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I replied to his post in the post prio to this one, #1560. The words "groan" and "pledge" in 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 show that what he asserts regarding Paul "correcting" what he had previously said, is patently false.Everyone, please take note of what poster Timtofly said here. He is saying that he believes Paul made a mistake in 1 Corinthians 15 and what he said in 2 Corinthians 5 was a case of him correcting what he said in 1 Corinthians 15. Can you believe this heresy?
Tim, do you not understand that every word of the Bible is inspired by God? If you think Paul was mistaken in 1 Corinthians 15 then you are saying God was mistaken in what He inspired Paul to write in 1 Corinthians 15. That is heresy to suggest that God could ever be mistaken.
Do you agree that the Spirit of God breathed life into the man he created, and when God breathed life into Adam, Adam became a living soul (Genesis 2:7)?
If so, why do we need to be born of the Spirit in order to be baptized by the Spirit into Christ's death, and raised with Christ's resurrection?
How did Adam's sin result in him being dead in his sin? Is it not because he lost the indwelling of the Spirit of God in him when he sinned and was no longer a living soul? What does Paul mean when he states that death came to all men through Adam (Romans 5:12)?
Why does scripture call Jesus the last Adam, and Adam the first Adam?
Why does Paul say,
"But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruit (ἀπαρχή aparchḗ) of those who slept.
For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (ἀπαρχή aparchḗ), and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;" 1 Cortinthians 15:20-23
When Seth died, was his death the 2nd death? Or did Cain die before Seth and was Cain's death the 2nd death, and Seth's death, the 3rd death? Was Noah's death the billionth death? Or is Adam = mankind, since we are all sons of Adam, and therefore Adam's death is the death of all mankind?
How many deaths does scripture teach us took place after Adam's death?
What are the following verses teaching us about?:-
(a) Many deaths, or one death that came to mankind?
(b) Many resurrections, or one resurrection that came to mankind?:-
"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned:" Romans 5:12
"For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:22
If:-
(i) Mankind has all experienced one death - Adam's death; and
(ii) Seth's death was not "the 2nd death"; and
(iii) The 2nd death will only come at the time of the GWT,
Then how is it that the last Adam's resurrection from death is the first of many? Is that what the scriptures I quoted above are teaching? What does scripture mean when it calls Adam the first Adam, and Christ the last Adam? Is there absolutely no significance in such titles?:
"And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, was made a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit.
But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.
The first man was out of earth, earthy; the second Man was the Lord from Heaven.
Such the earthy man, such also the earthy ones. And such the heavenly Man, such also the heavenly ones.
And according as we bore the image of the earthy man, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man." 1 Corinthians 15:45-49
When those who are Christ's at His coming are raised from the dead, is this resurrection they will experience not the resurrection of mankind from the dead, brought about through the resurrection of the last Adam? Those who will not experience the 2nd death, is it not because while they were alive, they were raised with Christ, the last Adam, after being baptized by His Spirit into His death and resurrection from the dead when they were born of the Spirit of God? How can their resurrection be a "2nd resurrection" when, until the time of the 2nd death, mankind has only experienced one death? Is the theological thinking you have about this only from scripture, or has your understanding been influenced by church theology?
If Adam's death = mankind's death, and it makes no difference how long after Adam's death you were born into the world, you were still born dead, without the Spirit of God dwelling in you, then why would it make a difference how long after mankind's resurrection from the dead through the last Adam, you experience your own bodily resurrection? There is still only one death that came through Adam, and one resurrection that came through the last Adam. The 2nd death has not come yet, and there will be no "2nd resurrection" after the 2nd death, and your own bodily resurrection, when it comes, is part of the mankind's first resurrection from the dead, which came through the last Adam.
Before we die, we are only part of the royal priesthood while we choose to remain part of it. If we fall away for whatever reason, we cannot still be called "priests of God".
Therefore until we have died in Christ we are not guaranteed that we will not be hurt by the 2nd death, because if we have not remained faithful to the end, then we have removed ourselves just as much as the Jews who rejected Christ removed themselves and became broken off. Paul made it clear that those Gentiles who fall away will likewise be cut off:
I have the sense that you keep asking the question because you believe in OSAS. I do not believe in OSAS.
Those who have already died, and who died in Christ, will not experience the 2nd death -
We are in agreement with almost everything in this regard, but I do not view predestination as you do - I believe God foreknew us before the foundation of the world because we are in Christ who is before the foundation of the world. The first Adam is not before the foundation of the world, but he was also predestined and foreknown, until he sinned. Then he died, and death came to all men.Yes, I agree that the breath of life made man a living soul. However, it's import to also understand that the breath of life also made animals living souls. Therefore, I view the "breath of life" as what animates man's, or animal's, body.
Genesis 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath (nis mat) of life (hay yim), and the man became a living (le ne pes) soul (hay yah).
Genesis 2:19 Now out of the ground the LORD God had formedf every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living (ne pes) soul (hay yah), that was its name.
Genesis 7:15 They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath (ru ah) of life (hay yim).
Genesis 7:20-22 The waters prevailed above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubitsd deep. 21And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind. Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath (nis mat) of life (hay yim) died. He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens.
Therefore, I believe it is on physical death that man/creature loses the "breath of life".
Because of Adam's transgression, which resulted in us being dead in our sin.
Depends on what you mean by "indwelling of the Spirit of God". If you mean breath of life, no, adam did not lose that when ate from the fruit. Adam lived physically, after he at the fruit, until 930 years.
There is no scripture or teaching that Adam received the Holy Spirit in the garden. It is the natural that was first: adam being a living soul and then the spiritual: last adam became a living -giving spirit.
1 corinthians 15:45-47 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”;e the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven
Adam was a "type" of the one to come: Jesus
Romans 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
First it was the natural: Adam, a living soul, through whom death came to all
then the spiritual: Christ, a life-giving spirit, through whom life comes to those in Christ.
1 corinthians 15:45-47 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”;e the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven
IMHO, this passage is in regards to the bodily resurrection (anastasis) from the dead which occurs at Christ's coming.
IMHO, being dead in sin is intimately tied to physical death. When Adam sinned, he became dead in his sin, and his access to the tree of life was removed, resulting in his eventual physical death.
When Christ came, he lived a perfect life, died, and rose again. The exact antitype of Adam. This gave spiritual life to those in Christ, guaranteeing our future resurrection from the dead and eternal life, reversing the very curse brought about by Adam.
No, it wasn't the 2nd death.
The bible teaches a lot death occurred after adam. Noah died, Abraham died, isaac died, jacob died, moses died, David died, etc.......See hebrews 11,
Adam's death = death for all man kind = being dead in sin and eventual physical death.
lake of fire = 2nd death = eternal judgment for those not in Christ
Christ's bodily resurrection (first resurrection) raised us from being dead in sin.
Being raised from being dead in our sins leads to our future bodily resurrection.
A first resurrection implies a 2nd resurrection.
Good, so we are in agreement that those who are in Christ, and have been raised from being dead in their sin by partaking in Christ's resurrection, are a part of the royal priesthood of God, while they remain in Christ.
1 peter 2:5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
please notice that those who partake in the first resurrection (christ's resurrection as we agree) will be a kingdom of priests. As we appear to agree, this is a present reality for those in Christ.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
No disagreements that those who who fall away can be hurt by the 2nd death. However, I am not talking about those who fall away.
I am talking about those whom God foreknew and chose before the foundation of the world that are predestined to be conformed to the image of His son.
Ephesians 1:4-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Romans 8:28-230 and we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,h for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Those whom God foreknows and predestines to be conformed into the image of son are guaranteed to never be hurt by the 2nd death, would you disagree?
OSAS only refers to the those specifically in Christ, that God foreknew, that overcome till the end.
So you disagree that God foreknows who would come to His son in faith and repentance and remain in Him till death?
You believe the 2nd death can hurt those whom God foreknew would remain in His son till their death?
Looks like we are in agreement, that those who partake in the 1st resurrection (christ's resurrection), and are raised from being dead in their sins, and overcome till the end, will never be hurt by the 2nd death.
1.) Prior to physical death, During the life of those whom God foreknew would overcome till the end, was the promise of eternal life true?
2.) Prior to physical death, During the life of those whom God foreknew would overcome till the end, could the 2nd death ever hurt them?
Those questions imply that God foreknew only those who would overcome till the end, but not those who would fall away, which, as I explained in the first part of my post above the above excerpt of your post, I do not believe is the case. Therefore your questions are (IMO) founded on a false premise and cannot be answered.Good, so we are in agreement that those who are in Christ, and have been raised from being dead in their sin by partaking in Christ's resurrection, are a part of the royal priesthood of God, while they remain in Christ.
Looks like we are in agreement, that those who partake in the 1st resurrection (christ's resurrection), and are raised from being dead in their sins, and overcome till the end, will never be hurt by the 2nd death.
1.) Prior to physical death, During the life of those whom God foreknew would overcome till the end, was the promise of eternal life true?
2.) Prior to physical death, During the life of those whom God foreknew would overcome till the end, could the 2nd death ever hurt them?
Did I say he made a mistake?Everyone, please take note of what poster Timtofly said here. He is saying that he believes Paul made a mistake in 1 Corinthians 15 and what he said in 2 Corinthians 5 was a case of him correcting what he said in 1 Corinthians 15. Can you believe this heresy?
Tim, do you not understand that every word of the Bible is inspired by God? If you think Paul was mistaken in 1 Corinthians 15 then you are saying God was mistaken in what He inspired Paul to write in 1 Corinthians 15. That is heresy to suggest that God could ever be mistaken.
Those in Paradise are standing around groaning, waiting for their permanent body?The same word used for "groan" in 2 Cor 5:2 is also used in Rom 8:22, and all the following passages show that the resurrection of the body is something we are still hoping for.
Rom 8:22-25
"And we know that the whole creation groans (συστενάζω systenázō) and travails in pain together until now. And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan (στενάζω stenázō) within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body.
For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it?
25 But if we hope for that which we do not see, then we wait for it with patience."
The word stenázō means to groan, and the word systenázō refers to groaning together - as in the creation groaning together.
2 Cor 5:1-5
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For indeed in this we groan (στενάζω stenázō), earnestly desiring to be clothed with our dwelling-place out of Heaven;
if indeed in being clothed, we shall not be found naked.
For we who are in this tabernacle groan (στενάζω stenázō), being burdened; inasmuch as we do not wish to be unclothed, but to be clothed, so that the mortal might be swallowed up by the life.
And He who has worked in us for this same thing is God, who also is giving to us the earnest (ἀῤῥαβών arrhabṓn) of the Spirit.
The word arrhabṓn (G00728) in the above verse means "a pledge", i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest:--earnest." It is also found in 2 Cor 1:22
2 Cor 1:22:
"Now he who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, is God; Who has also sealed us, and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. (ἀῤῥαβών arrhabṓn)"
So 2 Cor 5:1-2, like 1 Corinthians 15, clearly refers to our future bodily resurrection. All these scriptures, including 1 Corinthians 15:20-58 teach that we have been given the Spirit as a pledge, as a guarantee that we will receive this, and so we live in the hope of it, groaning within ourselves while we earnestly desire to be clothed with our immortal bodies. I can't see that there is anything in the New Testament to support what you are saying. The souls of those who died in Christ, we are told by Paul, will go to be with Him - if you like, "in Christ's bosom" (because His Spirit is IN US and we are IN HIM), and He is in heaven, seated on the throne of God, at the right hand of the Father.
It was not me who accused you of heresy. All I'm doing is saying why I disagree with your understanding of the text. I don't believe your understanding of the text is Biblically accurate, but I have not and will not accuse you of "heresy".Those in Paradise are standing around groaning, waiting for their permanent body?
Why does Paul say, they leave one behind and enter the permanent one in Paradise?
6 So we are always confident — we know that so long as we are at home in the body, we are away from our home with the Lord;
7 for we live by trust, not by what we see.
8 We are confident, then, and would much prefer to leave our home in the body and come to our home with the Lord.
I am confident with Paul, he is currently in his permanent, incorruptible body. If that is being a heretic, then I am confidently a heretic next to Paul's heresy.
I am sure many martyrs were also burned at the stake or killed in other ways, wrongly, for being accused of Paul's heresy, that the church forbade at one time or the other.
Yes, you did. Do you not remember anything you say?Did I say he made a mistake?
If he "could have written the first letter better" and you say some "ignore Paul correcting himself in the second letter", how is that not you saying that Paul made a mistake? If he had to correct himself then that means he had made a mistake. But, he did not. You are just foolishly not accepting what he wrote in 1 Corinthians 15.Timtofly said:why do you not see Paul was admitting he could have written the first letter better?
Many stick to a point they think 1 Corinthians 15 says, and totally ignore Paul correcting himself in the second letter.
No scripture is heretical. It's all true. Your interpretation of 2 Corinthians 5 is wrong, but not heretical.Do you then declare 2 Corinthians 5 heretical?
I'm not calling his understanding of the text heresy, I'm saying that him claiming that Paul was mistaken in 1 Corinthians 15 and had to "correct himself" in 2 Corinthians 5 is heresy.It was not me who accused you of heresy. All I'm doing is saying why I disagree with your understanding of the text. I don't believe your understanding of the text is Biblically accurate, but I have not and will not accuse you of "heresy".
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