Is the rapture a lie?

seventysevens said:

I have studied for many many years so i doubt that - thing is you have to study the who what where why and how , each can take a deep study

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And you don't think that many Bible commentators haven't studied just as much as you or if they did they would agree with you.
OK, God Bless

seventysevens said:

Problem is with you approach - IF you really wanted to know YOU would study - since you choose not to you have shown you are willing to follow whatever people say that makes it easy for you to not have to study - that is all on you -
It does not matter to me what you believe - since you cannot refute what I have said already - there is no reason to give you anything else -

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I grew up as Dispensationalist. The doctrine of the rapture was the only thing I knew for the first ~18 years of my life. That's about how old I was when I first met anyone who challenged the doctrine, and it seemed absolutely foolish to me that a Christian could say that the doctrine of the rapture wasn't true because, in my mind, of course it was how could it not be? So I quoted the usual bread and butter rapturist proof texts, such as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. But they went further, they asked me to go read Scripture myself and to show them where it says that Jesus will return prior to "the tribulation" and take all Christians out of the world into heaven.

So I looked.

And I looked.

And nothing. It wasn't there. No where in Scripture.

I did, however, notice something else in my reading, something nobody had ever taught me in my entire lifetime as a Christian, the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead.

Instead of finding anything about Jesus snatching us up from the earth into heaven to escape tribulation, I instead saw a consistent, repeated, and constant emphasis in Scripture about the fact that the Lord will come and the dead will be raised. Not taken into heaven, but resurrected in the body.

This alarmed me, as nobody had ever told me that there would be a resurrection of the dead, only that there would be a "rapture". I wondered if maybe I was wrong in what I was reading, or how I was reading it--then I discovered that what I was reading in Scripture for the first time wasn't just me, it was in fact what had always been believed. It's what the ancient fathers of the Church taught, it's what every theologian, churchman, and teacher in Christianity had taught since the earliest years of Christianity right up until today. The fathers believed this, the medieval theologians believed this, the Protestant Reformers believed this, and every major Christian group and denomination today believed this. It's what Catholics believed, it's what Orthodox believed, it's what Lutherans believed, it's what Methodists believed, it's what Presbyterians believed, it's what Baptists historically believed, and so on.

This again alarmed me, because if I could open up a copy of the Bible and see this, and if it's what was always believed historically, and what virtually all Christians today still believed--then why didn't anyone teach me this? So I spoke to my dad about it, thinking maybe I had been told this but for some reason just never processed it. My dad was perplexed when I brought it up, because he wasn't aware of it either. Then when talking with my Christian friends, both from my Pentecostal church and from another non-denominational church, they thought I was just being weird and told me that of course the rapture is true and that they had never heard of any resurrection before. The reason I didn't know about it, turns out, wasn't simply because I wasn't paying attention, it's because my teachers in the faith--my parents and church leaders--either didn't know anything about this themselves, or simply never talked about it.

This was a seminal moment in my Christian life, it was the impetus that put me on a path toward questioning the things I had been raised to believe without question, and toward an earnest, thorough and continual study and reading of Scripture, to study the history of the Christian Church, and begin studying theology.

So what's my point? My point really is only this: It is precisely because I dedicated myself to the study and pursuit of Holy Scripture that I gave up on the doctrine of the rapture and came to accept the historic and orthodox doctrines of the Christian Church.

I would also encourage people to study these things. Though when you do, you may not like what you find. At least not at first. Don't worry though, turns out good theology and solid exegesis is far better than bad theology and bad heremeneutics. You'll be better for it in the end, and have a far better foundation in your faith to stand upon.

-CryptoLutheran

seventysevens said:

Simple PROVE your claim that I am wrong - you don't want to put time or effort -you cant substantiate anything you say
Until you show that you can prove me wrong -.....

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Burden of proof rests upon the one making a positive claim. That's Debate 101.

-CryptoLutheran

Jesus' Girl said:

I see it a lot being written and been told it. I want to know why people believe it is false.

I consider it my only hope each day. ....

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Do you understand that as of 1800 AD, there were zero theologians and zero preachers were believed in a rapture, at least a rapture separate from the Second Coming?

In one of the Left Behind movies, it blandly says, "All Christians believe in it." Not true.

On the contrary, I grew up as a Southern Baptist. We spent about five hours in church on Sunday. When I graduated from High School, I had never heard of the "rapture." There is no reason I should have.

It is possible that I first encountered the "rapture" on bumper stickers, like "In case of Rapture this car will be unmanned."

Which churches believe in a rapture (separate from the Second Coming)?

The Roman Catholic church does not believe in a Rapture. (Or never heard of it.)
The Eastern Orthodox church does not believe in a Rapture. (Or never heard of it.)
The Lutheran Church does not believe in a Rapture. After all, Martin Luther did not believe in it, since the idea wasn't invented until hundreds of years later.
Presbyterians & Calvinists don't believe in a Rapture. John Calvin did not teach a rapture, since no one had ever heard of such an idea.
Episcopalians/Anglicans do not believe in a Rapture. It's not in any of their creeds.
Methodists do not believe in a Rapture. John Wesley did not teach a rapture, since no one had ever heard of such an idea.
Baptists don't believe in it either. I once astounded a Rapture advocate on CF by pointing out that the Southern Baptist Statement of Faith simply says "God will bring the world to an end in an appropriate way," on the end times.

The Rapture teaching came out of Dispensationalism. I've read books by Dispensationalists and I can't even define what Dispensationalism is. All I can say is that it is a grab bag of absurd notion that appeal to reactionary Christians.

Dale said:

Do you understand that as of 1800 AD, there were zero theologians and zero preachers were believed in a rapture, at least a rapture separate from the Second Coming?

In one of the Left Behind movies, it blandly says, "All Christians believe in it." Not true.

On the contrary, I grew up as a Southern Baptist. We spent about five hours in church on Sunday. When I graduated from High School, I had never heard of the "rapture." There is no reason I should have.

It is possible that I first encountered the "rapture" on bumper stickers, like "In case of Rapture this car will be unmanned."

Which churches believe in a rapture (separate from the Second Coming)?

The Roman Catholic church does not believe in a Rapture. (Or never heard of it.)
The Eastern Orthodox church does not believe in a Rapture. (Or never heard of it.)
The Lutheran Church does not believe in a Rapture. After all, Martin Luther did not believe in it, since the idea wasn't invented until hundreds of years later.
Presbyterians & Calvinists don't believe in a Rapture. John Calvin did not teach a rapture, since no one had ever heard of such an idea.
Episcopalians/Anglicans do not believe in a Rapture. It's not in any of their creeds.
Methodists do not believe in a Rapture. John Wesley did not teach a rapture, since no one had ever heard of such an idea.
Baptists don't believe in it either. I once astounded a Rapture advocate on CF by pointing out that the Southern Baptist Statement of Faith simply says "God will bring the world to an end in an appropriate way," on the end times.

The Rapture teaching came out of Dispensationalism. I've read books by Dispensationalists and I can't even define what Dispensationalism is. All I can say is that it is a grab bag of absurd notion that appeal to reactionary Christians.

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Woa woa woa, slow down mate, you can just refute them,

you don't have to martyr the opposition

RIP debate

The Rapture is not a lie, Jesus is coming back soon!

Matthew 24:27 (MEV)

"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

Matthew 24:29-31 (MEV)

"Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Rapture)

Zyon1 said:

The Rapture is not a lie, Jesus is coming back soon!

Matthew 24:27 (MEV)

"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

Matthew 24:29-31 (MEV)

"Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Rapture)

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Neither of those have to do with the Rapture, just the second coming.

The rapture is the concept that all Christians are going to be take up into heaven before the tribulation.

I don't think anybody is denying Christ is coming back.

Gather does not equate "take into heaven"

☦Marius☦ said:

Neither of those have to do with the Rapture, just the second coming.

The rapture is the concept that all Christians are going to be take up into heaven before the tribulation.

I don't think anybody is denying Christ is coming back.

Gather does not equate "take into heaven"

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Do you have a verse to back all of that up with?

Zyon1 said:

Do you have a verse to back all of that up with?

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The two you just provided? The first one only said Christ was returning, which nobody is debating here, the second one said he would gather his elect from one end of the heavens to the other.

It doesn't say gather "to the heavens" but "from the heavens". Major difference.

This can mean that God will either resurrect those who dwell already in heaven, to begin their life in ressurrection on Earth, or that the people's on the Earth under the heavens that are elect are gathered together. Nowhere does this state their bodies will be gone, and they will be instantly taken up into heaven as the belief of the rapture teaches.

Cement said:

I’m just saying that there is a certain segment of Christians who believe that they will be raptured before tribulation even begins. Unlike the early church which endured great troubles these people believe they won’t suffer any persecution.

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Frankly, since 33 AD Christians have been persecuted and in time of tribulation throughout the world. We may be in comfortable Western settings with standing security and functioning governments. However, our brethren in the Middle East, China, Africa and many more places are in constant danger of execution, imprisonment and physical abuse for their faith. Some risk their lives to be baptized.

So I don't think this is limited to end times tribulation. The difference I see is the time of tribulation is a time of when God pours out His wrath on the earth. It is not a time for 'refining the church' but wrath poured out on those who know God but reject Him. That much is clear from Revelation.

Also, I don't think Christians who believe in a pre-trib rapture adhere to a belief there will be no persecution of the church towards the end. From what I've read most believe the lead up to the rapture, will be a period of great deception and apostasy, will be the church's final evangelical zeal to reach souls with the Gospel across the Earth into all nations.

The usual pejorative is pre trib rapture folks are weak-kneed and want an easy 'out' of the tribulation so they sell the pre trib rapture. That may be the case on blogs and internet sites, but the dispensational authors I've read to learn about this view like Walvoord make no such claim. The claim they make from Scriptures some have already mentioned in this thread. It is that the days will be like the times of Noah and Sodom where wickedness prevails with the super majority of people. Wickedness has advanced in such a way of those days. So we see the church prior to the rapture in a world of wickedness, hostility towards the Gospel, apostasy, hostility and persecution towards Christians as they don't fit the mold of the wicked world. Then the rapture of the church and then God pours out His wrath on the inhabitants of the earth. That seems to be the majority view of the pre-trib rapture adherents. And as I opined on much earlier in the thread their view has Biblical support as does the mid trib view, the pre-wrath view, and the post trib view. I stated that the post trib rapture/resurrection/Second coming view, which is the historic futurist view, has the least tensions with exegesis of Scriptures. Do I think all of the views have some 'sunk' doctrine that influences how they interpret the scriptures? Yes I do.

ViaCrucis said:

That's why many Christians say the rapture is a lie, because it's simply not orthodox Christian teaching, it's not biblical teaching, it's a modern, new doctrine invented less than two centuries ago that is accepted by a very small minority of Christians.

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I don't really care whether something is "orthodox", except as a starting point for Bible study. I reject the Pretrib Rapture because Jesus tells his followers that they'll go through the Tribulation, and that it'll be in the first century. I really do wonder if any pretribbers ever read the Bible, or if all their theology is from crooked preachers taking verses out of context.

"They will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues... this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place."

Is the rapture a lie?

Jesus' Girl said:

I want to know why people believe it is false.

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Those who deny a separate rapture appearance must, of necessity, also deny a littleral millennium reign.

I believe you will find that to be the case here in the forum.

I.e. - if the rapture and the expected second coming in glory are one and the same events - there would be no "natural" people left to populate a literal millennium.

In theology - one error naturally seems to beget another.

"So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him." Luke 8:18

Marvin Knox said:

Is the rapture a lie?

Those who deny a separate rapture appearance must, of necessity, also deny a littleral millennium reign.

I believe you will find that to be the case here in the forum.

I.e. - if the rapture and the expected second coming in glory are one and the same events - there would be no "natural" people left to populate a literal millennium.

In theology - one error naturally seems to beget another.

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Not necessarily. I don't believe in the rapture, but I do believe in the millennium, though I lean towards the idea that we are already in it, as this is the era of the church.

☦Marius☦ said:

Neither of those have to do with the Rapture, just the second coming.

The rapture is the concept that all Christians are going to be take up into heaven before the tribulation.

I don't think anybody is denying Christ is coming back.

Gather does not equate "take into heaven"

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I don't believe you.

☦Marius☦ said:

Not necessarily. I don't believe in the rapture, but I do believe in the millennium, though I lean towards the idea that we are already in it, as this is the era of the church.

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I rest my case.

Kaon said:

There is 1 resurrection, and 1 judgment.

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There's actually two according to Revelation 20:

Revelation 20: NASB
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Marvin Knox said:

Those who deny a separate rapture appearance must, of necessity, also deny a littleral millennium reign.

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Plenty of Chiliasts who don't accept the rapture, so that's simply not true.

But that said, most Christians don't believe in a literal Millennium either, with the exception of a handful of early fathers such as Justin, Irenaeus, and Hippolytus, Chiliasm has largely been a fringe idea in the history of our religion.

-CryptoLutheran

Zyon1 said:

I don't believe you.

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Show where Scripture says Christians are taken directly into heaven by Jesus before a period of tribulation.

All you need to do is offer one passage that says this, that's all.

-CryptoLutheran

Zyon1 said:

The Rapture is not a lie, Jesus is coming back soon!

Matthew 24:27 (MEV)

"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

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In other words: "The Rapture is not a lie. Here's a verse that has nothing to do with a rapture to prove it."

Matthew 24:29-31 (MEV)

"Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Rapture)

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If I were a post-trib believer, I'd lean on this verse. But, I'm not post-tribber and it's stupid to base any doctrine on a single verse (it doesn't matter if that same verse/passage is repeated somewhere else). No where else does the Bible say anything that looks remotely like it supports a post-trib rapture. The pre-tribber is absolutely without excuse, with no verses that even remotely look like they support a pre-trib view.

The references to the stars is symbolic, not literal. Sending his angels to gather the elect is in a symbolic portion of Jesus's discourse, and there's no reason to take it literally any more than taking literally the meaningless impossibility of stars that the stars could fall. Christ's messengers (angels) will gather the saints into the church. After the tribulation, the New Covenant church is finally and fully established.

ViaCrucis said:

Show where Scripture says Christians are taken directly into heaven by Jesus before a period of tribulation.

All you need to do is offer one passage that says this, that's all.

-CryptoLutheran

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After the tribulation, it's best not to disregard a verse.