Is There A Difference between Apostle and Disciple?

chad kincham said:

You bet.

BTW there are three different kinds of tongued as Paul said, there are DIVERSITIES of tongues.

So now you’re going to “teach” me all about spiritual gifts?


Someone who has a form of Godliness but denies the POWER is going to correct me on Dunamis power?

I don’t think so.

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now it all makes perfect sense why you know the truth and no one else does- .

Jesus is YHWH said:

not into your cut n paste

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That’s not cut and paste, whatsoever.

Now call me a liar.

You’re just not into anything that refutes semi-apostate cessationist dogma.

Jesus is YHWH said:

now it all makes perfect sense why you know the truth and no one else does- .

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Some people actually read the whole bible, and not just someone’s systematic theology proof texts.

FYI.

chad kincham said:

That’s not cut and paste, whatsoever.

Now call me a liar.

You’re just not into anything that refutes semi-apostate cessationist dogma.

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I refute all false miracles, signs and wonders just like Jesus and the Apostles taught us to do and you believe them hook, line and sinker.

Matthew 24:23-27
Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

hope this helps !!!

chad kincham said:

Some people actually read the whole bible, and not just someone’s systematic theology proof texts.

FYI.

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says the charismatic -- pot calling kettle

Go to the Catholics to see if Matthias became a saint. A person has to have 3 miracles attributed to them to become a saint. I think Judas Iscariot must have worked a few miracles or cast out demons. He drank fully from the Lords cup and then he fell away.
He could not repent.

Unqualified said:

Go to the Catholics to see if Matthias became a saint. A person has to have 3 miracles attributed to them to become a saint. I think Judas Iscariot must have worked a few miracles or cast out demons. He drank fully from the Lords cup and then he fell away.
He could not repent.

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correct judas was never saved.

Jesus is YHWH said:

The purpose of signs, wonder, and miracles was to authenticate the messenger and the message. This was necessary because God's written revelation was yet incomplete. Christ performed many miracles and signs which the Apostle John describes with these words: Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name (John 20:30-31). Notice, the miracles of Jesus gave authenticated His message and claims to His Deity.

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Except for the many verses I gave showing that Dunamis power and miracles are for those who believe, and for all who God shall call.

Miracles confirmed the word then, and continue to confirm the word and who Jesus is, today.

In fact miracles confirming Jesus and the word is needed just as much today, maybe more so.

One billion Muslims are taught that God has no son, and that our bible is badly corrupted.

The great apostasy brought much atheism all over the world, and Darwinian evolution denies a creator exists and that life exists from natural process.

Worldwide there are many more religions with their own gods and their own scriptures, claiming to have the real truth.

Thus the claim that the church has somehow been officially established, and that the NT scriptures existence proves anything to the disbelieving world, is ludicrous.

That’s why the testimony of many third world evangelists is that they learned they get very few converts when the gospel is preached by itself - but when they start off by having the sick come forward and get healed in the name of Jesus, the word of Jehovah and Jesus as Gods Son is confirmed as the truth, and many believe and are saved.

Thus the cessationist argument is found to be false.

Jesus is YHWH said:

correct judas was never saved.

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Judas was saved before He was lost..

He was included when Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to the 12, included in the empowerment Jesus gave the 12 to heal the sick, raise the dead and cast out demons.

FYI God does not give the Holy Spirit to the unsaved.

On top of that Judas was one of those given to Jesus by God!
Jesus said to the Father, “I’ve lost none of those you have GIVEN ME EXCEPT Judas”.

chad kincham said:

Except for the many verses I gave showing that Dunamis power and miracles are for those who believe, and for all who God shall call.

Miracles confirmed the word then, and continue to confirm the word and who Jesus is, today.

In fact miracles confirming Jesus and the word is needed just as much today, maybe more so.

One billion Muslims are taught that God has no son, and that our bible is badly corrupted.

The great apostasy brought much atheism all over the world, and Darwinian evolution denies a creator exists and that life exists from natural process.

Worldwide there are many more religions with their own gods and their own scriptures, claiming to have the real truth.

Thus the claim that the church has somehow been officially established, and that the NT scriptures existence proves anything to the disbelieving world, is ludicrous.

That’s why the testimony of many third world evangelists is that they learned they get very few converts when the gospel is preached by itself - but when they start off by having the sick come forward and get healed in the name of Jesus, the word of Jehovah and Jesus as Gods Son is confirmed as the truth, and many believe and are saved.

Thus the cessationist argument is found to be false.

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conflating power with miracles,signs and wonders.

another demonstration of poor hermenuetics and in your case eisegesis rather than exegesis. Reading your theology/ideas into the text.

chad kincham said:

Judas was saved before He was lost..

He was included when Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to the 12, included in the empowerment Jesus gave the 12 to heal the sick, raise the dead and cast out demons.

FYI God does not give the Holy Spirit to the unsaved.

On top of that Judas was one of those given to Jesus by God!
Jesus said to the Father, “I’ve lost none of those you have GIVEN ME EXCEPT Judas”.

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Nowhere in scripture does it say that Judas was saved or possessed eternal life. In fact it declares just the opposite. The bible teaches that Judas was the son of perdition from the beginning. He was created for the very purpose and role as the traitor who would betray Jesus. Jesus said of Judas it would of been better off for him to not even been born than to betray the Son of Man.

I can see you have not ever studies bible characters before chad. Here is how Scripture describes the heart and character of judas. Nothing below even hints he was saved but in fact just the opposite. His character is descriptive of a reprobate mind, a son of perdition/destruction just like the future man of sin who deceives the whole world, one of greed, selfishness. One who received the reward of his wicked and corrupt heart and the psalmist described as an EVIL MAN.

John 6:63-65
The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

John 6:70-71
Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray Him.)

John 12:4-6
But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray Him, objected, 5 "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

John 13:10-11
10 Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11 For He knew who was going to betray Him, and that was why He said not every one was clean.

John 17:12
12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Matt 26:23-25
23 Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?"

Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."

Acts 1:16-19
16 and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17 he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."

18 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

Acts 1:24-26
Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Ps 109:4-8
In return for my friendship they accuse me,
but I am a man of prayer.
5 They repay me evil for good,
and hatred for my friendship.

6 Appoint an evil man to oppose him;
let an accuser stand at his right hand.
7 When he is tried, let him be found guilty,
and may his prayers condemn him.
8 May his days be few;
may another take his place of leadership.

hope this helps !!!

Unqualified said:

Go to the Catholics to see if Matthias became a saint. A person has to have 3 miracles attributed to them to become a saint. I think Judas Iscariot must have worked a few miracles or cast out demons. He drank fully from the Lords cup and then he fell away.
He could not repent.

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Where do you get that from? Judas repented:

Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

He repented, said he had sinned by betraying Jesus, and returned the 30 pieces of silver.

Shalom.

chad kincham said:

Where do you get that from? Judas repented:

Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

He repented, said he had sinned by betraying Jesus, and returned the 30 pieces of silver.

Shalom.

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Another abuse of a word removed the the greater context of Scripture. Here is judas repentance ie remorse. judas was a worldly sorrow

2 Corinthians 7:9-11
yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.

judas guilty in his matter whereas the believers above were INNOCENT in the matter with godly sorrow.

chad you need to learn how to RIGHTLY divide the word of truth.

hope this helps !!!

Jesus is YHWH said:

conflating power with miracles,signs and wonders.

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The word POWER is Dunamis in every scripture I gave.

Jesus healed the sick because He was anointed with the Holy Spirt and DUNAMIS - miracle working HS power is the definition of Dunamis. Acts 1:38

Believers get the HS and DUNAMIS. Acts 1:8

Stephen full of faith and DUNAMIS did this:

Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and DUNAMIS, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

INDEED the Bible equates Dunamis with miracles, irrefutably so, since that’s how Jesus healed the sick and did miracles.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with Dunamis power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

chad kincham said:

The word POWER is Dunamis in every scripture I gave.

Jesus healed the sick because He was anointed with the Holy Spirt and DUNAMIS - miracle working HS power is the definition of Dunamis. Acts 1:38

Believers get the HS and DUNAMIS. Acts 1:8

Stephen full of faith and DUNAMIS did this:

Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and DUNAMIS, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

INDEED the Bible equates Dunamis with miracles, irrefutably so, since that’s how Jesus healed the sick and did miracles.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with Dunamis power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

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you have been making what is known as the fallacy of "appeal to emotions "

you are making emotional arguments not logical arguments. you are allowing experience to over ride truth and objectivity in your reasoning from the scriptures.

also taking a word and forming a doctrine from that word disregarding the greater context of scripture.

a text without the context is a pretext for a prooftext.

this is the fallacy known as proof texting which you have demonstrated in this thread.

hope this helps !!!

Jesus is YHWH said:

Another abuse of a word removed the the greater context of Scripture. Here is judas repentance ie remorse. judas was a worldly sorrow

2 Corinthians 7:9-11
yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.

judas guilty in his matter whereas the believers above were INNOCENT in the matter with godly sorrow.

chad you need to learn how to RIGHTLY divide the word of truth.

hope this helps !!!

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You can’t escape the fact Judas was given the Holy Spirit as one of the 12, was empowered to do miracles as one of the 12, and most of all, can’t refute the fact that Judas was one of those given to Jesus by the Father, before he was LOST:

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, EXCEPT the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

1. Judas was given to Jesus by the Father along with the other 11.
2. Yet Judas was LOST.
3. Ergo, Judas was saved before he was lost.

chad kincham said:

You can’t escape the fact Judas was given the Holy Spirit as one of the 12, was empowered to do miracles as one of the 12, and most of all, can’t refute the fact that Judas was one of those given to Jesus by the Father, before he was LOST:

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, EXCEPT the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

1. Judas was given to Jesus by the Father along with the other 11.
2. Yet Judas was LOST.
3. Ergo, Judas was saved before he was lost.

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Judas is just another branch hewn from the tree. The unfruitful branch.

chad kincham said:

You can’t escape the fact Judas was given the Holy Spirit as one of the 12, was empowered to do miracles as one of the 12, and most of all, can’t refute the fact that Judas was one of those given to Jesus by the Father, before he was LOST:

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, EXCEPT the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

1. Judas was given to Jesus by the Father along with the other 11.
2. Yet Judas was LOST.
3. Ergo, Judas was saved before he was lost.

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Jesus never said judas was saved.

and the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit came at Pentecost

your false theology is easy to dismantle, truth always prevails over falsehoods.

Jesus is YHWH said:

you have been making what is known as the fallacy of "appeal to emotions "

you are making emotional arguments not logical arguments. you are allowing experience to over ride truth and objectivity in your reasoning from the scriptures.

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Your straw man argument is moot.

The scriptural definition of Dunamis power, and the fact that healing and miracles are done by Dunamis power, has nothing to do with emotion.

G1411 (Strong)

δύναμις

dunamis

doo'-nam-is

From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.

Total KJV occurrences: 120

Jesus is YHWH said:

Jesus never said judas was saved.

and the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit came at Pentecost

your false theology is easy to dismantle, truth always prevails over falsehoods.

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Every Calvinist on earth quotes being given to Jesus by the father as proof of unconditional Election, which means salvation, so your argument fails in claiming Jesus never said Judas was saved.

He didn’t use the word saved about any apostle, He did say Judas was lost in the end, after being given to Him by the father.

One can’t be LOST if they were never FOUND.

Judas was given TO. Jesus, yet was LOST by Jesus.

You can rationalize all day long, but that can’t erase the facts.