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See my post #114. No talk of a tribulation. "Let not your heart be troubled" is enough. The Tribulation and Great Tribulation are for the unbelieving, the ungodly, the wicked, and the enemies of God and Christ. They have nothing to do with the saints.Show where Scripture says Christians are taken directly into heaven by Jesus before a period of tribulation.
The best I've seen which I believe supports a post tribulation rapture is the following:
1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing; Isaiah 40:15 so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
(St. Irenaeus: Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 29)
A pre-trib view will focus on the blue above. A post trib (historic futurist or chiliastic view would focus on the brown above.)
In the court for the historic futurists with regards to Irenaeus would be the previous chapter 28 section 4.
4. And therefore throughout all time, man, having been moulded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet. As a certain man of ours said, when he was condemned to the wild beasts because of his testimony with respect to God: I am the wheat of Christ, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of God.
(St Irenaeus: Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 28)
Actually Mathew 24 makes no reference to the Rapture.I now submit Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:29 as verses supporting a mid-post tribulation rapture as a literal reading of Matthew 24:29 suggests.
This is exactly what is meant when it is said - you are following men's doctrines , men's teachings - those teachings while they may be somewhat correct they are not totally correct Which is why you see Dozens of different DENOMINATIONAL teachingsDo you understand that as of 1800 AD, there were zero theologians and zero preachers were believed in a rapture, at least a rapture separate from the Second Coming?
In one of the Left Behind movies, it blandly says, "All Christians believe in it." Not true.
On the contrary, I grew up as a Southern Baptist. We spent about five hours in church on Sunday. When I graduated from High School, I had never heard of the "rapture." There is no reason I should have.
It is possible that I first encountered the "rapture" on bumper stickers, like "In case of Rapture this car will be unmanned."
Which churches believe in a rapture (separate from the Second Coming)?
The Roman Catholic church does not believe in a Rapture. (Or never heard of it.)
The Eastern Orthodox church does not believe in a Rapture. (Or never heard of it.)
The Lutheran Church does not believe in a Rapture. After all, Martin Luther did not believe in it, since the idea wasn't invented until hundreds of years later.
Presbyterians & Calvinists don't believe in a Rapture. John Calvin did not teach a rapture, since no one had ever heard of such an idea.
Episcopalians/Anglicans do not believe in a Rapture. It's not in any of their creeds.
Methodists do not believe in a Rapture. John Wesley did not teach a rapture, since no one had ever heard of such an idea.
Baptists don't believe in it either. I once astounded a Rapture advocate on CF by pointing out that the Southern Baptist Statement of Faith simply says "God will bring the world to an end in an appropriate way," on the end times.
The Rapture teaching came out of Dispensationalism. I've read books by Dispensationalists and I can't even define what Dispensationalism is. All I can say is that it is a grab bag of absurd notion that appeal to reactionary Christians.
The topic is not about dispensationalism , no wonder you are lostI grew up as Dispensationalist. The doctrine of the rapture was the only thing I knew for the first ~18 years of my life. That's about how old I was when I first met anyone who challenged the doctrine, and it seemed absolutely foolish to me that a Christian could say that the doctrine of the rapture wasn't true because, in my mind, of course it was how could it not be? So I quoted the usual bread and butter rapturist proof texts, such as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. But they went further, they asked me to go read Scripture myself and to show them where it says that Jesus will return prior to "the tribulation" and take all Christians out of the world into heaven.
So I looked.
And I looked.
And nothing. It wasn't there. No where in Scripture.
I did, however, notice something else in my reading, something nobody had ever taught me in my entire lifetime as a Christian, the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead.
Instead of finding anything about Jesus snatching us up from the earth into heaven to escape tribulation, I instead saw a consistent, repeated, and constant emphasis in Scripture about the fact that the Lord will come and the dead will be raised. Not taken into heaven, but resurrected in the body.
This alarmed me, as nobody had ever told me that there would be a resurrection of the dead, only that there would be a "rapture". I wondered if maybe I was wrong in what I was reading, or how I was reading it--then I discovered that what I was reading in Scripture for the first time wasn't just me, it was in fact what had always been believed. It's what the ancient fathers of the Church taught, it's what every theologian, churchman, and teacher in Christianity had taught since the earliest years of Christianity right up until today. The fathers believed this, the medieval theologians believed this, the Protestant Reformers believed this, and every major Christian group and denomination today believed this. It's what Catholics believed, it's what Orthodox believed, it's what Lutherans believed, it's what Methodists believed, it's what Presbyterians believed, it's what Baptists historically believed, and so on.
This again alarmed me, because if I could open up a copy of the Bible and see this, and if it's what was always believed historically, and what virtually all Christians today still believed--then why didn't anyone teach me this? So I spoke to my dad about it, thinking maybe I had been told this but for some reason just never processed it. My dad was perplexed when I brought it up, because he wasn't aware of it either. Then when talking with my Christian friends, both from my Pentecostal church and from another non-denominational church, they thought I was just being weird and told me that of course the rapture is true and that they had never heard of any resurrection before. The reason I didn't know about it, turns out, wasn't simply because I wasn't paying attention, it's because my teachers in the faith--my parents and church leaders--either didn't know anything about this themselves, or simply never talked about it.
This was a seminal moment in my Christian life, it was the impetus that put me on a path toward questioning the things I had been raised to believe without question, and toward an earnest, thorough and continual study and reading of Scripture, to study the history of the Christian Church, and begin studying theology.
So what's my point? My point really is only this: It is precisely because I dedicated myself to the study and pursuit of Holy Scripture that I gave up on the doctrine of the rapture and came to accept the historic and orthodox doctrines of the Christian Church.
I would also encourage people to study these things. Though when you do, you may not like what you find. At least not at first. Don't worry though, turns out good theology and solid exegesis is far better than bad theology and bad heremeneutics. You'll be better for it in the end, and have a far better foundation in your faith to stand upon.
-CryptoLutheran
You afraid to present your case because you have none-Burden of proof rests upon the one making a positive claim. That's Debate 101.
-CryptoLutheran
See my post #114. No talk of a tribulation. "Let not your heart be troubled" is enough. The Tribulation and Great Tribulation are for the unbelieving, the ungodly, the wicked, and the enemies of God and Christ. They have nothing to do with the saints.
While not a complete argument, the concept of the rapture is only 200 years old. For most of church history, the idea was simply not there.I see it a lot being written and been told it. I want to know why people believe it is false.
I consider it my only hope each day. ....
Again that is false - it has always been there since the scriptures were written - you are falling victim to mens false teachingsWhile not a complete argument, the concept of the rapture is only 200 years old. For most of church history, the idea was simply not there.
I think the rapture is not Biblical and is based on misinterpreted metaphorical language in the New Testament.
I see it a lot being written and been told it. I want to know why people believe it is false.
I consider it my only hope each day. ....
Well, sort of. The idea appears to be on the order of perhaps 400 years old, not 200. But, either way, it is a relatively new idea in church history.Again that is false - it has always been there since the scriptures were written - you are falling victim to mens false teachings
No. Notice a post a bit later:Again that is false - it has always been there since the scriptures were written - you are falling victim to mens false teachings
The rapture is real and Biblical, the issue lies with how this event has been misunderstood and distorted due to erroneous interperting of scripture.
One example of a misread metaphor in support of rapture: meet the Lord in the air.
Knowledge of history of that time shows that this phrase really referred to people coming out from within a walked city to greet a returning King “in the open air outside the city walls”.
Not knowing this has led people astray/ they assume a literal interpretation where believers are on their way heavenward.
There are false teachings by preachers and yes some preach on the rapture falsely.....But the teaching on the rapture is born in the bible -No. Notice a post a bit later:
The false gospel preachers and teachers and so on have been very active with false teachings about 'rapture'... so much so the false outnumbers the true by over 100 to 1.
1 Cor 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Like the miracle of healing which happened instantly.
The Resurrection (aka translation/rapture) has always been associated with the return of Christ and I believe happen at the same time. However, the Scripture give you a little room there, there could be as many as 7 years between the initial taking up of the saints and the wedding feast of the Lamb when all the tribulation saints are added to their number. This is one topic I see no reason to be dogmatic about, we got it wrong the first time Jesus came and we are probably way off in our thinking now. I believe Christ is coming in power and glory and will destroy the armies of the wicked while raising his beloved Church that will reign with him a thousand years. That power that raised Christ from the dead is available to us by faith that we might die to sin and rise to walk in newness of life, we have only to take the promise on faith. What we will experience on that day is nothing to compare to the majesty and joy we as believers will experience when corruptible shall put on incorruptible and we see him as he is.Not exactly. However it is the Resurrection/Rapture. Which means resurrection for those who have passed on, and rapture for those who are alive at the coming of Christ for His saints.
This is NOT the second coming of Christ at all. That will occur after the Marriage of the Lamb (following the Resurrection/Rapture).
Isn’t it possible that the scripture is written to each heart individually? I guess my question is which holds more importance: the scripture or what God tells you in your heart? I would like to believe we all interpret text slightly differently. I’m assuming that the basis/main point is what God would like us to understand. Either way, the importance is that you have repented and have a good relationship with Jesus Christ. If you miss interpreted something it won’t matter that way.It's obvious to me that the other posters here that don't believe in a pre-trib rapture have read the exact same scriptures you have.
The real truth is that the word rapture which the Protestants coined from the Latin rapiemur became popularized in the 18th century in the Americas and since then the word rapture has been used when Christians speak of the bible teaching of the harpazo which is a Greek word - people in America speak English and not Greek or Latin - so the English translation is used - but the teaching of the action of the harpazo is in the Bible since it was first written in GreekWell, sort of. The idea appears to be on the order of perhaps 400 years old, not 200. But, either way, it is a relatively new idea in church history.
Christians should never confuse the trials, tribulations, testings, and martyrdoms of Christians with the judgment and wrath of God against all ungodliness, as displayed in the Great Tribulation and the Tribulation."In this world you will have tribulation, but take courage, I have conquered the world." - John 16:33
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