Is the KJV more than a translation

NothingIsImpossible · Nov 21, 2017

Jason0047 said:
I already have provided evidence that the KJV is the pure Word of God already.

If you missed it; I will repeat them again.

Three Scriptural Reasons to Trust in A Perfect Word Today.

#1. God's Word claims that it is perfect
God's Word claims that it is perfect (Psalms 12:6) (Psalms 119:140) (Proverbs 30:5) and that it will be preserved for all generations (Psalms 12:7) and it will stand forever (Isaiah 40:8) (1 Peter 1:25). Therefore, seeing Scripture plainly states these facts, it then becomes an issue of a test of your faith in God's Word (See the test the devil gave to Eve in Genesis 3:1); For the Bereans were more noble because they compared the spoken Word of God with the written Word of God (Acts of the Apostles 17:11). In other words, if the Bereans thought the written Word was corrupt in some way they would have no way of really knowing if the spoken Word of God was true or not.

#2. KJV vs. Modern Translations
A simple side by side comparison of the KJV vs Modern Translations shows us that the devil tries to place his name in the Modern Versions.

Many Bible versions say that it is the dragon who is standing on the sea shore in Revelation. This is just evil and wrong.

See Parallel Version for Revelation 13:1 here...

Revelation 13:1 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

See, if you know anything about Bible language, standing on something means that you "own it"; And the devil wants to own you. In the King James, John is standing on the seashore. Yet in many Bible versions the dragon (i.e. the devil) is standing on the seashore.

Why is this a problem?

Let's look at...

Genesis 22:17

"That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;"

Did you catch that? God says to Abraham that He will multiply his seed as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is upon the seashore where he will then possess the gate of his enemies (i.e. the devil and his kingdom). The apostle John who wrote Revelation was Jewish and he was the promised seed of Genesis 22 standing on the seashore in Revelation 13. It was not the dragon or the devil standing on the seashore.

For certain Modern Versions eliminate the part of the passage in Revelation 13:1 that says that John is standing on the seashore (When he refers to himself as "I").

Also, the devil tries to take out key points in important discussions within the Bible (Which can affect doctrine). For example: In Romans 7 Paul talks from the Jew's perspective in keeping the Old Testament Law (Which leads to problems), and he gives us the climax or heart of his message as a solution in Romans 8:1. Now, certain modern translations have eliminated "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Eliminating this passage destroys the whole thrust of Paul's argument. Walking in the Spirit is the key to being in Christ Jesus. You eliminate that and you destroy Paul's argument. Also, 1 John 5:7 is the only verse in the Bible that is the clearest and most concise teaching on the Godhead (i.e. the Trinity).

#3. Biblical Numerics
Bible Numbers that glorify God and His Word. (Note: These are not equidistant letter sequences or numbers that attempt to get one to have a special dream, or to divine the future in some way - Striving to foretell the future is forbidden in the Bible). Numbers are something that we deal with in our everyday life and all things glorify God. So obviously the numbers in God's Word would naturally glorify Him in some way. What am I talking about? Check out this video on Numbers & the Greek New Testament.

Sevens in the Bible - Chuck Missler:

Also, here is a video series by Mike Hoggard that talks about the number 7 in the King James.

King James Code - Number 7 - Mike Hoggard (Part 1):

King James Code - Number 7 - Mike Hoggard (Part 2):

Now, while I may not agree with Mike on everything he teaches in the Bible nor on the way he teaches Bible numbers in every example, I have found that he has made some startling discoveries. Discoveries that do not appear in the modern translations but only in the King James.

Lucifer means light bearer.

As I said before this is fitting because the devil wore gemstones that acted like little light bearers upon himself. Gemstones reflect light. Satan is also called an "angel of light" in Scripture. Light bearer. It's fitting. Lucius derives from Latin word Lux (gen. lucis), meaning "light"

But to say that Satan is the "BRIGHT and Morning Star" and or "Day Star" is just wrong. The BRIGHT and morning star or the Day Star is the sun. In fact, Malachi 4:2 refers to the sun of righteousness (Which of course is Jesus).

Revelation 22:16 says, "Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

So again. You are wrong and you are not following the line of logic here. The devil is clearly trying to take on a name of Christ. This is wrong and evil. CEV, GNT, NIRV say that he is the BRIGHT and morning star!

Lucifer means "light bearer." It can mean "Day Star." But Modern Translations have called him the BRIGHT and morning star in Isaiah 14:12. This is a problem because it is the exact title given to our Lord Jesus Christ in Revelation. There is a difference between a regular "Day Star" and a BRIGHT and morning star. Today, with the passage of time, the word "Lucifer" has come to refer to as the devil (despite it meaning simply "light bearer" or "Day Star" in the Latin). Words change and evolve with a culture over the passage of time. The word "gay" could once be used in passing conversation without anyone turning any heads. Today, you say that word and you have to be very careful.

I guess I have to ask this of Jason0047, since it seems you believe you are right no matter what evidence is given. Would it be fair to say your breaking the rule of this section about "Do not teach or promote sinless perfectionism."? It seems your saying that JKV is right period and you do not care about anything else. And it very much feels like your putting down everyone is if you are perfect. I mean you do seem to admit KJV is not perfect, but then you act better than everyone. Even being sarcastic like "Do you own a time machine?". Couldn't that be said of you then? Do you own a time machine to know KJV is close to the original bible/writings?

On top of that you sort of made your argument for your case look bad when you first said "I already have provided evidence that the KJV is the pure Word of God already" but then not far below it you #1 reason is "God's Word claims that it is perfect". Thats contradictory then. The KJV is not the original bible, the original bible was mostly written in Hebrew. So the KJV is not perfect then or pure as you stated. The only pure/perfect book is the original hebrew texts then.

I'd go as far as to say its blasphemy to call the KJV (or any version) perfect or pure. The Word is God and God is the Word. It is perfect. Anything after the original transcripts/texts is not 100% perfect. The verses are of course perfect in terms of they are translated from the original. However words have changed over time. And with some groups adding books, some taking away...etc, everything is distorted at this time.

I have to agree with the person above me, well above you, you have no willingness to listen to anything that has to be said. As the bible would say:

Proverbs 12:1
Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

Proverbs 15:32
Whoever ignores instruction despises himself, but he who listens to reproof gains intelligence.

Well and given how you are acting:

Proverbs 11:2
When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom.

Proverbs 16:5
Everyone who is arrogant in heart is an abomination to the Lord; be assured, he will not go unpunished.

Proverbs 8:13
The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.

friend of · Nov 21, 2017

As I understand it, KJV was produced by a team of polyglots. These would be capable to breaking the words of the Bible at the time down to their most basic elements, to build KJV from the ground up.

friend of · Nov 21, 2017

I like NKJV, ESV, NASB and I'm starting to like NIV

I think the internal message will be retained, and if we study enough across all translations, we'll be guided to the answers and understanding which God wants us to have.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 21, 2017

NothingIsImpossible said:
I guess I have to ask this of Jason0047, since it seems you believe you are right no matter what evidence is given. Would it be fair to say your breaking the rule of this section about "Do not teach or promote sinless perfectionism."?

No. That is a false accusation. Nowhere did I teach Sinless Perfection within this thread.

You said:
It seems your saying that JKV

Actually, that would be the... KJV.

You said:
is right period and you do not care about anything else.

Faith is very important to God because without faith it is impossible to please Him; And faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). So it is important that we have the right Word of God that represents the true faith in Jesus Christ for our world today.

You said:
And it very much feels like your putting down everyone is if you are perfect.

Where did I put down people?
Where did I act as if I was perfect?

You said:
I mean you do seem to admit KJV is not perfect, but then you act better than everyone.

The KJV is perfect, but that does not mean that is easiest to read always. That does not mean it is flawed, though. Remember, Jesus spoke in parables.

You said that I act better than everyone.
Please show me where I did that. Post #'s please.

You said:
Even being sarcastic like "Do you own a time machine?". Couldn't that be said of you then? Do you own a time machine to know KJV is close to the original bible/writings?

Jesus used sarcasm.
Paul used sarcasm.

Do I own a time machine to know if the KJV is closest to the original writings?

You miss the point I was trying to make. My point is one of Historical Science vs. Observational Science.

In other words, I primarily seek to look to how Scripture exists today when it comes to my faith.
I do a fruits test on current Bibles in my own language to see if there is any proof or evidence that God's Word was in fact preserved in my own language. I do a fruits test to see if other Bibles say things that attack the good ways of my Lord (like the blood atonement, the deity of Christ, holinesss, etc.).

You said:
On top of that you sort of made your argument for your case look bad when you first said "I already have provided evidence that the KJV is the pure Word of God already" but then not far below it you #1 reason is "God's Word claims that it is perfect". Thats contradictory then. The KJV is not the original bible, the original bible was mostly written in Hebrew. So the KJV is not perfect then or pure as you stated. The only pure/perfect book is the original hebrew texts then.

I'd go as far as to say its blasphemy to call the KJV (or any version) perfect or pure. The Word is God and God is the Word. It is perfect. Anything after the original transcripts/texts is not 100% perfect. The verses are of course perfect in terms of they are translated from the original. However words have changed over time. And with some groups adding books, some taking away...etc, everything is distorted at this time.

God's Word is perfect with the KJV. Words may have been lost or gained in the translation of another language, but it does not change the communicated message of God's Word. God's Word can still be perfect in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and the English.

You said:
I have to agree with the person above me, well above you, you have no willingness to listen to anything that has to be said. As the bible would say:

Proverbs 12:1
Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

Proverbs 15:32
Whoever ignores instruction despises himself, but he who listens to reproof gains intelligence.

Well and given how you are acting:

Proverbs 11:2
When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom.

Proverbs 16:5
Everyone who is arrogant in heart is an abomination to the Lord; be assured, he will not go unpunished.

Proverbs 8:13
The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.

Usually when an argument cannot be made to defend one's position, they resort to attacking the individual or putting them down in some way. This shows the weakness of your own argument. For you should not have to resort to attacking me if there is sufficient evidence to bring down the idea that the KJV is the pure of God for today. Then again, this is not the first time I have been attacked over my stand on the KJV, and I am sure it will not be the last (Lord willing).

Anyways, I hope you understand one day where I am coming from.
May God bless you;
And may you please be well.

gordonhooker · Nov 21, 2017

DamianWarS said:
There seems a specific culture that looks at the KJV as the supreme authority of the written word of God above all else. I have a hard time following this logic as there is a whole lot of history before the KJV and after the KJV in thousands of languages that it seems rather arbitrary to pick the KJV above all else. This culture feels very ethnocentric I might add which then dips into offensive areas. Should not our quest in determining responsible scripture be a little more sophisticated and more focused at our mission?

Yes it is just another translation of the Bible nothing more nothing less, and it shared the problems with any other translation from one language to another. I know that there are some people/groups out there that think it is more than what it really is but I would suggest that is simply wishful thinking in my humble opinion.

friend of · Nov 22, 2017

@Jason0047

Is there any reason you seem so combative...?

Danoded · Nov 22, 2017

One only needs to look at the kind of 'translations' being made by 'bible s' of today to see how they are rooted in evil.

gordonhooker · Nov 22, 2017

Danoded said:
One only needs to look at the kind of 'translations' being made by 'bible s' of today to see how they are rooted in evil.

Welcome to the forum.

Are you saying all modern translations of the Bible are evil? If so why would any other translation be any different and how would you know anyway?

Danoded · Nov 22, 2017

gordonhooker said:
Welcome to the forum.

Are you saying all modern translations of the Bible are evil? If so why would any other translation be any different and how would you know anyway?

Thanks for the welcome.

I've looked online for side by side comparisons between the KJB and other 'bibles' of today, and the changes they make are nothing short of peculiar. I may be mistaken, but I think some authors which inspired many of the translations today were connected to the occult. Furthermore, I see no reason as to how there can be more than one Bible when God's Word is perfect (which can only be in one case, the KJB).

gordonhooker · Nov 22, 2017

Danoded said:
Thanks for the welcome.

I've looked online for side by side comparisons between the KJB and other 'bibles' of today, and the changes they make are nothing short of peculiar. I may be mistaken, but I think some authors which inspired many of the translations today were connected to the occult. Furthermore, I see no reason as to how there can be more than one Bible when God's Word is perfect (which can only be in one case, the KJB).

OOOOKKKKKAAAAYYYY well will leave that one with you and flick the wotthe bit......

Quasiblogo · Nov 22, 2017

Jason0047 said:
The Reina Valera Gómez 2010?
If so, I would endorse that as being a Spanish version of the KJV.

You might like this: Reina-Valera - Wikipedia. I need to get a KJV/Reina VLera Bible. I was at a pulpit once, translating for an English-speaking minister, but I had an awkward NIV/RV Bible. The brother was reading from the end of Mark in the NIV, which cuts short. Knowing that my Hispanic brothers by memory expected more, I finished out the chapter in Spanish. The preacher looked at me puzzled, wondering what I was saying . I had a mischievous feeling that I was sharing more of the Word.

Quasiblogo · Nov 22, 2017

Danoded said:
Thanks for the welcome.

I've looked online for side by side comparisons between the KJB and other 'bibles' of today, and the changes they make are nothing short of peculiar. I may be mistaken, but I think some authors which inspired many of the translations today were connected to the occult. Furthermore, I see no reason as to how there can be more than one Bible when God's Word is perfect (which can only be in one case, the KJB).

Come on. Really? I think that most tasked with helping to use codices to translate into the language of a newly found tribe would think differently. They might enjoy the KJV, but not in that exalted a way.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 22, 2017

friend of said:
@Jason0047

Is there any reason you seem so combative...?

Do not confuse my stand for the truth with a lack of love.
I can tell a man in love with a fervent passion that the bridge is out up ahead.
He may misinterpret me as being blindly aggressive (when that is not the case); But it would not change the reality of the situation.

Also, we are in a spiritual war. Jesus says,

34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."
(Matthew 10:34-39).

Paul says,

10 "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:"
(Ephesians 6:10-17).

3 "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; )
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
(2 Corinthians 10:3-5).

16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
(2 Timothy 3:16-17).

10 "Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light." (Ephesians 5:10-13).

Bible Highlighter · Nov 22, 2017

Danoded said:
I've looked online for side by side comparisons between the KJB and other 'bibles' of today, and the changes they make are nothing short of peculiar. I may be mistaken, but I think some authors which inspired many of the translations today were connected to the occult. Furthermore, I see no reason as to how there can be more than one Bible when God's Word is perfect (which can only be in one case, the KJB).

gordonhooker said:
OOOOKKKKKAAAAYYYY well will leave that one with you and flick the wotthe bit......

If you put stock in man made history, many of your Modern Translations are based upon Westcott and Horts' Greek "Critical Text" (See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westcott-Hort); And they do not really appear to be true Christians because they were into the occult and said things that were blasphemous to the faith according to their own written works.

Brooke Westcott said in May of 1860:

“All I hold is, that the more I learn, the more I am convinced that fresh doubts come from my own ignorance, and that at present I find the presumption in favour of the absolute truth I reject the word infallibility of Holy Scripture over whelming. Of course I feel difficulties which at present I cannot solve, and which I never hope to solve. ” (Westcott, The Life and Letters of Brook Foss Westcott, Vol. I, p.207.)

Westcott also said,

"I reject the word infallibility of Holy Scripture overwhelming." (Westcott, The Life and Letters of Brook Foss Westcott, Vol. I, p.207).

Here are a few more quotes from Westcott and Hort:

“Our Bible as well as our Faith is a mere compromise.” (Westcott, On the Canon of the New Testament, p. vii).

“Evangelicals seem to me perverted. . .There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority, especially the authority of the Bible.” (Hort, The Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, Vol. I, p.400)

“Dr. Wilbur Pickering writes that, Hort did not hold to a high view of inspiration.” (The Identity of the New Testament Text, p.212)

“He never speaks of Himself directly as God, but the aim of His revelation was to lead men to see God in Him.” (Westcott, The Gospel According to St. John, p. 297).

“(John) does not expressly affirm the identification of the Word with Jesus Christ.” (Westcott, Ibid., p. 16).

“(Rev. 3:15) might no doubt bear the Arian meaning, the first thing created.” (Hort, Revelation, p.36).

"The thought (of John 10:29) is here traced back to its most absolute form as resting on the essential power of God in His relation of Universal Fatherhood." (Westcott, St. John, p. 159).

"I confess I have no repugnance to the primitive doctrine of a ransom paid to Satan. I can see no other possible form in which the doctrine of a ransom is at all tenable; anything is better than the doctrine of a ransom to the father." (Hort, The First Epistle of St. Peter 1:1-2:17, p. 77).

Is there any wonder why the deity of Christ, the blood atonement, salvation, holiness is watered down by comparison to the KJV?

Is there any wonder why the devil's name is in places where God's name should be there instead?

Is there any wonder 1 John 5:7 was taken out?

Surely these changes in the manuscripts aligned better with their beliefs. So that is why they clinged to using them instead of the Textus Receptus manuscripts.

he-man · Nov 22, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Sigh. It is illogical to assume that Satan (or whatever you want to call him) has not corrupted God's Word in some way. Do you think the Queens James Bible is not a corruption? How about New World Translation? To think the devil is so easy to spot with these kinds of Bibles and yet to think he cannot subtely try to eliminate truths in God's Word with other Bibles is to undermine the enemy and his work.
Scripture tells us not to be ignorant of the devil's devices. We know from Scripture that one of his tactics is to change God's Word. We see this when he changes God's Word subtley with Eve and later with Jesus.
Side Note: As for your erroneous assumption that "Lucifer" is not a name of the devil or Satan: In Isaiah 14:12, the devil's name "Lucifer" is replaced with "Day Star" or the "Morning Star." Yes, I am aware that "morning stars" are angels in the book of Job. But Modern Translations also say this is the Shining Star or the Son of the Dawn. Why?
Jesus says, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." (Revelation 22:16). So Jesus is the BRIGHT and MORNING star! Yet, the individual in Isaiah 14:12 in Modern Translations is called the shining (bright) and morning star or the Day Star, etc. So the devil is trying to be like the most high here. He is taking a similar sounding title of Jesus in Isaiah 14:12. For where is the bright and morning star up in the sky? It is the sun. That is why He is called the bright and morning star because the sun is bright and rises in the morning. Also, Lucifer means "light bearer." Scripture tells us this is what it means. "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." (2 Corinthians 11:14). The word "angel" also means "messenger." So 2 Corinthians 11:14 is saying that Satan is a light messenger or light bearer. In fact, when Satan is described with having all kinds of jewelry on him, it was symbolic of who he was. Certain gemstones refract light. They are not light themselves, but they merely reflect whatever light is in existence. Gemstones are like little light bearers. So how fitting the name "Lucifer" is for the devil. Yet, Modern Translations seek to give the devil a name that is similar to Jesus. This is wrong (of course).

Isaiah 14:4 says very specifically "take up this proverb againt the King of Babylon" so it is the King of Babylon being addressed here and not a ficticious devil. That makes your whole dialog a supposition that is an untruth. All modern scholars recognize that this is a false interpetation and it is addresses to the King of Babylon who was later killed and there was no grave found for him. Yes, your devil is tranformed into an angel of light by people who do not know that he does not exist. The exact word is "masquerading" as an angel of Light.

JES1023 · Nov 22, 2017

JackRT said:
Here is a good example.

If you have been paying attention to more recent translations of the Gospel of John, you will have noticed that John 7:53 - 8:11—the story of the woman caught in adultery of whom Jesus says, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her"—has been getting some interesting treatment by the scholars. The evidence that it was not an original part of this gospel is clear. The verses are absent from a wide array of early and diverse witnesses (papyrus 66, papyrus 75, Aleph [Codex Sinaiticus], B [Codex Vaticanus] and a host of others), and there is evidence that some manuscripts of John place these verses after John 7:36, some after John 7:52, some after John 21:25, and one manuscript even has it in the Gospel of Luke after Luke 21:38.

And this prove that many scholars need to look into Jewish Festivals to understand this passage; which by the way Augustine even mentioned many where taken out of the Bible thinking that it was to vulgar and gave credence to practicing sin.

Now the Jews' feast of Tabernacles was at hand.
John 7:2
The Apostle John tells us these events happen during the Jewish Festival of Tabernacle (also known as Booths and Sukkot). This is a 7 day long event; Leviticus 23:33-44) Moses also speaks of this Festival in Numbers chapter 29 verses 12 thru 40. But he also spoke of a 8th day celebration in which the children of Israel weren't require to stay in Tabernacles it was a special celebration; Leviticus 23:36.

But we see Jesus speaking on the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles:
37) In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38) He that believeth on Me, as the scripture hath said, out his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39) (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 7:37-39
So we are told that Jesus spoke the above words on the last day of Tabernacles, which is of importance because the Jewish day began sunset the night before and ends at sunset of that day. So at sunset we see the eight day began.

Which means the statement which seems to confuse many scholars who question it; actually gives great proof for it, that is this verse:
And every man went unto his own house.
John 7:53
I have read of scholars actually questioning why is this verse here, proving they have no understanding of our Jewish Roots. Every man would have gone home that night because the feast was over. So this give good evidence that this is were this passage belongs.

More evidence is from the Book of Jeremiah. For in John 7:37-39, Christ announced that if we believe in Him we would have rivers of living water flowing from us. Not only is this a fulfillment of Old Testament/Tanakh Prophecy it even tells us what Jesus wrote on the ground the first time and the second time.

O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake Thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from Me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the Foundation of Living Water.
Jeremiah 17:13
So we see Jesus announcing Himself as the Foundation of Living Water in John 7:38. And the very next day we see religious leaders who had already departed from Him, now totally forsaken the Christ as they try to ensnare Him in a trap. So in John 8:6 we see Jesus write Jeremiah 17:13 in the ground. But these leaders who knew Him; but there was no way He should have know many of their names, watch in horror as Christ wrote everyone of their names in the earth.

Yes I know to many this is just a chance happening, but I believe that God knew that people would tamper with His Word and give to all who desire to know His Truth His landmarks, Proverbs 22:28; 23:10.

And no i am not a KJVO; but very close to a TRO. My view is I would not recommend anything that doesn't have a Textus Receptus base, but let each go with the Bible Version(s) that they feel the Holy Spirit will led them to read.

he-man · Nov 22, 2017

JES1023 said:
And this prove that many scholars need to look into Jewish Festivals to understand this passage; which by the way Augustine even mentioned many where taken out of the Bible thinking that it was to vulgar and gave credence to practicing sin.

Now the Jews' feast of Tabernacles was at hand.
John 7:2
The Apostle John tells us these events happen during the Jewish Festival of Tabernacle (also known as Booths and Sukkot). This is a 7 day long event; Leviticus 23:33-44) Moses also speaks of this Festival in Numbers chapter 29 verses 12 thru 40. But he also spoke of a 8th day celebration in which the children of Israel weren't require to stay in Tabernacles it was a special celebration; Leviticus 23:36.

But we see Jesus speaking on the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles:
37) In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38) He that believeth on Me, as the scripture hath said, out his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39) (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 7:37-39
So we are told that Jesus spoke the above words on the last day of Tabernacles, which is of importance because the Jewish day began sunset the night before and ends at sunset of that day. So at sunset we see the eight day began.

Which means the statement which seems to confuse many scholars who question it; actually gives great proof for it, that is this verse:
And every man went unto his own house.
John 7:53
I have read of scholars actually questioning why is this verse here, proving they have no understanding of our Jewish Roots. Every man would have gone home that night because the feast was over. So this give good evidence that this is were this passage belongs.

More evidence is from the Book of Jeremiah. For in John 7:37-39, Christ announced that if we believe in Him we would have rivers of living water flowing from us. Not only is this a fulfillment of Old Testament/Tanakh Prophecy it even tells us what Jesus wrote on the ground the first time and the second time.

O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake Thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from Me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the Foundation of Living Water.
Jeremiah 17:13
So we see Jesus announcing Himself as the Foundation of Living Water in John 7:38. And the very next day we see religious leaders who had already departed from Him, now totally forsaken the Christ as they try to ensnare Him in a trap. So in John 8:6 we see Jesus write Jeremiah 17:13 in the ground. But these leaders who knew Him; but there was no way He should have know many of their names, watch in horror as Christ wrote everyone of their names in the earth.

Yes I know to many this is just a chance happening, but I believe that God knew that people would tamper with His Word and give to all who desire to know His Truth His landmarks, Proverbs 22:28; 23:10.

And no i am not a KJVO; but very close to a TRO. My view is I would not recommend anything that doesn't have a Textus Receptus base, but let each go with the Bible Version(s) that they feel the Holy Spirit will led them to read.

Yes,and the Codex Sinaiticus uncial does not include Jn 7:53 or beyond, so the whole thing is spurious and was added to the scripture at a later date.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 22, 2017

he-man said:
Isaiah 14:4 says very specifically "take up this proverb againt the King of Babylon" so it is the King of Babylon being addressed here and not a ficticious devil. That makes your whole dialog a supposition that is an untruth. All modern scholars recognize that this is a false interpetation and it is addresses to the King of Babylon who was later killed and there was no grave found for him. Yes, your devil is tranformed into an angel of light by people who do not know that he does not exist. The exact word is "masquerading" as an angel of Light.

This thread is not about the devil being imaginary. If you want to discuss this off topic point, then please start another thread.

Thank you;
And may God bless you.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 22, 2017

JES1023 said:
And this prove that many scholars need to look into Jewish Festivals to understand this passage; which by the way Augustine even mentioned many where taken out of the Bible thinking that it was to vulgar and gave credence to practicing sin.

Now the Jews' feast of Tabernacles was at hand.
John 7:2
The Apostle John tells us these events happen during the Jewish Festival of Tabernacle (also known as Booths and Sukkot). This is a 7 day long event; Leviticus 23:33-44) Moses also speaks of this Festival in Numbers chapter 29 verses 12 thru 40. But he also spoke of a 8th day celebration in which the children of Israel weren't require to stay in Tabernacles it was a special celebration; Leviticus 23:36.

But we see Jesus speaking on the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles:
37) In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38) He that believeth on Me, as the scripture hath said, out his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39) (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 7:37-39
So we are told that Jesus spoke the above words on the last day of Tabernacles, which is of importance because the Jewish day began sunset the night before and ends at sunset of that day. So at sunset we see the eight day began.

Which means the statement which seems to confuse many scholars who question it; actually gives great proof for it, that is this verse:
And every man went unto his own house.
John 7:53
I have read of scholars actually questioning why is this verse here, proving they have no understanding of our Jewish Roots. Every man would have gone home that night because the feast was over. So this give good evidence that this is were this passage belongs.

More evidence is from the Book of Jeremiah. For in John 7:37-39, Christ announced that if we believe in Him we would have rivers of living water flowing from us. Not only is this a fulfillment of Old Testament/Tanakh Prophecy it even tells us what Jesus wrote on the ground the first time and the second time.

O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake Thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from Me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the Foundation of Living Water.
Jeremiah 17:13
So we see Jesus announcing Himself as the Foundation of Living Water in John 7:38. And the very next day we see religious leaders who had already departed from Him, now totally forsaken the Christ as they try to ensnare Him in a trap. So in John 8:6 we see Jesus write Jeremiah 17:13 in the ground. But these leaders who knew Him; but there was no way He should have know many of their names, watch in horror as Christ wrote everyone of their names in the earth.

Yes I know to many this is just a chance happening, but I believe that God knew that people would tamper with His Word and give to all who desire to know His Truth His landmarks, Proverbs 22:28; 23:10.

And no i am not a KJVO; but very close to a TRO. My view is I would not recommend anything that doesn't have a Textus Receptus base, but let each go with the Bible Version(s) that they feel the Holy Spirit will led them to read.

I am not your standard cookie cutter KJVO person. I use Modern Translations to help update the 1600's English in the KJV. But my final word of authority is the KJV and TR (Textus Receptus). While I prefer using the English, I have been known to on rare occasion use the Hebrew and Greek (But I rely more heavily on the English because it is a language that I or you, or the guy next door cannot fiddle with without raising any alarms). I am thankful to God for discussions like these. For I learn every time I have them. I may not always agree with all my brothers and sisters on this point, but I think it is important to bring up because it is about having faith in God.

Anyways, I want to say that I love the majority of your post. Very cool. I never knew before fully what Jesus wrote down on the ground. This sounds like the most likely explanation of what He had written down.

Thank you for sharing this.

May God bless you greatly today for this.
It definitely is a treasure that makes me smile and feel joyful.

*Gives you a big hug in the Lord*

Bible Highlighter · Nov 22, 2017

JES1023 said:
And this prove that many scholars need to look into Jewish Festivals to understand this passage; which by the way Augustine even mentioned many where taken out of the Bible thinking that it was to vulgar and gave credence to practicing sin.

Now the Jews' feast of Tabernacles was at hand.
John 7:2
The Apostle John tells us these events happen during the Jewish Festival of Tabernacle (also known as Booths and Sukkot). This is a 7 day long event; Leviticus 23:33-44) Moses also speaks of this Festival in Numbers chapter 29 verses 12 thru 40. But he also spoke of a 8th day celebration in which the children of Israel weren't require to stay in Tabernacles it was a special celebration; Leviticus 23:36.

But we see Jesus speaking on the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles:
37) In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38) He that believeth on Me, as the scripture hath said, out his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39) (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 7:37-39
So we are told that Jesus spoke the above words on the last day of Tabernacles, which is of importance because the Jewish day began sunset the night before and ends at sunset of that day. So at sunset we see the eight day began.

Which means the statement which seems to confuse many scholars who question it; actually gives great proof for it, that is this verse:
And every man went unto his own house.
John 7:53
I have read of scholars actually questioning why is this verse here, proving they have no understanding of our Jewish Roots. Every man would have gone home that night because the feast was over. So this give good evidence that this is were this passage belongs.

More evidence is from the Book of Jeremiah. For in John 7:37-39, Christ announced that if we believe in Him we would have rivers of living water flowing from us. Not only is this a fulfillment of Old Testament/Tanakh Prophecy it even tells us what Jesus wrote on the ground the first time and the second time.

O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake Thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from Me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the Foundation of Living Water.
Jeremiah 17:13
So we see Jesus announcing Himself as the Foundation of Living Water in John 7:38. And the very next day we see religious leaders who had already departed from Him, now totally forsaken the Christ as they try to ensnare Him in a trap. So in John 8:6 we see Jesus write Jeremiah 17:13 in the ground. But these leaders who knew Him; but there was no way He should have know many of their names, watch in horror as Christ wrote everyone of their names in the earth.

Yes I know to many this is just a chance happening, but I believe that God knew that people would tamper with His Word and give to all who desire to know His Truth His landmarks, Proverbs 22:28; 23:10.

And no i am not a KJVO; but very close to a TRO. My view is I would not recommend anything that doesn't have a Textus Receptus base, but let each go with the Bible Version(s) that they feel the Holy Spirit will led them to read.

Also, another problem I see with the removal of the story of the woman caught in the act of adultery is that it gives us a second testimony to Jesus saying, "sin no more." (John 5:14 cf. John 8:11).

It also gives a another witness to Jesus first coming was not to judge but to save, as well. It shows a stark contrast between the Old and New Testaments in the followers of the Most High God behave. We do not seek to execute judgment like the nation of Israel did, but we seek to love and do good towards our enemies (Thereby being perfect like our Heavenly Father is perfect).

If an addition was made to Scripture that was false, then bad fruit and not good fruit would be evident in that addition. That is why I am heavily against the idea of those who say that 1 John 5:7 was added later. It not a truth that is bad but it is actually really really really really ..... really important to have in our Bibles. For it is the only verse that point blank describes the Trinity.

Not only that, but history tells us that 1 John 5:7 was in the Holy Scriptures in early years of the New Testament, as well.

A Trail of Evidence:

But during this same time, we find mention of 1 John 5:7, from about 200 AD through the 1500s. Here is a useful timeline of references to this verse:

200 AD Tertullian wrote "which three are one" based on the verse in hisAgainst Praxeas, chapter 25.
250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitateagainst the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
550 AD Old Latin ms r has it
550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it
800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
1500 AD ms 61 has the verse
Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.

Source Used:
Is is true that 1 John 5:7 was not in any Greek manuscripts before the 1600s?
(Important Note: I may not believe everything website may believe or says; I am merely in agreement with this particular article).

Is the KJV more than a translation

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