Is the message of Christ Pacifism?

Apollo Celestio · Sep 12, 2007

I don't know exactly what a just war is. But Christ said himself that he did not come to bring peace, but a sword.. but I doubt he was referring to "i've come to make war.." Unsure would've been a nice option. ><;

Giver · Sep 12, 2007

Epiphoskei said:
Which adresses if the christian can participate in war. Not if the state can conduct war justly.

God said he would judge the world, but the Word that he spoke, would be our judge. The state is not made up of Christians. The state is of the World and Christians are not.

Epiphoskei · Sep 12, 2007

Giver said:
God said he would judge the world, but the Word that he spoke, would be our judge. The state is not made up of Christians. The state is of the World and Christians are not.

Exactly true. But this only agrees with my position, that is to say, that people who try to judge states by biblical laws applying to individual men run into the problem that the Bible has not said what is expected of states.

SoldierOfTheKing · Sep 12, 2007

Giver said:
(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

Doesn't support the case for pacifism. It doesn't say "you are to resist nonviolently". It says "you are not to resist".

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 12, 2007

Giver said:
God said he would judge the world, but the Word that he spoke, would be our judge. The state is not made up of Christians. The state is of the World and Christians are not.

Isaiah 2:3 And many peoples go, and they say go! and we shall ascend to mountain of YHWH, to house of Elohim of Jacob, and He shall direct us from ways of Him, and we shall go in paths of Him. That from Zion she shall go forth a Law, and a Word of YHWH from Jerusalem.
4 And He judges between the nations, and he corrects to many peoples, and they pound swords of them to mattocks, and spears of them to pruners, not he is lifting up nation to nation a sword, and not they are learning further fighting.

WarriorAngel · Sep 13, 2007

Just so ya know, war is punishment on mankind.

Its not to be desired or sought for...
but it is unavoidable.

mont974x4 · Sep 14, 2007

Really? Where does it say that? It's not in the curse from the Fall.

It is a fact of life in a fallen world, but I don't know if I would call it, in and of itself, punishment on mankind. Romans 13 doesn't describe it that way.

And it is to be sought at times, again Romans 13, and God commands it a lot in the OT. God does not change and God would not command His people to sin.

R3quiem · Sep 14, 2007

Well, God in the OT was pretty fond of war. He ordered the Israelites to go to war plenty of times and told them to kill all the women and children and leave no survivors.

As for Jesus,

Matthew 10:34-36
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

Luke 22:35-36
Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
"Nothing," they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Jesus clearly was not for peace. He probably didn't want physical aggression though, from what he said about loving your enemy and turning the other cheek, but he certainly wanted his disciples to be prepared to defend themselves.

Epiphoskei · Sep 14, 2007

Might be more accurate to say that he knew there would be no peace for them, but I doubt he intended for them to defend themselves with force. Peter tried that in the Garden and Jesus didn't exactly approve.

MesaMike · Sep 14, 2007

Luke 22:36 (King James Version)

36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

LLWHA · Sep 15, 2007

dpartlow said:
Believe you me -- I really do not enjoy most of the Anti-war company - I am much more comfortable on the right and I think the right has better intentions on most issues. But I think the right should take a hard look at itsself on this issue and consider whether we really have a consistent message on the sactity of life.

Left and right are forbidden by God.

Politicians and politicks are forbidden by God.

Anyone doing these crimes are to be stoned to death as Law making by men is forbidden by God.

LLWHA · Sep 15, 2007

CountedWise said:
Pacifism is a term most commonly used by those who promote violence as a way to peace. There is no such thing as a "just war". To wage war for nationalism is to sit in judgment of others. That is against Christianity, regardless of how many churches agree with it.
Chaos is not the path to peace.
To look at the question from a larger perspective, peace on earth is not the ultimate goal, becoming a part of the Kingdom of Heaven is. "Pacifism" is what gets you there. If you love this life you will lose the next. Fear God, for only he has the power to let you enter. Do not fear what may happen to you in this life.
The struggle for good and evil is really a battle being waged on a personal level. "Just war" has no meaning. Aggression is a manifestation of politics. Politics have no place in the Kingdom of Heaven.
I prefer to think of pacifism as the means to unity and equality for all. The true path to peace.
"For God so loved the world, He gave his only begotten son. That whosoever should believeth in him, should have everlasting life."
God created us for love, so to truly "be all you can be", be a part of Gods' love. It's the same yesterday, today and forever.

Nice post and welcome aboard!!

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 15, 2007

LLWHA said:
Left and right are forbidden by God.

Politicians and politicks are forbidden by God.

Anyone doing these crimes are to be stoned to death as Law making by men is forbidden by God.

But of course.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 10:31 TheJudeans again lifted up stones, that they might stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them--Many works, have I showed you, noble ones, from my Father: For which of those works are ye stoning Me? 33 The Judeans answered him--Concerning a noble work, are we not stoning thee; but concerning blasphemy/blasfhmiaV <988>,--and because thou being a man, art making thyself a God/qeon <2316>.

Reve 16:21 and great hail (as of talent weight) doth come down out of the heaven upon men, and blaspheme/eblasfhmhsan <987> the men the God because of the scourge of the hail,

anqrwpoi <444> {MEN} ton <3588> {THE} qeon <2316> {GOD,}

LLWHA · Sep 15, 2007

GratiaCorpusChristi said:
His words do not speak against just wars at all, but they speak against every single kind of holy war.

Dear GratiaCorpusChristi, I pray you are well and joyful and that you have a nice weekend.

I'm not buying that at all.

Jesus in Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a "Sword".
Rev. 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the Kingdom and Patience of Christ Jesus, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the Word of God, and for the testimony of Christ Jesus.
1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day (Saturday), and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] LIKE unto the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the breast with a golden breast-plate.
1:14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire;
1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.
1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the First and the Last:
1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the Keys of hell and of death.

In the end times how are you going to Obey God and Jesus it you will not Fight Evil? You as a man cannot Obey God and Not Fight Evil.

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the Day cometh, that shall burn like an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, that it shall leave of them neither root nor branch (nothing).

4:2 But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in The Day that I shall do [this], saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts.
4:4 Remember ye and return to The Law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the Statutes and Judgments.
4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful Day of the "I AM":

3:15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, [they that] tempt God are even saved.
3:16 Then they that feared the "I AM" spoke often one to another: and the "I AM" hearkened, and heard [it], and a Book of Remembrance was written before Him for them that feared the "I AM", and that thought upon His name.
3:17 And they shall be Mine, saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up My special treasure; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him Not.
4:1 For, behold, the Day cometh, that shall burn like an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, that it shall leave of them neither root nor branch (nothing).

Rev.20:12 And I saw the "Dead", small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another Book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life: and the "Dead" were judged out of those things which were written in the Books, according to their works.
20:13 And the "sea" gave up the "Dead" which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their WORKS.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of "Fire". This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of "Fire".

Are you Gods special treasure that will fight evil? Will you Work and Fight to restore His Law and Order?

If not there in always Malachi 4:1 for those that will not Work and Fight to restore Gods Law and Order!!

Jesus in Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a "Sword".

LLTK, LLTF

Eut.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 15, 2007

If not there in always Malachi 4:1 for those that will not Work and Fight to restore Gods Law and Order!!

Jesus in Matt.10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a "Sword".

Hi. The Muslims also take that literally! Allahu Akbar!!!

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 10:34 "No you should be inferring that I came to be casting/balein <906> (5629) Peace upon the land. Not I came to be casting/balein <906> (5629) Peace, but a Sword";

Jeremiah 14:13 And I am saying "Alas, Adonai YHWH! Lo! the prophets ones saying to them--'Not you shall see a Sword and famine, not he shall become to you. That Peace/shalowm of truth, I shall give to you in place, the-this.
14 And YHWH is saying to me "Falsehood the prophets, one prophesying in My Name. Not I sent them, and not I instructed them, and not I spoke to them. Vision of falsehood and divination and forbidden-idol and deceit heart of them. They ones prophesying to you.

http://foru.ms/t5615012-jesus-christ-was-he-sent-for-all-mankind.html
-jesus-christ-was-he-sent-for-all-mankind

Hello.We muslims believe he was sent to the sons of Israel not for all mankind.This doesnt mean the one who follows Him in real does a wrong job but this is God's plan for He sent Muhammed-aleyhissalam-to all mankind.Which proofs do christians have to claim that Jesus was sent to entire humanity and not only to the israelites?

mont974x4 · Sep 15, 2007

LLWHA said:
Left and right are forbidden by God.

Politicians and politicks are forbidden by God.

Anyone doing these crimes are to be stoned to death as Law making by men is forbidden by God.

God started politics. God ordained government. God grants authority to those He chooses. God does not forbid men making laws.

No where are we told to avoid politics, choosing sides based on how His Spirit convicts us, serving in the military, defending ourselves from harm, waging war et al.

tadoflamb · Sep 15, 2007

mont974x4 said:
God started politics. God ordained government. God grants authority to those He chooses. God does not forbid men making laws.

No where are we told to avoid politics, choosing sides based on how His Spirit convicts us, serving in the military, defending ourselves from harm, waging war et al.

Jay's back!!!

Where ya bin? We've missed you!

dpartlow · Sep 16, 2007

I just read 2 Cor. 10 -
We do not war (Carnally No - Spiritually Yes).
This seems like a pretty clear commandment not to war.

Thoughts?

dpartlow · Sep 17, 2007

I'm very open to counter-arguments on this one - but no one has convinced me to the contrary.

I bring not peace but the sword - this is clearly not saying he advocates the sword over peace - it is a reminder that his disciples will be 'thanked with the sword' as He said in the sermon on the mount.

As for all the OT wars - very few were 'ordained by God' and when they are - God does most of the fighting/defending himself.

SoldierOfTheKing · Sep 17, 2007

dpartlow said:
just read 2 Cor. 10 -
We do not war (Carnally No - Spiritually Yes).
This seems like a pretty clear commandment not to war.

Thoughts?

I think Paul is talking about the church. The church is not to war. The church is never to advance the kingdom of Christ by the sword. This is not because war is inherently wrong, but because it simply doesn't serve the church's purpose. The church's mission is to conquer souls, not lands. This is the meaning of John 18:36 "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight". Fighting on behalf of an earthly kingdom is an entirely different matter. I don't see that this applies to individual Christians fighting on behalf of the civil authorities. Incidentally, is acceptable for a Christian to serve in law enforcement? That is also a job that involves taking up arms on behalf of Caesar.

Is the message of Christ Pacifism?

Are today's war's inconsistent with Christ's message of peace?

Yes - War is always wrong

Yes - War is wrong unless comissioned by a true prophet

Yes - Because today's wars don't meet 'just war' criteria

No - Because today's wars do meet 'just war' criteria

Deal with it.

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