Is there such thing as absolute truth?

That is, actually neither true or false. It is faith.

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So its faith that people believe they are better than sunday keepers? not just sheer arrogance?

Truth is what isn't false. Useless statement, but undeniably true.

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So what is true?

For example I think meat is delicious, which is true to me.
Some people think meat is repulsive, which is true to them.

So am I right or are they?

Hi, fellow travelers, here's my two-cents re absolute truth: would the ten commandments be considered absolute truth?

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Yes and No.

I believe there is such things as absolute laws. (Every sane person things it is wrong to murder, commit adultery and steal)

But since not every one doesnt believe in the Bible or the ten commandments they cant be an absolute truth.


I decided to write down what I am saying (the full content) so here it goes.

(We will call this # 1)

Personal Religious beliefs are based on hypothesises, assumptions etc.
Hypothesises create personal religious beliefs.

Eg. I make an assumption that there is no God.
Therefore God does not exist is true to me.

(#2)

Due to #1 religious beliefs are not absolute.
Since there is no such things as religous beliefs being absolute
Spiritual truths are subjective.

#3

Since #1 and #2 have been shown to be factual
Truth of some religous beliefs may or may not be true, this contention is about absolute truth.


eg. I believe Jesus is the way truth and the life but Jesus is not the absolute truth.
If He was everyone who was seeking the truth would believe He was the truth.
I believe in heaven Jesus will be the absolute truth. But atm He is the truth (to me).

another eg.
A muslim is content with calling Mohammad the blessed prophet - this is a truth to Muslims, but not an absolute truth.


Beliefs are based on evidence.

eg. I look at nature as a beautiful reflection of God. Which I take as evidence for a belief in God. Due to me own subjective evidence I am convicted God created this beautiful world.

Therefore religious truths are based on subjective evidence and conviction.

What do you guys think about that?

Truth regarding matters of fact is fairly easy to determine. I ask "what is 2 + 2 ?" and everyone will say "4". I get agreement so easily because it is an objective matter, not a subjective one. I hold a red cloth up for everyone to see, I ask them what colour it is, they say it is red (if they are able to see it, and if they have the same colour vision as everyone else, and if they have the same definition of red as I do). There may be less agreement here, because already there might be things about the red cloth that some people perceive differently. We are beginning to enter the realm of subjectivity.

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This is a very interesting example which shows we are subjective even with the color we interpret we are seeing.

solja247 said:

So its faith that people believe they are better than sunday keepers? not just sheer arrogance?



So what is true?

For example I think meat is delicious, which is true to me.
Some people think meat is repulsive, which is true to them.

So am I right or are they?

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Yes

Solja, you say that religious truths are based on subjective evidence and conviction, yet you also say that moral laws (i.e., murder, adultery, stealing) are absolute. So I guess that means that moral laws are not religious truths? Hmmm, food for thought.

I am forming the opinion that the ten commandments, if not absolute in themselves, because they can be interpreted culturally, do nevertheless imply some absolute truths. There are at least two absolute laws that I can think of that are reflected in the ten commandments. And they are as absolute as gravity.

1. The law of sin and death. Break any of the ten commandments, and the result is invariably and predictably sin and death.

2. The law of life, keep the ten commandments, and you have life.

The thing is, do we or can we keep the ten commandments? Yikes.

Laodicean said:

I am forming the opinion that the ten commandments, if not absolute in themselves, because they can be interpreted culturally, do nevertheless imply some absolute truths. There are at least two absolute laws that I can think of that are reflected in the ten commandments. And they are as absolute as gravity.

1. The law of sin and death. Break any of the ten commandments, and the result is invariably and predictably sin and death.

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Sis, I'd love to hear you expand on the last sentence. Seems to me the first four only result in inevitable death when a theocrat executes you for breaking them -- as Moses did for the Children of Israel.

But to get that effect now, you immediately have to start spiritualizing away the text of the Ten. And as we've said before, that's no longer following or "keeping" the Ten. So it's not sound to say that breaking the Ten leads to death. It might be more sound to focus on the principles that the Ten shadowed.

I do agree with you that the Decalogue -- like almost all law -- speaks to such larger, brighter principles.

Laodicean said:

1. The law of sin and death. Break any of the ten commandments,
and the result is invariably and predictably sin and death.

2. The law of life, keep the ten commandments, and you have life.

The thing is, do we or can we keep the ten commandments? Yikes.

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Truth is understanding human nature's inability to perform/keep the 10...

...Ps 116:11 'all men are liars', liars in comparrison to ONE who is spotlessly pure!

AzA said:

Sis, I'd love to hear you expand on the last sentence. Seems to me the first four only result in inevitable death when a theocrat executes you for breaking them -- as Moses did for the Children of Israel.

But to get that effect now, you immediately have to start spiritualizing away the text of the Ten. And as we've said before, that's no longer following or "keeping" the Ten. So it's not sound to say that breaking the Ten leads to death. It might be more sound to focus on the principles that the Ten shadowed.

I do agree with you that the Decalogue -- like almost all law -- speaks to such larger, brighter principles.

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AzA, by "the last sentence," I guess you mean where I said that if we break any of the Ten and the law of sin and death kicks in? I don't think it's a case of a Theocrat executing you if you break the first four. It is not some arbitrary punishment that follows a turning away from God, but a law of physics. Unplug yourself from the source of life and the result is death. Therefore, the law of sin and death is not a punishment for sin, but a consequence of sin. And what is sin? Not individual acts, but a turning away from (distrusting) God.

I agree with you that we cannot (any longer) say that breaking the law leads to death. We are already in death mode, a condition handed down genetically to us from our ancestors. From the moment of conception/birth, we begin the dying process -- the 2nd law of thermodynamics in motion.

At least that is how I understand it. Does this make sense? Your thoughts?

I understand the point about what would happen if one could unplug oneself from the Lifesource/Lifeforce. I often make this point myself!

You invoked the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics -- does that mean you think humans are closed systems?

I don't know that I'd describe us as closed.
I'd be more likely to describe us as open not least because we are constantly, constantly exchanging energy and information with our environment.

That we die is obvious; but all lifeforms go through cycles in which some aspect of their form degrades and either regenerates or changes form. The energy underlying all that appears to be constant, but the forms change. After a "death," then there is a period of stillness, and then life kicks in again. Winter, then spring.

(I have a bias towards spring. I also have a fairly loose attachment to my body, for personal reasons.)

I still think it's important to distinguish between "The Ten Commandments as eternal" and "The Ten Commandments as temporal expressions of eternal concepts." I also think it's useful to avoid picking pieces out of the Ten Commandments and calling those pieces The Ten Commandments. It's a whole in its own right as a local construct. Changing it in any substantive way changes it into something else entirely.

It is an absolute truth that motion occurs. However to one man, motion may appear to be going away from him, to another motion may be coming toward him.

It is an absolute truth that the sun shines. However, one man may say the sun is bright today while another would say, "Bright? This isn't bright. You haven't seen anything."

AzA said:

I understand the point about what would happen if one could unplug oneself from the Lifesource/Lifeforce. I often make this point myself!

You invoked the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics -- does that mean you think humans are closed systems?

I don't know that I'd describe us as closed.
I'd be more likely to describe us as open not least because we are constantly, constantly exchanging energy and information with our environment.

That we die is obvious; but all lifeforms go through cycles in which some aspect of their form degrades and either regenerates or changes form. The energy underlying all that appears to be constant, but the forms change. After a "death," then there is a period of stillness, and then life kicks in again. Winter, then spring.

(I have a bias towards spring. I also have a fairly loose attachment to my body, for personal reasons.)

I still think it's important to distinguish between "The Ten Commandments as eternal" and "The Ten Commandments as temporal expressions of eternal concepts." I also think it's useful to avoid picking pieces out of the Ten Commandments and calling those pieces The Ten Commandments. It's a whole in its own right as a local construct. Changing it in any substantive way changes it into something else entirely.

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AzA,

The law spoken at Mt.Sinai was an expansion (using more words) of the principle of restraint/circumcision/cross given in the garden toward one object.

The working spiritual essence of this principle was summed in the presentation to a religiously idolatrous and greedy people that they should not "covet." This cut against that spirit that held them in bondage in Egypt. When the living testimony of God cut them to the quick they could stand no more, just like the people to whom God spoke through the testimony he put into the mouth of Stephen. The leaders of the Sanhedrin's counsel were cut to the quick and they could endure no more. They put their fingers in their ears and gnashed their teeth, like the people at Mt. Sinai when the Lord touched their fleshly desire of covetousness.

Thus, Paul, in Romans 7, witnessing to the law, simply quoted the last restraint, which summed it all. In a nutshell this is what James is speaking in his letter to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. James is given to employ a good deal of reasoning before getting to the point of their greed.

When our Lord Jesus finally came to this question of the greed of the system in which the leaders operated, then the Pharisee's gave in to the desires of the Saduccees, who ruled the high priests chair, and the Sanhedrin.

Our greed is the last question of sin which our Lord deals with us personally. This the judgment bar of God in Christ Jesus.

"He who seeks to save his life, shall lose it."

Joe

Joe67 said:

The law spoken at Mt.Sinai was an expansion (using more words) of the principle of restraint/circumcision/cross given in the garden toward one object.

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It looks like we all agree that the Sinai law, including the Ten, referenced larger principles than might be evident from a surface reading of the text.

AzA said:

It looks like we all agree that the Sinai law, including the Ten, referenced larger principles than might be evident from a surface reading of the text.

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AzA,

Yes. The message in Revelation, that the spirit is calling us to hear and see and understand, reinforces that the form of words in the text is just the beginning; yet the spirit of the text does not lift up its heel against the text.

Joe

The record sheds light upon this quest.

Deut 32:8-9
8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

9 For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. KJV

God's elect servant is his portion and the inheritance gives the name more authority than one without a birthright. But this is an authority to serve those who are not given a birthright. Authority to bless those who curse us and authority to pray for those who talk with us the way Job's 3 friends talked with him. Then God will speak with them and they will be brought into the way of the sacrifice.

This is the perfect/absolute truth of God in God's sacrifice, Jesus the Christ, our Lord. This is God's sabbath rest. He has provided for us to dwell under the shadow of this Tree, by faith, not by the works of the law.

Heb 4:9-11
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. KJV

Rev 12:10-11
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. KJV

Rev 14:12-13
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. KJV

Read the story of the event of Mt. Sinai. When they heard the words they felt like they were dying and they drew back from this feeling. Moses trembled at the words of the Lord. The people were little children in their experience in the Lord. The Lord's way of delivering us from sin and unbelief is through that communication with us whereby we feel like we are dying. As he brings us through that experience and revives us, then he teaches us like he did the apostles, the things concerning his sufferings from Moses and the Psalms and the prophets.

Then we "rejoice that we are counted worthy to suffer shame for Jesus' name." Acts 5:41. Herein is absolute truth. This is the living sabbath rest. Nothing else counts apart from this experience.

Joe

Joe67 said:

Yes. The message in Revelation, that the spirit is calling us to hear and see and understand, reinforces that the form of words in the text is just the beginning; yet the spirit of the text does not lift up its heel against the text.

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Sure. Yet when the forms are mistaken for the spirit, amplifying the spirit always causes offense.

AzA said:

Sure. Yet when the forms are mistaken for the spirit, amplifying the spirit always causes offense.

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AzA,

Truly,truly, and then is fulfilled the purpose of God the Father, in his grace, as witnessed in Gal 4:29-31:
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. KJV

That the grace of God might be revealed in us toward the children of the bondwoman:
Matt 5:44-45
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. KJV

Rom 12:14,20,21
14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. KJV

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. KJV

Job prayed for his 3 friends (tormentors) and then Job's captivity was turned.

Joe

Why are we chasing "absolute truth" again? Once its found the purpose would be what?

I do believe there is such a thing as absolute truth. John 17:17 tells us `God's word is truth.

And again, 1 Thessalonians 2:13 says " For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe."

MLEN said:

I do believe there is such a thing as absolute truth. John 17:17 tells us `God's word is truth.

And again, 1 Thessalonians 2:13 says " For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe."

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and God's word would be what in your opinion?

StormyOne said:

and God's word would be what in your opinion?

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IMO, his word would be what he proclaims (whether written, spoken, illustrated or put forth in anyway by him).