Is there such a thing as a Christian homosexual?

Shane Roach said:

I have never said the temptation to homosexual sin was sin itself. No temptation is sin, else Christ being tempted would be sin. As for the idea that there would be no contraversy if it were clear, that is not true. The Bible says there will absolutely be controversy's invented and false teachings invading the church.

It makes no sense to imply that just because you or some other group of people refuse to accept something that is stated clearly that there is therefore doubt, and therefore since ther is doubt you are right.

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no doubt, or resonable doubt? Where in scripture does it say that homosexuality is one of the worst sins?

mpshiel said:

Shane, honestly, I just don't get it. Why do you care so much? I know you have mentioned that you don't want new teaching brought in without examination. But from your replies it seems evident that you have examined, and examined and examined it and come to a firm conclusion. So be it. Why do you then continue to hammer away at it? Do you really think that those who feel that they can be a homosexual and a Christian are going to change? Do you even want them to change? What is it that you want?

The short arguement is this: If the Spirit of God is with a person, then God is there. As Peter was told regarding laws he KNEW where right in Act 10:14-15 - "What God has cleaned call not common (or unclean)."

I would also ask you, if there is no sin in being gay, or thinking gay then where exactly is the sin? I am married. Now you may not accept that, yet for decades American Christian slaves "married" by jumping the broom - were they living in sin? But my question is, when and where is the sin? Is it that I live in the same house with someone I love? Or is it in a kiss? Or a pat as I go by? Or a hug? A cuddle? A glance? The nature of sin is that it is not abstract but can be defined. You have spoken about those who unrepentantly live a homosexual lifestyle - please be blunt - what is the sin in a homosexual lifestyle?

And just out of curiousity - do you think masturbation is a sin?

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Since I have changed my mind about things in the past, yes, I would expect some percentage of people who have an idea, when they find out it is a false one, would change their minds. In fact, I find the whole idea that people should just never change their minds to be silly. People change their minds all the time. Why should that always only be away from the Bible's teaching and not sometimes towards it?

God never called homosexuality clean, so the point about clean foods and the like is moot. The Bible tells us to obey civil laws, so that covers things like theft and murder. The Bible teaches us sexual immorality is the one thing that Christians are still to abstain from. Why then do you begin to modify this? So far all I hear is because homosexuals are that way without any recourse, and that is demostrably untrue if there is any free will because we see identical twins where though the genetic predisposition may be very strong, close to half are still able to find a way to llive a normal lifestyle. So I am waiting to hear something new on that front, and never is it presented.

I imagine, like other sins, the turning point between temptation and sin is still in the mind, but certainly by the time there has been sufficient physical contact to cause physical arousal, or if the arousal was already there and one goes on towards physical contact, that is an outward expression of the sin that was in the mind to begin with. Basically, the intention to give in to sin if the opportunity presents itself is the sin. The intetion to have homosexual relations then is the point at which it becomes sin. I'm not really sure why it even matters. The point is, so far you can provide nothing concrete to tie all the verses relating to this to idolatry or anything else, you simply repeat over and over that you have doubts brought on by the idea that it might be related to idolatry and it might be that some percentage of people can't help it. This sort of argumentation could be applied to every behavior, and indeed is, as some believe we have no free will and some believe we do have it. So the point about free will even is moot.

Why do I care so much? First off, why does that matter? Second, I have already said because I think the constant litany of doubt makes it possible for a new Christian to be convinced to do things that they will later regret, and just because you say you wouldn't be doing this if you thought there was any harm in it doesn't mean you are correct. Why are you so concerned? It's something of an irrelevant question to me.

razzelflabben said:

no doubt, or resonable doubt? Where in scripture does it say that homosexuality is one of the worst sins?

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I dare say every verse that mentions a homosexual act has been posted here. Where does it say that the only reason it is mentioned is because it is related to idolatry?

This sort of argumentation is a waste of time. Everyone who discusses this subject knows the Bible mentions homosexuality, and despite you not being able to demonstrate that it is not a sin, you continue to ask for more proof. I have pointed out the problem that the verses that mention homosexuality do not exculsively mention or refer to idolatry, and yet you still ask for more proof? What am I to take from that attitude of yours? Your entire argument stems from causing doubt and disputing words. Indeed, without the reference back to some words you can fuss over, you have nothing left but to accuse people of being judgemental falsely or try to drag the discussion back to the words again. You are free to go back and dredge up ever single one of the references to homosexuality and deconstruct them one by one again, and I will again ask you how you get the idea that they are all releated to idolatry, and you will again tell me that since there is doubt, it is up to me to get rid of the doubt or else you are right and I am judgemental. This is a false argument on its face. Answer my quesions and if you have a good answer, maybe I will change my mind. For now, I don't have a clue where all this doubt comes from.

Shane Roach said:

God never called homosexuality clean, so the point about clean foods and the like is moot. The Bible tells us to obey civil laws, so that covers things like theft and murder. The Bible teaches us sexual immorality is the one thing that Christians are still to abstain from. Why then do you begin to modify this? So far all I hear is because homosexuals are that way without any recourse, and that is demostrably untrue if there is any choice because we see identical twins where though the genetic predisposition may be very strone, close to half are still able to find a way to llive a normal lifestyle. So I am waiting to hear something new on that front, and never is it presented.

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Hi, Shane Roach I just want you to clarify somethings. Firstly you are speaking about twin and genetic predisposition, can you tell me what the predisposition is to and your definition of a normal lifestyle. Also may I add that genetic predisposition, does not alway result in the expression of the said predisposition. Maybe I am speaking to the converted here lol, Blessings.

Fejao x

Shane Roach said:

The point is, so far you can provide nothing concrete to tie all the verses relating to this to idolatry or anything else, you simply repeat over and over that you have doubts brought on by the idea that it might[/] be related to idolatry and it might be that some percentage of people can't help it. This sort of argumentation could be applied to every behavior, and indeed is, as some believe we have no free will and some believe we do have it. So the point about free will even is moot.

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I have to disagree with you on the point that no evidence has been presented to date to tie up all the verses. I think the information has been presented time and time again and on previous threads, as has the information against homosexuality. However what we see is both side ignoring each others presented information. I think this is the truth of our situation, Blessings.

Fejao x x

fejao said:

I have to disagree with you on the point that no evidence has been presented to date to tie up all the verses. I think the information has been presented time and time again and on previous threads, as has the information against homosexuality. However what we see is both side ignoring each others presented information. I think this is the truth of our situation, Blessings.

Fejao x x

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On the contrary, I have asked specific questions about why verses which do not mention idolatry at all are supposed to still refer to idolatry, and also specific questions about questions you raise about the interpretation of specific words. I have listened to and gone over the verses in detail and have yet to have answers presented to me. Rather, what continues to happen is that I am asked to present the verses again which seems to have the result that your side is given the opportunity to repost their arguments, I ask my questions about those arguments, and then the conversation stops untill at some future point that cycle repeats itself.

There are several of the references to homosexuality that have no reference at all to idolatry, and all of the supposed problems with the words have been addressed. This now becomes a question of discipline. If people continue to make excuses for their sin, the Bible clearly instructs us not to have fellowship with that person, so people saying gays should not be in the church are not being judgemental, they are obeying the teachings of the apostles.

fejao said:

Hi, Shane Roach I just want you to clarify somethings. Firstly you are speaking about twin and genetic predisposition, can you tell me what the predisposition is to and your definition of a normal lifestyle. Also may I add that genetic predisposition, does not alway result in the expression of the said predisposition. Maybe I am speaking to the converted here lol, Blessings.

Fejao x

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Probably you are. The questions are 1: Is there any free will, and 2: if there's not, what does that imply for Christians? There are Christians who believe that salvation at least is predestined. Indeed, I am one of those. So to me, the Bible makes it pretty clear then that choice is not the only thing operating here. To an extent, our behavior is only a sign to us regarding other things God is doing. The entire concept is a diffucult one.

I have only ever had the opportunity to talk with one person who was educated about genetics about this subject. He is an atheist and a decidedly liberal fellow. What he told me was that the idea that homosexuality was genetically determined was not only not proven, but probably likely to be a false one. His support for homosexual marriage was on the grounds of civil liberties, and his support for gays joining churches was that he thought it was good medicine for the church and would likely cause further weakening of the church as more and more religious teachings are proven to be to no benefit. Obviously, on a lot of levels, his views and yours will not mesh. But the point about genetics seems to be nearly universally understood on both sides, with I think perhaps on my side that, even if science thought that genetics plus some level of nurture triggers the homosexual tendency totally outside the homosexual's ability to control, I would still argue that the Spirit of God can change anything. Ultimately, it is a lot like the creation argument. I am aware of a lot of difficulties with Creation, but the fact is, if God did it, He did it, and the rest is just a series of mistakes by man. It doesn't mean God lied if the world looks a certain way and men take it to mean certain things, because God never said, "Look for Truth in the fossile of the earth" or some such.

I am not a hard core young earth creationist though. I have at least one question about Genesis that I can not get an answer for either from creationists or atheists having to do with the significance of the 4 rivers mentioned and whether or not they can all be located, and if not, why?

At the root, I simply reserve the right to believe that God can do anything.

Shane Roach said:

On the contrary, I have asked specific questions about why verses which do not mention idolatry at all are supposed to still refer to idolatry, and also specific questions about questions you raise about the interpretation of specific words. I have listened to and gone over the verses in detail and have yet to have answers presented to me. Rather, what continues to happen is that I am asked to present the verses again which seems to have the result that your side is given the opportunity to repost their arguments, I ask my questions about those arguments, and then the conversation stops untill at some future point that cycle repeats itself.

There are several of the references to homosexuality that have no reference at all to idolatry, and all of the supposed problems with the words have been addressed. This now becomes a question of discipline. If people continue to make excuses for their sin, the Bible clearly instructs us not to have fellowship with that person, so people saying gays should not be in the church are not being judgemental, they are obeying the teachings of the apostles.

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Well I am afraid I have to disagree with you still on this issue, I still believe as per my previous post. Also I think if you do enough searing on the internet and do some further reading, the general bible basis of vindication of gay people can be learnt, about the specific verses you speak of. However you keep pointing to the sin of the people, however there are many who do not see homosexuality as a sin, therefore it does not need addressed in their lives, meaning there are no excuses needed.

Also if I am correct you have stated a few times about how christians should not fellowship with sinners and therefore gay people who believe being gay is okay is within this category. You are quite correct in this statement if this is your position, fine.


Fejao x

fejao said:

Well I am afraid I have to disagree with you still on this issue, I still believe as per my previous post. Also I think if you do enough searing on the internet and do some further reading, the general bible basis of vindication of gay people can be learnt, about the specific verses you speak of. However you keep pointing to the sin of the people, however there are many who do not see homosexuality as a sin, therefore it does not need addressed in their lives, meaning there are no excuses needed.

Also if I am correct you have stated a few times about how christians should not fellowship with sinners and therefore gay people who believe being gay is okay is within this category. You are quite correct in this statement if this is your position, fine.


Fejao x

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With the caveat that I never said fellowship with 'sinners', I have repeatedly said with unrepentant sinners. We all sin, as far as I understand.

Shane Roach said:

Probably you are. The questions are 1: Is there any free will, and 2: if there's not, what does that imply for Christians? There are Christians who believe that salvation at least is predestined. Indeed, I am one of those. So to me, the Bible makes it pretty clear then that choice is not the only thing operating here. To an extent, our behavior is only a sign to us regarding other things God is doing. The entire concept is a diffucult one.

I have only ever had the opportunity to talk with one person who was educated about genetics about this subject. He is an atheist and a decidedly liberal fellow. What he told me was that the idea that homosexuality was genetically determined was not only not proven, but probably likely to be a false one. His support for homosexual marriage was on the grounds of civil liberties, and his support for gays joining churches was that he thought it was good medicine for the church and would likely cause further weakening of the church as more and more religious teachings are proven to be to no benefit. Obviously, on a lot of levels, his views and yours will not mesh. But the point about genetics seems to be nearly universally understood on both sides, with I think perhaps on my side that, even if science thought that genetics plus some level of nurture triggers the homosexual tendency totally outside the homosexual's ability to control, I would still argue that the Spirit of God can change anything. Ultimately, it is a lot like the creation argument. I am aware of a lot of difficulties with Creation, but the fact is, if God did it, He did it, and the rest is just a series of mistakes by man. It doesn't mean God lied if the world looks a certain way and men take it to mean certain things, because God never said, "Look for Truth in the fossile of the earth" or some such.

I am not a hard core young earth creationist though. I have at least one question about Genesis that I can not get an answer for either from creationists or atheists having to do with the significance of the 4 rivers mentioned and whether or not they can all be located, and if not, why?

At the root, I simply reserve the right to believe that God can do anything.

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You are quite correct that it has not been proven. However there is much information that does point to homosexuality being a combination of genetic, biological and external factors. Now if these studies are correct and it shown that homosexuality is something that is not chosen, are you saying that you would still stand on your position? I thought sin was something that is chosen? Also repentance is a decision to not have anything to do with the said sin, therefore to condem homosexuals like this is unjust no, cause they did not choose to be homosexual and the track record of people going straight does not have any credible foundation? You are correct that God can change homosexuals, however as I have said time and time again, what he does do and what he can do are two different things. As someone said here I think, God could turn me into a Giraffe, but he does'nt. I thought I would respond to you brother, nice speaking to you as always, must dash to church. God Bless you abundantly.

Fejao x

Shane Roach said:

With the caveat that I never said fellowship with 'sinners', I have repeatedly said with unrepentant sinners. We all sin, as far as I understand.

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This is the implication of my post, in that you would see homosexuals who see homosexuality as okay as unrepentant sinners, sorry if that was not clear, Blessings.

Fejao x

Ah, ok gotcha.

fejao said:

You are quite correct that it has not been proven. However there is much information that does point to homosexuality being a combination of genetic, biological and external factors. Now if these studies are correct and it shown that homosexuality is something that is not chosen, are you saying that you would still stand on your position? I thought sin was something that is chosen? Also repentance is a decision to not have anything to do with the said sin, therefore to condem homosexuals like this is unjust no, cause they did not choose to be homosexual and the track record of people going straight does not have any credible foundation? You are correct that God can change homosexuals, however as I have said time and time again, what he does do and what he can do are two different things. As someone said here I think, God could turn me into a Giraffe, but he does'nt. I thought I would respond to you brother, nice speaking to you as always, must dash to church. God Bless you abundantly.

Fejao x

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I think that it is possible that the only real choice we have in life is for God or against Him. I think that because of multiple verses relating to the predestination of the elect and so forth. It is not a hard and fast belief. I also believe in free will because I just see myself as having it. How does one believe in free will and predestiny at the same time? Possibly the same way one believes the behavior of light as studied in quantum electrodynamics. Many people describe quantum physics as "counter-intuitive", but to me I think it's just that people tend to hold on to preconcieved notions far after the time when the preconception has been demonstrated to be wrong. Ultimately, whatever is, is. It's up to the person to adjust their beliefs, not for reality to adjust to the person. I guess that makes me a rabid objectivist, if that's a word.

Sin could well be just an outward sign of inward rejection of God's authority. God controlled Pharoah for example. And there is a verse that says, in effect, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and whom I will I harden." And there is an explanation for that as well. If you're not familair with it I can post it, but right now I am just throwing ideas out to see where you are on the subject.

Happy churching.

Shane Roach said:

I dare say every verse that mentions a homosexual act has been posted here. Where does it say that the only reason it is mentioned is because it is related to idolatry?

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When did I every say that it was related in any way to idolatry? Don't recall that one but since this isn't the first time on this thread that I have been accused of saying things I did not say, I will simply ask you to point us all to the post where this is what I said and allow my posts to stand for themselves rather than defend myself.

This sort of argumentation is a waste of time. Everyone who discusses this subject knows the Bible mentions homosexuality, and despite you not being able to demonstrate that it is not a sin, you continue to ask for more proof.

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Again, my posts will attest to the fact that I do think that homosexual acts are sin. You were asked to show how scripture says that homosexuality is one of the worst sins, not that it is a sin.

I have pointed out the problem that the verses that mention homosexuality do not exculsively mention or refer to idolatry, and yet you still ask for more proof?

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You have been maintaining that homosexuality is a worst sin, you were asked to present proof in scripture to this claim, not to the idea of idolatry.

What am I to take from that attitude of yours? Your entire argument stems from causing doubt and disputing words. Indeed, without the reference back to some words you can fuss over, you have nothing left but to accuse people of being judgemental falsely or try to drag the discussion back to the words again.

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First off, you are the only person on this thread that I recall talking about judgement. I did not call you judgemental, where is that coming from? Secondly, discussions are about words, you cannot seperate them. I simply asked you to show us the proof that God lists homosexuality as one of the worst sins and how is homosexuality and the act of homosexual sin the same thing. God talks about the sin of lust seperately from the sin of adulters, prostitution, etc. Even for those who would like to argue that homosexuality is not a sin, lust is and that goes for homosexuals as well as heterosexuals, maybe we could start there sometime.

You are free to go back and dredge up ever single one of the references to homosexuality and deconstruct them one by one again, and I will again ask you how you get the idea that they are all releated to idolatry, and you will again tell me that since there is doubt, it is up to me to get rid of the doubt or else you are right and I am judgemental.

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Again, I have never said that homosexual sex is not a sin, I have not deconstructed anything, and I have not said that homosexuality was idolatry. I have not said that I was unwilling to listen and consider others ideas, (in fact I have asked others for the reasons for thier views) I have never called you judgemental or thought of you as such.

This is a false argument on its face.

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What arguement is false? not sure what you are referring too.

Answer my quesions and if you have a good answer, maybe I will change my mind. For now, I don't have a clue where all this doubt comes from.

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I do not care if you or anyone here changes their minds, what I care about to finding the truth so that all those here who seek to know God will find Him in all of His fullness. For HIS is the KINGDOM and the POWER and the GLORY forever not mine.

Shane Roach said:

The counterpassage for food is in the NT. There is no counterpassage for any sort of fornication of whatever orientation.

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The cooking is prohibited not the consumption, so it is not a food prohibition and not covered under the declarations of all foods clean.

As far as I know, same sex attraction is not in and of itself sinfull. I believe I have said that more than once. You really butchered my last post, ignoring huge portions and all sorts of important concerns just to set me up for another accusation of being judgemental. I'm dissapointed, but I guess not entirely surprised.

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I didn't think that you considered the attractions sinful. I was pointing out that you were treating one difficult but nonsinful condition (homosexuality) from another difficult but nonsinful condition (cancer).

You declared homosexuals to be "uniquely far from God." I don't know what context I could have butchered away to alter the meaning of what you said.

I can agree to disagree on whether homosexuals should always remain celibate. However, I cannot stand by when I see such libel as saying that those with same-sex attractions have a lack of faith.

Shane Roach said:

This might be an opportunity for me to learn something as well. What exactly does it mean to you to be a Christian overall? What sorts of struggles do you deal with as you try to walk your walk with Christ?

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Thanks for asking, Shane. Overall, it means that Jesus is the master of my life. I would imagine that I deal with struggles not unlike yours: how to treat those who are different from me with respect and dignity; what does it mean to "pray unceasingly?"; how can I recognize the Christ in the stranger's guise;

that's 3 struggles - of course there are more...but you get the idea. Thanks again for being open to an answer.

Blessings!

fejao said:

Well I personally would not say I am a proud gay person. I have since I was a child been told by the church that I am an abomination, pervert and possessed. Now that does'nt do much for your confidence, especially when you never made a choice to be who you are. However I know the meaning of perseverance, I have kept going to church and going after God even though I have sat through a few cell groups and services when my close friends have pulled down and said many bad things about homosexuals and basically there was so much that could have pushed me away from God. However I know God is real and he has done so many amazing things in my life and shown me his power and used me in amazing ways. So there is no way that I am going to abandon the lover of my soul and anyway he chose me, the homosexual Fejao. I am a Christian and I am going to be at the wedding feast despite what some say here !


Fejao x x

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God bless you, brother! I am so sorry you have gone through such abominable treatment. Hopefully your persecutors will have the scales dropped from their eyes, and realize that they have only done harm to you - even though their intentions may have been well-meaning.

Your faith is strong - that is an amazing testament to the God who created us all. I pray that you will find a way each day to seek God's face unashamed - because you are one of his precious children, and he made you in his likeness. You can indeed be proud of who you are in him - no matter what others say.

Bless you!

Shane Roach said:

I think that it is possible that the only real choice we have in life is for God or against Him. I think that because of multiple verses relating to the predestination of the elect and so forth. It is not a hard and fast belief. I also believe in free will because I just see myself as having it. How does one believe in free will and predestiny at the same time? Possibly the same way one believes the behavior of light as studied in quantum electrodynamics. Many people describe quantum physics as "counter-intuitive", but to me I think it's just that people tend to hold on to preconcieved notions far after the time when the preconception has been demonstrated to be wrong. Ultimately, whatever is, is. It's up to the person to adjust their beliefs, not for reality to adjust to the person. I guess that makes me a rabid objectivist, if that's a word.

Sin could well be just an outward sign of inward rejection of God's authority. God controlled Pharoah for example. And there is a verse that says, in effect, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and whom I will I harden." And there is an explanation for that as well. If you're not familair with it I can post it, but right now I am just throwing ideas out to see where you are on the subject.

Happy churching.

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So where am I on this subject....Mmmmmmm thats a difficult question, which subject lol ! Well yes I believe that we have free will, but also that we a predestined to be diciples of Jesus. However this seems contradictory, maybe there is not contradiction and that our small human minds cant understand the great things of God, this is personally what I think. However I do want to point out just incase people think this is a get out clause to sin willy nilly, its not a ticket to sin as you like, you can loose your salvation and not be a child of light but of darkness. I believe that you can either reject or accept Jesus gift of acceptance and salvation, I personally have accepted this gift and I have the blessed assurance that I am saved.

I also believe that sin is an outward expression of the state of the persons heart. However we all sin continually, thats the consequence of living in a fallen world. However the blood shed for us, blots out this sin and we are sons and daughter of Christ and we are co-heirs with Christ ! I believe that Jesus looks at the attitude of the heart and whether homosexuality is wrong or right, its the attitude of the heart that the Lord will look at when he judges us and not the people that we externally physically love. I hope I have in part answered your question.

Fejao x x

fragmentsofdreams said:

The cooking is prohibited not the consumption, so it is not a food prohibition and not covered under the declarations of all foods clean.

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I don't see anything about it in Acts 15:19-20.

Concerning "uniquely far from God" or razzelflabben's problem's with why homosexuality might be considered particularly sinful in comparison to other sins, it is in regards to the extreme sense that it is always treated at every mention of the behavior. Once more, razz, I pointed out to you a specific verse that talks of levels of punishmet. There is an OT verse in Ecclesiastes that exhorts people to be neither overly wicked nor overly righteous. There are references to some of the most righteous, such as the most righteous king, or Enoch who was taken, and so forth.

This is why I object to the idea of all sin being equal. All sin leads to death, but just as a shotgun shell to the head will get you there more quickly that starvation, so too there are degrees of sin and degrees of effect it will have on your life and afterlife.

I am to a certain extent getting weary of being asked for more and more verses that are getting to the point where I am quoting verses seamingly just to define basic words in english that shouldn't need Bible quotes to back them up, such as this whole sordid thing about degrees of sin. We have precisely one verse that says "the wages if sin is death," being used to introduce an entirely different meaning to the very words good, better, best or bad, worse, worst. This is important and why I brought it up to begin with, and I can see now it is having an even more serious effect on some people than I ever thought. Of course there are some sins that are worse than others. There is after all only one that is unforgiveable.

It's all rather plain. One does not have to have a heirarchy-of-sin graph to see the different levels of discipline mentioned in the OT law, for example, or just plain every day usage and thought on the concept of good and bad things. Degree is just a commonly understood concept. Razz, you have even said repeatedly you don't want to talk about it anymore, then you continually bring the concept back up. I suppose as many times as you challenge it I will be forced to repeat the explanation, but...

blergh.