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Is the President of the LCMS a Bishop?

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BigNorsk

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I always get a bit confused about that. For one, the synod seems very strong in their assertion that the synod is not a church, that synod offices are not in the office of public ministry. So if say the President is to be in the office of public ministry, he needs a position with a congregation.

Okay, that seems clear.

But then, there's the calls for the President or District Presidents to exert church discipline.

I can't get my head wrapped around that. Because if the local congregations are the church, then they do not exert church discipline outside their church.

How can a synod do church discipline when it isn't a church?

Does the synod actually do church discipline or is it actually corporate discipline? In the first, one would be a Bishop or at least a minister or elder. In the second, one would just be acting in the capacity of an officer of the corporation.

If the President is specifically not a church office, it would seem to me to specifically not be a Bishop.

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RadMan

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That's the catch. Some synod board members are also pastors. We have no designation for bishop. The term bishop is a spiritual head of an episcopy or papist church. Since our synod is a corporate structure and has some board members that are also pastors in a local congregation and have a tendency to drag along their "title" all the way to synod offices. Some people like DP Benke fancy themselves a bishop.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Good question Marv.

In my experience I would have to say that they are not Bishops. I'm LCC (formerly LCMS), and I am aware of five situations where Congregations have turned away from Scripture and turned against very confessional Pastors. In all of these situations the inability of DP's (and their unwillingness to get involved) have left these Congregations and Clergy to fend for themselves. In some situations where a DP acted as a Bishop all be it outside their authority the results were often somewhat better, but not always. The way the office of President and District President are set up such intervention could be construed as "Interference", since these Synods are basically Congregationalist in structure. Our Synods are made up of only Congregations. Individuals are members of the "autonomous" Congregation, not the Synod. The only time an individual has entitlement as a member of Synod is when they have been excommunicated, at which time they may appeal to Synod.

In my opinion this is not working very well. Since we elect presidents only from rostered Clergy, it would stand to reason that we should expect them to exercise the Office of the Keys with regard to individual Congregations. At this time their authority would only extend to the removal of a Pastor or Congregation from the roster, with very little authority to admonish and correct.

What do you think?

Mark
 
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BigNorsk

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I would note that according to the 2007 Handbook. He clearly would be a Bishop.
I note that the only requirement for being a minister or in the office of public ministry in a congregation is basically negative, he may be part time if it doesn't interfere with his duties as President. His ecclesiatical duties as President. He is responsible for church discipline on the institutions of the synod.

So according to this, the Presidency itself is clearly an office of public ministry. Because if it wasn't, he couldn't perform the required duties. If he was required to be in a congregational ministry, it would be a requirement, not a permitted as long as deal.

So according to the Handbook, the President is a Bishop. Real clear, at least until I read something else that is going to tell me that he's not. Which I suspect I can find probably in the same Handbooks.

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MarkRohfrietsch

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Is this LCMS?

Mark
 
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BigNorsk

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Here, appears to me to be one conflict.


of voting congregations.


The reason being that I believe that officially, the LCMS holds that ordination is not a permanent thing. That is you can't be ordained, and then leave and just continue on being ordained. So technically, if you aren't called by a congregation, you aren't ordained. But, as already shown, being called by a congregation was optional, indeed subservient to the synod office and only permitted if it did not interfere.

Marv​
 
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BigNorsk

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This is interesting. According to the Commission on Theology and Chruch Relations report on the Ministry.

Clearly, the synod again is a church. Because it says:


The synod is clearly referred to as the "whole church" whereas a local congregation is not the "whole church" but is a "single congregation"​

The document also says the same thing again concerning ordination.​

and​


It actually attacks the idea of a second call at the same time, calling the practice "questionable".​


It continues on to clearly say that the District Presidency is an office of public ministry.​


That said:​


So it would seem that the LCMS has the official position that District Presidents and anyone else required to do ecclesiatical supervision is in the office of public ministry and that second calls are actually not required but rather are questionable.​

Strange, that's a lot different than I've been told by people I assumed knew. I always thought the LCMS taught that synod offices were not offices of public ministry and the synod was not the church. But it appears here to be exactly the opposite of that.

edited to add: I don't know why the quoting function is splitting the quotes like that. Any quotes without my text between are one quote with nothing between them.​

Marv​
 
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RadMan

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The president and council can only exercise there ecclesiastical supervision over synodical matters and not local congregations. Their jurisdiction only extends to the synod offices , seminaries and missions. Being a pastor at a local congregation does not allow them anymore jurisdiction in the synod as it does in a local congregation where the voters make the decision. The congregations are autonomous.

Unfortunately there is a power play within synod to take away the voting privileges of the laity and to have the congregations totally under the jurisdiction of the synod according to their assumption of episcopal polity. This takes away from the original statements of CFW Walther where the congregation has the right to call a pastor and judge doctrine.

As the possessor of all church power, the local congregation must be divinely instituted by God. Walther would quote the Lutheran Confessions to prove that:

1. The full authority of the Gospel belongs to the lay people:

Smalcald Articles Par. 67, Trig. p. 523"For wherever the Church [local congregation] is, there is the authority [command] to administer the Gospel . . . Just as in a case of necessity even a layman absolves, and becomes the minister and pastor of another; as Augustine narrates the story of two Christians in a ship, one of whom baptized the catechumen, who after baptism then absolved the baptizer.")




2. Christ gives supreme and final jurisdiction to the local congregation:

Treatise, Concordia Triglotta, p. 511 par. 24-25"...the keys belong not to the person of one particular man, but to the Church, as many most clear and firm arguments testify. For Christ, speaking concerning the keys adds, Matt. 18, 19: If two or three of you shall agree on earth, etc. THEREFORE HE GRANTS THE KEYS PRINCIPALLY AND IMMEDIATELY TO THE CHURCH, just as also for this reason the Church has principally the right of calling. [For just as the promise of the Gospel belongs certainly and immediately to the entire Church, so the keys belong immediately to the entire Church, because the keys are nothing else than the office whereby this promise is communicated to everyone who desires it, just as it is actually manifest that the Church has the power to ordain ministers of the Church. And Christ speaks in these words:Whatsoever ye shall bind, etc., and indicates to whom He has given the keys, namely, to the Church: Where two or three are gathered together in My name. Likewise CHRIST GIVES SUPREME AND FINAL JURISDICTION TO THE CHURCH, WHEN HE SAYS: TELL IT UNTO THE CHURCH.] Therefore it is necessary that in these passages Peter is the representative of the entire assembly of the apostles, and for this reason they do not accord to Peter any prerogative or superiority, or lordship [which he had, or was to have had, in preference to the other apostles.


3. The Confessions teach that the congregation elects its own pastor.

Treatise, Concordia Tiglotta “69] Lastly, the statement of Peter also confirms this, 1 Pet. 2, 9: Ye are a royal priesthood. These words pertain to the true Church, which certainly has the right to elect and ordain ministers since it alone has the priesthood.” “72] From all these things it is clear that the Church retains the right to elect and ordain ministers.” also Eph. 4:8, 1Pet. 2:9; Acts 6-7, 14:23, Titus 1:7, 1Tim. 3:10)

4. The congregation is above the ministers.:


Treatise, Concordia Triglotta, p. 507, par. 11 “In 1 Cor. 3, 6, Paul makes ministers equal, and teaches that THE CHURCH IS ABOVE THE MINISTERS. Hence superiority or lordship over the Church or the rest of the ministers is not ascribed to Peter [in preference to other apostles]. For he says thus: All things are yours, whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, i.e., let neither the other ministers nor Peter assume for themselves lordship or superiority over the Church; let them not burden the Church with traditions; let not the authority of any avail more than the Word [of God]; let not the authority of Cephas be opposed to the authority of the other apostles, as they reasoned at that time: 'Cephas, who is an apostle of higher rank, observes this; therefore, both Paul and the rest ought to observe this.' Paul removes this pretext from Peter, and denies [Not so, says Paul, and makes Peter doff his little hat, namely, the claim] that his authority is to be preferred to the rest or to the Church." see also Matt. 18:17, Col. 4:17, 1Peter 5:1-3, 2Cor. 8:8


5. The Confessions teach that the congregation is the final tribunal in church discipline.


Trig. 511 Par. 24-25 "Christ gives supreme and final jurisdiction to the church…" also Matt. 18:17-18; Acts 1:15, 23-26; 15:5, 12-13, 22-23; 1Cor. 5:2, 6:2, 10:15, 12:7, 2Cor. 2:6-8, 2Thess: 3:15)

6. The Confessions teach that the sheep judge their shepherd in all doctrine.
Trig. 525 par.72 “… the churches are in duty bound before God, … because Paul, Gal. 1: 7f , enjoins that bishops who teach and defend a godless doctrine and godless services should be regarded as accursed,” also Matt. 7:15-23, 1John 4:1, 1Cor. 10:15, Matt. 23:10, 1Thess. 5:1, Mark 10: 42-44, Acts 17:11, 2Pet. 2:1, 1Cor.14: 29, Rev. 2:2)


7. The Confessions teach that the congregation and not the Synod is “church,” hence synods are human organizations.:

Augsburg Confessions VII & VIII p. 47 “Likewise Christ gives supreme and final jurisdiction to the Church, when He says: ‘Tell it unto the Church.’” Trig. 511 par. 24, also “The Church is the congregation of saints, in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered.”, also Pieper, Vol. III, 421; also Preamble, LCMS Constitution, p. 8, “Reason for the Forming of a Synodical Union: 1. The example of the apostolic church, Acts 15:1-31”)
 
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DaRev

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The Church is indeed the body of believers, which exists within the congregations, thus the LCMS does not use eccesiatical titles such as Bishop for its leaders. But their ecclesiastical roles and functions within the synod are that of "overseer" which is what the word "bishop" means.

What the LCMS desparately needs is more control of their member congregations in terms of doctrine and practice, keeping its member congregations in line with the Scriptures and Confessions. So many congregations over the years have strayed so far from the Biblical and Confessional basis of the Lutheran Church that there is very little "fellowship" even within the synod anymore, despite the attempts of the clergy to teach and practice according to them. For example, I have had numerous discussions here as to why they cannot have a woman as council president or vice president because of the way the council is set up and their function as overseers of some aspects of the functions of the pastoral office. And I am sure that if they had an election during a vacancy, they would do just that, and the synod has no say in the matter. If a congregation wishes to set its own doctrinal polity which is at odds with Scripture and the Confessions, they need to either be corrected or removed from synodical membership.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Again TC is a font of infinite knowledge! Thanks everyone.

So... a SP and/or DP is a Bishop, excepth when he isn't a Bishop?

That sound about right?

Or... a SP and/or DP is a Bishop when they want to be, but not when they don't?

Apart from the Bible and the BOC which are themselves clear and concise it appears that our constitutions in the interest of clarity, are rather ambiguous depending on where you are reading, and how you are interpereting.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I agree 100%.

But yet again I ask my self; if Scripture and the Confessions are so clear, they why do these issues always turn into such a cluster fudge?

Mark
 
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RadMan

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I've been busy all day and will read what has been written here tomorrow, From what I've seen previously and I'm not totally sure is that the Handbook has been revised in the last few years largely in favor of the polity. The Handbook is, or can be, revised in constitutional amendments. I'll have to read up on it.
 
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BigNorsk

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A pretty good summary.

You forgot the other side, the SP and DP's are Bishops and responsible for discipline if there is someone you disagree with, but are not, if they discipline someone you like. Then they are power hungry manipulators of the system.

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BigNorsk

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I agree 100%.

But yet again I ask my self; if Scripture and the Confessions are so clear, they why do these issues always turn into such a cluster fudge?

Mark

Well I'm still working on the scripture but you know what's really kind of a shame? The clearest, easiest to read and understand Augsburg Confession is the Variata.

When Melanchthon wasn't trying to keep out of getting executed he wrote clearer than when his desire was to avoid execution. I don't know where it became the folk legend that the Augsburg Confession was some perfect exposition of exactly what the reformers wanted to say. Melanchthon gave up much, matter of fact, Luther said he gave up too much, quit and come home, and then Melanchthon gave up a bit more and that's the Augsburg Confession.

One guy that was probably responsible for saving everyone at Augsburg doesn't get any credit. Zwingli gave about the most miserable excuse for a confession you ever saw, even the other reformed people there diavowed it. After listening to that, the Lutherans probably sounded like the fountain of truth and wisdom.

I read that and the thing I can't get out of my head is how very many people there are who follow that guy.

At least the Tetrapolitan Confession of Bucer, Hedio and Capito doesn't sound like they were on a week long drunk. If you cut out a couple of sections like the Lord's Supper, it could be Lutheran. After reading Zwingli's confession, I'm surprised Luther even met with him.

History is really a twisted thing.

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RadMan

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Just a quick check of the 2001 Handbook. This preliminary check shows that the synod is not considered as an ecclesiastical governing body.

Handbook 2001

Duties of the President
1. The President has the supervision regarding the doctrine and
the administration of
a. All officers of the Synod;
b. All such as are employed by the Synod;
c. The individual Districts of the Synod;
d. All District Presidents.

Article VII Relation of the Synod to Its Members
*[1.] In its relation to its members the Synod is not an ecclesiastical
government exercising legislative or coercive powers, and with
respect to the individual congregation’s right of self-government it is but
an advisory body. Accordingly, no resolution of the Synod imposing anything
upon the individual congregation is of binding force if it is not in
accordance with the Word of God or if it appears to be inexpedient as far
as the condition of a congregation is concerned.

3.101 Powers and Duties
A. Ecclesiastical
The President shall
1. supervise the doctrine taught and practiced in the Synod, including
all synodwide corporate entities. In the Districts of the Synod, he
shall carry out his ecclesiastical duties through the District’s President.
The President of the Synod has ecclesiastical supervision of all officers
of the Synod and its agencies, the individual Districts of the Synod, and
all District Presidents;
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Marv, you and I could have written the hand-book, and look at the paper we would have saved!
 
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