Is there such thing as absolute truth?

solja247 · Jan 29, 2010

During my short life. I have learnt that life is rarely black and white, but is in shades of grey.

Growing up in the church I believed it was in black and white. SDA only has the truth. SDA is God's church. Sabbath keepers are better than sunday keepers.

My question is what is truth?

I believe Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Yet a Muslim or Jew will say no.

I believe in creation through science, logic and faith, yet when I ask an athiest or theistic evolutionist they say that evolution is truth.

Its the same with everything.

For example. Pentecostals, with their 'speaking in tounges' if you follow their path of logic it appears to be logical...

So is there such thing as absolute truth?

(I would like to keep this discussion very logical)

BigRedBus · Jan 29, 2010

Hi solja247,

Welcome to the forum.

You have asked a short but extremely significant question, and I like the clear uncluttered way in which you asked it. It is a question that has kept philosophers debating for thousands of years, so I don't think we will solve it here. And though you'd like to keep the debate logical, I am not sure logic will lead you to the answer since one person's logic might be different from another's. It will lead you to an answer but not necessarily the answer. And you could be surprised at the range of answers you get from a forum that’s almost entirely made up of current Adventists and where you might have expected some uniformity of thought. But having raised those doubts, let me have a go at giving my view of the answer.

Truth regarding matters of fact is fairly easy to determine. I ask "what is 2 + 2 ?" and everyone will say "4". I get agreement so easily because it is an objective matter, not a subjective one. I hold a red cloth up for everyone to see, I ask them what colour it is, they say it is red (if they are able to see it, and if they have the same colour vision as everyone else, and if they have the same definition of red as I do). There may be less agreement here, because already there might be things about the red cloth that some people perceive differently. We are beginning to enter the realm of subjectivity.

As we go further into subjectivity, opinions will diverge ever more. Once you start discussing something as ethereal as religion, the “right answer” fragments into many, because everyone sees the truth differently. And because they all see it differently, it becomes complex and multi faceted, not a simple thing any more. In a way, you admitted yourself that you may not be expecting an answer. You said in your OP that life isn’t seen so much in black, or white, as shades of grey.

I posted this back in late September 2009, as part of a different thread. It still won't answer your question, but I hope it will explain my own thought processes:
I have no doubt whatsoever that "the truth" exists, but I think it comes in many forms and this is what complicates the debate. It is not "the truth" so much as "a truth". I will see it differently from a Buddhist, for example. Our truths are equally valid, they just come from different perspectives. You could use the Bible to compare versions of the truth, but that's only going to get you anywhere in absolute terms if there is universal acceptance of the Bible as being permanently infallible. In world terms that is very much a minority view.

Adventtruth · Jan 29, 2010

The minute some says there is no absolute truth, they have just implied there is absolute truth by that statement. Think about it.

AT

Byfaithalone1 · Jan 29, 2010

solja247 said:
During my short life. I have learnt that life is rarely black and white, but is in shades of grey.

Growing up in the church I believed it was in black and white. SDA only has the truth. SDA is God's church. Sabbath keepers are better than sunday keepers.

My question is what is truth?

I believe Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Yet a Muslim or Jew will say no.

I believe in creation through science, logic and faith, yet when I ask an athiest or theistic evolutionist they say that evolution is truth.

Its the same with everything.

For example. Pentecostals, with their 'speaking in tounges' if you follow their path of logic it appears to be logical...

So is there such thing as absolute truth?

(I would like to keep this discussion very logical)

Although I believe that there is truth, I also believe there are none who understand it.

BFA

rosenherman · Jan 29, 2010

solja247 said:
During my short life. I have learnt that life is rarely black and white, but is in shades of grey.

Growing up in the church I believed it was in black and white. SDA only has the truth. SDA is God's church. Sabbath keepers are better than sunday keepers.

That is, actually neither true or false. It is faith.

solja247 said:
My question is what is truth?

Truth is what isn't false. Useless statement, but undeniably true.

solja247 said:
I believe Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Yet a Muslim or Jew will say no.

Once again. Neither true or false. It is faith. I also believe that Jesus is the way and the truth. Notice we both say "believe", neither says He is.

solja247 said:
I believe in creation through science, logic and faith, yet when I ask an athiest or theistic evolutionist they say that evolution is truth.

The only thing about creation that is absolutely true it that it happened.

solja247 said:
Its the same with everything.

For example. Pentecostals, with their 'speaking in tounges' if you follow their path of logic it appears to be logical...

Speaking in tongues is something some people believe is a gift of Holy Spirit. It undoubtedly happens, however is what we are witnessing truly speaking in tongues or is it someone who wants to be seen as having that gift?

solja247 said:
So is there such thing as absolute truth?

Yes there is. There is absolute truth. The problem lies in defining it so that everyone agrees on its definition.

Avonia · Jan 29, 2010

rosenherman said:
Truth is what isn't false. Useless statement, but undeniably true.

Hi Rosenherman!

The dharma master Nagarjuna (Buddhist) speaks of a progressive four-level system:

1. True
2. Not True
3. Both True and Not True
4. Neither True nor Not True

In Buddhist teachings, "neither True nor Not True" is the most enlightened of the four.

I thought it was rather interesting.

Max3k · Jan 29, 2010

Jesus is the Truth.

Avonia · Jan 29, 2010

Max3k said:
Jesus is the Truth.

Gravity is true.

rosenherman · Jan 29, 2010

Avonia said:
Gravity is true.

Heavy, man heavy.

Avonia · Jan 29, 2010

rosenherman said:
Heavy, man heavy.

AzA · Jan 29, 2010

solja247 said:
My question is what is truth?

I understand "truth" as "reality" -- and it gets awkward from there.

I am real, you are real, the sun is real, my dreams are real, my consciousness is also real. And everything is mediated through one or other kind of perception and framing.

At present I would argue that there is no unmediated knowing because such would blow our mental circuits. With a finite processing system there must be a means of filtering all the levels of information that approach us.

In terms of religious/spiritual subject matter one of the best filters is story.

Story is like a time-release capsule. You have the gel coating on the outside that gets it past the mouth and throat if someone sits to listen. And then you have the interior that will slowly break down as you digest it. And then you absorb it... it filters through your system and begins to interact with one part or another part.

I love stories for this reason. Whoever has ears to hear the truth in the story does. When it is time for them to absorb they do. Until then it's just a pill in a bottle.

rosenherman · Jan 30, 2010

AzA said:
Story is like a time-release capsule. You have the gel coating on the outside that gets it past the mouth and throat if someone sits to listen. And then you have the interior that will slowly break down as you digest it. And then you absorb it... it filters through your system and begins to interact with one part or another part.

I love stories for this reason. Whoever has ears to hear the truth in the story does. When it is time for them to absorb they do. Until then it's just a pill in a bottle.

Beautiful!!!

Laodicean · Jan 30, 2010

Hi, fellow travelers, here's my two-cents re absolute truth: would the ten commandments be considered absolute truth? Are there more ways than one to interpret them? If so, maybe they are not absolute after all? I would be interested to know, for instance, if there are many ways to interpret, say, "Do not covet" or if there is only one way that command can be understood.

StormyOne · Jan 30, 2010

Laodicean said:
Hi, fellow travelers, here's my two-cents re absolute truth: would the ten commandments be considered absolute truth? Are there more ways than one to interpret them? If so, maybe they are not absolute after all? I would be interested to know, for instance, if there are many ways to interpret, say, "Do not covet" or if there is only one way that command can be understood.

Exo 20:17

You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male slave, or his slave-girl, or his ox, or his ass, or anything which belongs to your neighbor.

The command seems to address what a male is suppose to do.... is it okay for the wife to covet the neighbor's husband? Seems like the wife can do whatever.... that would be another interpretation....

Avonia · Jan 30, 2010

AzA said:
At present I would argue that there is no unmediated knowing because such would blow our mental circuits. With a finite processing system there must be a means of filtering all the levels of information that approach us.

You got it. Super sage, AzA! In a partially mediated way - of course.

The Penitent Man · Jan 30, 2010

Absolute or Objective Truths are found in nature. The principles of the natural world are the only absolute truths because they don't rely on any human thoughts or beliefs.

There is no absolute truth in philosophy. Religion counts as philosophy.

StormyOne · Jan 30, 2010

The Penitent Man said:
Absolute or Objective Truths are found in nature. The principles of the natural world are the only absolute truths because they don't rely on any human thoughts or beliefs.

There is no absolute truth in philosophy. Religion counts as philosophy.

interesting... I think I like that.... thanks for sharing...

Avonia · Jan 30, 2010

The Penitent Man said:
Absolute or Objective Truths are found in nature. The principles of the natural world are the only absolute truths because they don't rely on any human thoughts or beliefs.

Nice way of saying it.

Laodicean · Jan 30, 2010

StormyOne said:
Exo 20:17

The command seems to address what a male is suppose to do.... is it okay for the wife to covet the neighbor's husband? Seems like the wife can do whatever.... that would be another interpretation....

StormyOne, actually I had taken the command out of its cultural setting and was focusing only on the general principle of Do Not Covet (which I suppose can be reduced even further to Love Your Neighbor, of which Do Not Covet is one explanation of how to love). So unless the idea is that we should discard the ten commandments because they were meant for a particular time in history only, then we're still left to address the principle of Do Not Covet.

So the question again is: Are there many ways to interpret the command of Do Not Covet? And if not, would that command reflect an absolute truth? And if it does, then what is that absolute truth?

And, hey, I don't have an answer yet. I'm feeling my way as we go....

AzA · Jan 30, 2010

Laodicean said:
...would the ten commandments be considered absolute truth? Are there more ways than one to interpret them? If so, maybe they are not absolute after all? I would be interested to know, for instance, if there are many ways to interpret, say, "Do not covet" or if there is only one way that command can be understood.

Laodicean said:
StormyOne, actually I had taken the command out of its cultural setting and was focusing only on the general principle of Do Not Covet (which I suppose can be reduced even further to Love Your Neighbor, of which Do Not Covet is one explanation of how to love).

But the minute you've plucked it out of context, it's no longer The Ten Commandments. It's something else.
Something which, I guess we're supposing, might be a universal principle.

Anybody have neighbors on Jupiter? Do angels experience lack in the presence of God? We don't know. If not, we'd definitely have to reduce "do not covet" further still. The furthest reduction takes us closer to the universal.

The universal only tells us about what's common through creation. The local laws tell us more about our context right here in this moment.

Is there such thing as absolute truth?

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