orthodox Church to witness to Christ in our Eastern region where He was born, preached, suffered, was buried and rose from the dead, ascended into Heaven, and sent down His Holy and Life Giving Spirit upon His holy Apostles.

All the meetings, the fellowship, the oral and written declarations meant that we belong to One Faith even though history had manifested our division more than the aspects of our unity.

All this has called upon our Holy Synod of Antioch to bear witness to the progress of our Church in the See of Antioch towards unity that preserves for each Church its authentic Oriental heritage whereby the one Antiochian Church benefits from its sister Church and is enriched in its traditions, literature and holy rituals.

Every endeavor and pursuit in the direction of the coming together of the two Churches is based on the conviction that this orientation is from the Holy Spirit, and it will give the Eastern Orthodox image more light and radiance, that it has lacked for centuries before.

Having recognized the efforts done in the direction of unity between the two Churches, and being convinced that this direction was inspired by the Holy Spirit and projects a radiant image of Eastern Christianity overshadowed during centuries, the Holy Synod of the Church of Antioch saw the need to give a concrete expression of the close fellowship between the two Churches, the Syrian Orthodox Church and the Eastern Orthodox for the edification of their faithful.

Thus, the following decisions were taken:

  1. We affirm the total and mutual respect of the spirituality, heritage and Holy Fathers of both Churches. The integrity of both the Byzantine and Syriac liturgies is to be preserved.
  2. The heritage of the Fathers in both Churches and their traditions as a whole should be integrated into Christian education curricula and theological studies. Exchanges of professors and students are to be enhanced.
  3. Both Churches shall refrain from accepting any faithful from accepting any faithful from one Church into the membership of the other, irrespective of all motivations or reasons.
  4. Meetings between the two Churches, at the level of their Synods, according to the will of the two Churches, will be held whenever the need arises.
  5. Every Church will remain the reference and authority for its faithful, pertaining to matters of personal status (marriage, divorce, adoption, etc.).
  6. If bishops of the two Churches participate at a holy baptism or funeral service, the one belonging to the Church of the baptized or deceased will preside. In case of a holy matrimony service, the bishop of the bridegroom's Church will preside.
  7. The above mentioned is not applicable to the concelebration in the Divine Liturgy.
  8. What applies to bishops equally applies to the priests of both Churches.
  9. In localities where there is only one priest, from either Church, he will celebrate services for the faithful of both Churches, including the Divine Liturgy, pastoral duties, and holy matrimony. He will keep an independent record for each Church and transmit that of the sister Church to its authorities.
  10. If two priests of the two Churches happen to be in a locality where there is only one Church, they take turns in making use of its facilities.
  11. If a bishop from one Church and a priest from the sister Church happen to concelebrate a service, the first will preside even when it is the priest's parish.
  12. Ordinations into the holy orders are performed by the authorities of each Church for its own members. It would be advisable to invite the faithful of the sister Church to attend.
  13. Godfathers, godmothers (in baptism) and witnesses in holy matrimony can be chosen from the members of the sister Church.
  14. Both Churches will exchange visits and will co-operate in the various areas of social, cultural and educational work.
    We ask God's help to continue strengthening our relations with the sister Church, and with other Churches, so that we all become one community under one Shepherd.
Damascus
12 November 1991

Patriarch Ignatios IV
of the Greek Antiochian Church

Patriarch Ignatius Zakka Iwas
of the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch
 
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Photini

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Thanks Jeff,
I haven't begun to study much of the history of the early church yet. So when I ran across this article, and maybe a couple of other mentions of the subject, I was kind of surprised, because the CC always claims that Peter was the first bishop of their church. I had no idea that it was actually Paul who first established the church in Rome.
 
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Juice

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Neither Peter or Paul established the Christian Church in Rome. Christianity was brought to Rome by soldiers and merchants. Christianity had a strong community in Rome, even before Paul wrote his Epistle to the Romans.

A very curious point comes up when reading Paul's Epistle to the Romans. He expresses his great love for the Christian community in Rome and expresses his desire to go to Rome. But nowhere in the Epistle does he make reference to Peter. If Peter, had founded the Church of Rome, Paul would of made reference to him. At the same time, he might not have written his Epistle to the Romans if he had known that Peter was in Rome teaching and spreading the Gospel.

Paul came to Rome much earlier that Peter. I too agree that both Peter and Paul were martyred in Rome.

As for Peter's supremacy over the Christian Church passing through him to subsequent Romans, then the same claim can be made by the Antiochian Church which was also established by Peter. Peter, visited and taught the Gospel in Antioch long before he went to Rome. There are several books that were written at the time of what Peter did in Antioch, but none exist about what he did in Rome.

I have posted this link before in another thread. It contains some Greek, but it explains the often misread and misinterpreted Gospel passage when Jesus refers to Peter as the rock upon which he will built his Church.

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/boumis_peter.html

and

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/milton1_2.html

and
http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/milton1_3.html

PS- don't allow this thread to detrioate into Coptic versus Orthodox. Please.
 
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Maximus

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Although I respect Pope Shenouda, I do not agree that what he says about the primacy of St. Peter and the role of the bishops of Rome in the early Church is correct, nor do I believe that it is Orthodox or held as true by all knowledgeable Orthodox Christians.

One must remember that Pope Shenouda, as a leader among the Copts, rejects the Orthodox Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon. It is encumbent upon him to argue against the presidency and authority of the Bishop of Rome, since that presidency is very evident in the records of Chalcedon and the decisions made there. As much as I would like to see the reunion of all professing Apostolic Christians, I must note that anyone who rejects any of the Seven Great Councils of the Church - of which Chalcedon is one - cannot be considered an Orthodox Christian.

The statement that the Fathers saw the "Rock" of Matthew 16:18 solely as St. Peter's confession is incorrect. The fact is that they saw the Rock as both St. Peter himself and his confession.

"He made answer: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build My Church, and I will give thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' Could He not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on His own authority, He gave the kingdom, whom He called the Rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church?" (St. Ambrose of Milan, Expositions of the Catholic Faith. Book IV. Chap. V).

"Our LORD Jesus Christ, as placed the principal charge on the blessed Peter, chief of all the Apostles He wished him who had been received into partnership in His undivided unity to be named what He Himself was, when He said: "Thous art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church": that the building of the eternal temple by the wondrous gift of GOD'S grace might rest on Peter's solid rock: strengthening His Church so surely that neither could human rashness assail it nor the gates of hell prevail against it" (Pope St. Leo the Great, The Great Letters, Letter X).

"In the power of the Holy Spirit Peter also, the chief of the Apostles and the bearer of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, healed Aeneas the paralytic in the Name of Christ at Lydda, which is now Diospolis, and at Joppa raised the dead Tabitha rich in good works" (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, Lecture XVII).

"The Lord is loving unto man, and swift to pardon, but slow to punish. Let no man therefore despair of his own salvation. Peter, the chiefest and foremost of the Apostles, denied the Lord thrice before a little maid: but he repented himself, and wept bitterly" (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, Lecture II).

"Peter alone [among the Apostles] do I find married, and through mention of his mother-in-law. I presume he was a monogamist; for the Church, built upon him, would for the future appoint to every degree of orders none but monogamists. As for the rest, since I do not find them married, I must presume they were either eunuchs or continent" (Tertullian, Monogamy, 8, 4).

"On hearing these words, the blessed Peter, the chosen, the pre-eminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with Himself the Savior paid the tribute, quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? 'Behold, we have left all and followed you!' " (St. Clement of Alexandria, Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved?; 21, 1).

"Peter, upon whom is built the Church of Christ, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail, left only one Epistle of acknowledged genuinity. Let us concede also a second which, however, is doubtful" (Origen, Commentaries on John; 5, 3).

"Look at the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church! And what does He say to him? 'O you of little faith,' He says, 'why did you doubt!' " (Origen, Homilies on Exodus; 5, 4).

"And again He says to him after His resurrection: 'Feed My sheep.' On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were what Peter was; but a primacy was given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair" (St. Cyprian of Carthage, The Unity of the Catholic Church; 4).

There is more, but what I have quoted should balance the scales a bit.

Remember that our Lord and His disciples spoke Aramaic. In Aramaic the name our Lord gave to Simon (St. Peter) was Kepha, which means "Rock." That means that what our Lord said to St. Peter in Matthew 16:18 would have gone like this:

"And I also say to you that you are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."

If one studies the New Testament and notes in the Gospels how many times St. Peter's name is used (and how few times those of the other disciples are used) he might be surprised. Often, when speaking of the disciples, the Gospel writers say, "Peter and those with him."

In the Book of Acts St. Peter is prominent as the spokesman. Although St. Paul is considered to be the pre-eminent Apostle to the Gentiles, the Lord chose St. Peter to first take the Gospel to the Gentiles and thus open the way for St. Paul.

Although I do not believe in papal infallibility or a universal papal monarchy, I do believe that St. Peter and his successors, the bishops of Rome, exercised a kind of presidency among the bishops of the Church. Appeals from all over Christendom were addressed to the Bishop of Rome, who was looked to by all as the leader of Christians.

Just take some time and read the record of the Council of Chalcedon. Note the praise for Pope Leo and his office and the fact that not one of the bishops assembled there disputed what was said.

I think there are two extremes to be avoided in a proper understanding of the role of the Pope of Rome:

  1. The idea that the Pope exercises universal, monarchical power and infallible authority; and
  2. The idea that the Pope is "just one of the boys" among the bishops, with no primacy.
Both notions are incorrect.

IMHO, the proper role of the Bishop of Rome is as the president among the college of the bishops of the Church. I have not finished my study of this, so I cannot give anyone an exact definition of all that the role of Patriarch/President entails, but I do believe it is impossible to study the history of the Church with an open mind and not see that from the first the bishops of Rome were something special amongst all the bishops.

So, yeah, I think Pope Shenouda is wrong in this.
 
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Photini

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Defens0rFidei said:
If you really want to truth, why not ask in the Catholic forum or the IDD where we can defend ourselves?
I am in no position to start getting all the sides at once like that. I am not attacking or anything...I mainly want to understand and become firmly grounded in the doctrines and teachings of my own church before I am confronted with arguments against it.
I have no problem with the honor due to St. Peter, only how that honor is interpreted. Does it really mean that his decendants have lordship and final authority over ALL the churches? I am not convinced of this, as there has yet to be any Scriptural or early Apostolic support of this.

So in short...at this point, I am not concerning myself with the Catholic understanding of the matter, but the Orthodox. I hope you can understand this. I know it is a touchy subject, that is why I really only want the Orthodox teachings for now...

I believe there are already threads in IDD as well as OBOB that hold the CC teachings on this. If I have any questions for you, I will respectfully ask them in OBOB. If we move this to IDD (which I beg the moderators not to do), then all the sudden views from every direction will flood the thread, and I will, in my weakness, become frustrated and learn nothing.
 
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Maximus

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Pardon me for saying it, but that sounds like a Protestant argument.

The Holy Apostolic Tradition of the Church tells us that St. Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. I don't know of any Orthodox scholar who would dispute that.

Saying that "St. Paul would have mentioned him" is speculation at best, and a Sola Scriptura argument at worst.

We know St. Peter went to Rome from the Apostolic Tradition.

Check out 1 Peter 5:13, as well:

"She who is in Babylon, elect together with you, greets you; and so does Mark my son."

It is highly unlikely (impossible, in fact) that St. Peter was in literal Babylon inside the Parthian Empire. Babylon, as used in 1 Peter 5:13, was code among the early Christians for Rome. This is evident also from the Book of Revelation.


Juice: Paul came to Rome much earlier that Peter.
A lot of privates went ashore in the Philippines before MacArthur did. That did not give them primacy there.

The President gave MacArthur that job, just as our Lord Jesus made St. Peter chief of the Apostles.

The problem with what you have asserted is that Church history and the Apostolic Tradition are against it.

St. Peter's authority as the first Bishop of Rome passed to His successors there, not in Antioch.

See my last post.
 
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CopticOrthodox

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The split was in 451 over politics and misunderstandings over the nature of Christ which largely came about because of the use of different languages which lead to misunderstandings. Each Church at least unofficially acknowledges the Orthodoxy of the other, but we still have a ways to go before we can be united again because of a few differences in practice, especially regarding divorce and marriage outside of Orthodoxy. We are of one faith. There is no official intercommunion, but if one goes to the other Church because they have no access to their own, there's a good change they'll be given Communion. There are people on each side who are very set in thier beliefs that the others are heretics and will never listen to thier bishops, which is one of the main obstacles to unity.
 
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