Is the Cross an Idol???

butterflyinchrist · Jun 9, 2005

Logicalthinker said:
I am not a false witness. I speak the truth and the truth hurts. Anyone defending their right to wear vain silly trinkets of our Lord Saviors Killing Device. Is the False witness. A Wolf in sheeps clothing.

Yes the truth does hurt but just because something hurts or is a little controversial doesn't mean it's the truth! You are hurting people right now by calling things that people hold dear to them "vain silly trinkets". I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that actually worships the cross. At the end of the day you are making something out of nothing. I respect where you're coming from and I can kinda see your point but NO ONE IS WORSHIPPING THE CROSS! And furthermore no one wears it because it is how Jesus died. THey wear it because it keeps them humble. It reminds them everyday of the terrible price we were bought at and how we should be living our live ie. boundless love and sacrifice for others!

Quijote · Jun 9, 2005

Logicalthinker said:
You do repeat yourself eveytime you do it. That is rambling.

repetition does not equal rambling

butterflyinchrist · Jun 9, 2005

Quijote said:
repetition does not equal rambling

I like your style.

Quijote · Jun 9, 2005

Logicalthinker said:
Separate yourself from what is unclean,
The catholic faith has aloud Idols in their church in the form of saints and the cross. Plus they call their ministers father and the pope Holy Father. Which is a sin
matthew 23:9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Lol, I guess St. Paul forgot about this when he wrote in Romans 9:10 (maybe he had not read Matthew when he wrote Romans? )

10(A)And not only this, but there was (B)Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;

Or the many times he refers to Timothy and Titus as his "son"? (1Cor4:17; 1Tim1:2; 2Tim1:2; Phil2:22; Titus1:4; Philem 10)?
Guess St. Paul was also "unclean"?

Lastly, how about what St. Paul says in 1Cor 4:14-15?

14I do not write these things to (A)shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved (B)children.
15For if you were to have countless (C)tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in (D)Christ Jesus I (E)became your father through the (F)gospel.

There goes St. Paul...leading us into uncleanliness!

logicalthinker said:

Wash you hands clean and find the truth. Now I know the truth can hurt but it is the truth, let go of what you have been taught. One must read the Bible instead of being told whats in it. and I would love for you to run from the church and find the complete truth. Jesus said the truth will set you free.

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Following what it is written in the Bible by St. Paul vs. following what your interpretation of the Bible says.......not a hard choice

logicalthinker said:

It has me. Search your heart. You might think me condeming people but the truth is I care. I want all of us to know the truth. Satan will fool the whole world it says in the bible. But with everyone looking for him, one must wonder how he will fool us. Well about 1800 yrs ago the catholic church was created. It has a bad foundation. Took the symbol of Tummaz and the killing device of our savior and made it a holy symbol. Than the man made saints and praying to Mary the mother of Jesus, calling the ministers father. rambling over and over again with scripted prayer. They also claim that you must confess your sins to man and he channels it to God. Well I don't need anyone to pray to God for me, Jesus taught us how to do it ourselves. So after 1800yrs we don't question it, we just accept that is how it is. This is a bad foundation. Jesus Christ is the corner stone to all foundations. He is the strong foundation that we all must use. If Jesus won't do it than Christians are not to do it, that is the foundation.

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I'm happy that you have studied that Bible and find your interpretation to be the Truth. However, I would trust the continuing teaching of the Church which has been around for about 1,972yrs over my or your interpretation. No offense, but you have already shown much ignorance in interpreting the Bible and in what the Church teaches, that sends up a red flag in my head and tells me that I cannot accept your interpretation of the Bible.

logicalthinker said:

Would Jesus bow to the cross?-no - Why would he?
Would Jesus wear a cross?-no - He already has!
Would Jesus bow and pray to the saints?-no - He does not need to, they're standing next to him in heaven.
Would Jesus call the pope Holy Father?-no. - lol, why would the Creator call his creation "father"?
Would Jesus pray to Mary his mother?-no. - No need to, she's with him in heaven.

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Plus if the catholic faith was the true faith, God would never let pedophiles teach his word. It is Satan's church that is why you find Satans kind in there teaching. False witnesses molesting children in the church.

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lol, I wondered when the pedophilia charge was coming.

Even one case of abuse by a priest is horrible because they are suppoused to be our pastors and our fathers in faith. However, less than 0.01% of priests in the US have been accused of abuse. You can't suggest that the sin of a few characterizes what all of them do (well, you could suggest it, but would not be very logical).

The catholic faith is the foundation to all modern churches. Not Jesus. The foundation that the catholic church created is weak and crumbles as we speak. But the foundation that Jesus started is still there. We need only look at his teachings, no one else. Look before the catholic church. None of those practices existed until them. Cross, saints, praying to mary, calling ministers and the pope father. None, The teaching of Jesus is the true foundation. Not the churches.

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You're right in as much as all 'modern' churches have splintered off the Catholic Church.

Interesting claim: "the foundation that the Catholic Church created is weak and crumbles as we speak". Never mind that it has been around for about 1,972 years thanks to Christ's promise to Peter in Matthew 16:18:

13(E)Now when Jesus came into the district of (F)Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that (G)the Son of Man is?"

14And they said, "Some say (H)John the Baptist; and others, (I)Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."

15He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

16Simon Peter answered, "You are (J)the Christ, (K)the Son of (L)the living God."

17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, (M)Simon Barjona, because (N)flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

18"I also say to you that you are (O)Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of (P)Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you (Q)the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and (R)whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

Cheers

Logicalthinker · Jun 9, 2005

butterflyinchrist said:
Yes the truth does hurt but just because something hurts or is a little controversial doesn't mean it's the truth! You are hurting people right now by calling things that people hold dear to them "vain silly trinkets". I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that actually worships the cross. At the end of the day you are making something out of nothing. I respect where you're coming from and I can kinda see your point but NO ONE IS WORSHIPPING THE CROSS! And furthermore no one wears it because it is how Jesus died. THey wear it because it keeps them humble. It reminds them everyday of the terrible price we were bought at and how we should be living our live ie. boundless love and sacrifice for others!

Why take the chance. You may be gambling with you salvation. Why even risk it.

Logicalthinker · Jun 9, 2005

butterflyinchrist said:
Ok I think you may have got me wrong. Ok wearing a cross is a little bit more than "remembering a loved one". It identifies me as part of the worldwide family of God. It reminds me (and I know I shouldn't need reminding but we all do sometimes) of what he did for me, for everyone around me and what I should have as the focus of my life.
No if a loved one was stabbed to death I wouldn't hang a knife on the wall to remember them but I would probably keep stuff around that reminded me of them because I know what it's like to loose someone and be scared that you might forget to remember them. That's kind of what I'm like with Jesus sometimes. I get scared that I might forget who I am to Him and do something stupid.
I definitely agree that we should wear our faith like armour and it doesn't consist of wearing a little trinket around your neck but it does entail showing the world who you believe in. There have been a few times when non-believers have come out and asked me why I wear a cross and it gives me an opportunity to share Jesus with them.
To be honest I think that some people probably would wear a little AK-47 around their neck if that was what killed him. But that argument doesn't hold water because that's not how he died!

Why didn't Jesus wear something to tell people who he was? He did not need to. He showed who he was through what he did. As christians we need to show who we are through our works. Not symbols of Idols. If that was the case God would have commanded it of us, not a maybe it would be ok. Plus why would you want to wear the symbol of another god. Tummaz of Babylonia. I mean thats your choice. But it saddens me that christians would rather remember how he died than what he taught.

Logicalthinker · Jun 9, 2005

Quijote said:
Lol, I guess St. Paul forgot about this when he wrote in Romans 9:10 (maybe he had not read Matthew when he wrote Romans? )

Yeh but Jesus himself is the one that said no one is father on earth. I follow him.

Quijote said:
10(A)And not only this, but there was (B)Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac

Did complete strangers call him father. no.

Quijote said:
Or the many times he refers to Timothy and Titus as his "son"? (1Cor4:17; 1Tim1:2; 2Tim1:2; Phil2:22; Titus1:4; Philem 10)?
Guess St. Paul was also "unclean"?

That is son not father. Big difference.

Quijote said:

Lastly, how about what St. Paul says in 1Cor 4:14-15?

14I do not write these things to (A)shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved (B)children.
15For if you were to have countless (C)tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in (D)Christ Jesus I (E)became your father through the (F)gospel.

There goes St. Paul...leading us into uncleanliness!

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Once again this is not Jesus saying these things. I don't know why he would contradict his Lord, But he is.

Quijote said:

Following what it is written in the Bible by St. Paul vs. following what your interpretation of the Bible says.......not a hard choice !

Click to expand...

I am not the only one that feels that way. Lots do. I am just the one on here talking about it.

Quijote said:

I'm happy that you have studied that Bible and find your interpretation to be the Truth. However, I would trust the continuing teaching of the Church which has been around for about 1,972yrs over my or your interpretation. No offense, but you have already shown much ignorance in interpreting the Bible and in what the Church teaches, that sends up a red flag in my head and tells me that I cannot accept your interpretation of the Bible.

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I'm not saying my interpretation is the best one but I bring up a valid point on the cross and man made saints. Just the act of bowing to them is wrong. Does not matter who your praying to when you do it. The fact still remains when it's time to pray to St. Peter down on your knees you go. Jesus would not bow and pray in front of a statue of Peter, neither will I. And for the church in Gods time it barly just started. Sure seems like a long time but really it is'nt. Not in the grand scale of things. You watch, the pediphiles were first, There will be other things to show us how unclean it is. Free yourself witch is unclean. doesn't matter if it was .000001%. Urine is still in the church. Plus the church doesn't get rid of what is unclean. They just keep moving them around and they just keep doing it. Then they try to keep it hush hush. Now that is how an organization of god should work. Whatever! That is a church of lies and deseption. The court records show how the church tried to hide the issue. Instead of casting out the fermented bread they just move it to ferment the rest. God says to throw away the fermented bread so the rest does not ferment.

Quijote said:

You're right in as much as all 'modern' churches have splintered off the Catholic Church. .

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This happened because the bible was made public and people could read it for themselves. They saw the truth and it was not in the catholic faith. There are more truths in there. Just got to read it for ourselves.

Quijote said:

Interesting claim: "the foundation that the Catholic Church created is weak and crumbles as we speak". Never mind that it has been around for about 1,972 years thanks to Christ's promise to Peter in Matthew 16:18:.

Click to expand...

He did not promise the catholic faith to Peter. He promised him church.Why didn't peter have a cross in his church? Was not until the creation of the catholic faith that brought Idols back. The original church got lost and overwhelmed.

Logicalthinker · Jun 9, 2005

Quijote said:
Would Jesus bow to the cross?-no - Why would he?- If he won't I won't
Would Jesus wear a cross?-no - He already has!- Forced to carry it.
Would Jesus bow and pray to the saints?-no - He does not need to, they're standing next to him in heaven.-But they bow to him in heaven
Would Jesus call the pope Holy Father?-no. - lol, why would the Creator call his creation "father"?- If he won't I won't
Would Jesus pray to Mary his mother?-no. - No need to, she's with him in heaven.- Once again does he pray and bow to her or does she bow to him

But your missing what I'm saying. If Jesus won't do it than christians should not do it right. Are we not to follow him. Mary is not to be prayed to, Jesus would not pray to his mom and no where in the bible does it say pray to my mom.

Logicalthinker · Jun 9, 2005

Quijote said:
repetition does not equal rambling

matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

matthew 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Repetition does equal rambling. Speak to god with your heart not a scripted prayer. Thats what heathens do.

Quijote · Jun 9, 2005

Logicalthinker said:
matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

matthew 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Repetition does equal rambling. Speak to god with your heart not a scripted prayer. Thats what heathens do.

Lol, repetition does not equal rambling.

As your quote above shows, it si VAIN repetition that we must avoid.

cheers

NothingButTheBlood · Jun 9, 2005

Logicalthinker said:
I have a logical way to look at items to see if they're Idols. You just ask yourself. Would Jesus do that? Pretty simple question that I try to apply to my life. I typed up my point of view on the cross. I don't want anyone angry I'm just trying to find a bottom to this issue. I believe in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and the sacrifice he made for the whole world. This is the way I view the cross.

Jesus was killed in the most horrific way imaginable and not only him but hundreds if not thousands of people before him. Probably some after him. The point I'm making is that Jesus never said he wanted a symbol (Idol) to honor him and if he did would he have picked the device that killed him. Let me put it in perspective. If the weapon of choice in Rome was an AK-47 and Jesus got mowed down in a hail of bullets. Would there be AK-47s on all church tops. Would people instead of having crosses depicting Jesus dying on it have a mosaic of him being shot down by Romans. Would there be tiny little gold AK-47s on chains around peoples necks. Than would you go to church and instead of making the sign of the cross on your chest, you act like your holding a machine gun and give a RAT-TAT-TAT before walking in.
Than you must ask yourself the question that all Christians should ask themselves. Would Jesus do that?
Would Jesus give thanks for food-Yes,
Would Jesus smack someone down-No,
Would Jesus help the needy-Yes,
Would Jesus bow down to a CROSS-No
No I don't think he would bow down to a torturous killing device that had just killed him. Would You?

We are intelligent people and I feel we have all been deceived by Satan to bow down to Idols. Just like the Israelites, when Moses left to make the Ten Commandments. You better believe that Satan was sitting right there and may have tricked them by wispering in their ears, "Make a calf to worship your god, thats what he would want." All Christians should ask themselves, Would Jesus do That? Would Jesus bow to the statue of St.Peter and Pray. Like I said when you say it that way you can't help but see the truth.

Please give me your thoughts on this. Sorry if it offended anyone. I'm a to the point kind of person.

I think the cross can become an idol but I really do feel it depends on how you look at it. If it's used as a symbol to show others where your faith lies and nothing more you are ok. If you start praying to the cross and not God or Christ if becomes an idol. I don't bow to the cross or pray to it but, I do wear crosses as an outward symbol that I'm a Christian.

Quijote · Jun 9, 2005

Logicalthinker said:
quijote said:

Lol, I guess St. Paul forgot about this when he wrote in Romans 9:10 (maybe he had not read Matthew when he wrote Romans? )

Click to expand...

Yeh but Jesus himself is the one that said no one is father on earth. I follow him.

But isn't the Bible the word of God? Aren't we called to follow all of what's in the Bible? Are you implying that there's a contradiction between what Jesus said and what St. Paul said?

logicalthinker said:
quijote said:

10(A)And not only this, but there was (B)Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac

Click to expand...

Did complete strangers call him father. no.

um....this is St. Paul (a complete stranger) calling Issac "father".

logicalthinker said:
quijote said:

Or the many times he refers to Timothy and Titus as his "son~~"? (1Cor4:17; 1Tim1:2; 2Tim1:2; Phil2:22; Titus1:4; Philem 10)?~~
~~Guess St. Paul was also "unclean"?~~

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~~That is son not father. Big difference.~~

Doesnot that imply that Titus and Timothy called st. Paul "father"? It is the logical P ) deduction, wouldn't you agree?

logicalthinker said:

quijote said:

Lastly, how about what St. Paul says in 1Cor 4:14-15?

14I do not write these things to (A)shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved (B)children.
15For if you were to have countless (C)tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in (D)Christ Jesus I (E)became your father through the (F)gospel.

There goes St. Paul...leading us into uncleanliness!

Click to expand...

Once again this is not Jesus saying these things. I don't know why he would contradict his Lord, But he is.

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Are you saying that St. Paul is contradicting Jesus? Are you saying that the Bible contradicts itself? Do you not believe/know that the Bible is inerrant?

logicalthinker said:

quijote said:

Following what it is written in the Bible by St. Paul vs. following what your interpretation of the Bible says.......not a hard choice !

Click to expand...

I am not the only one that feels that way. Lots do. I am just the one on here talking about it.

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Surely you would agree that the Truth does not depend on the number of people who believe it...if that were so...we Catholics would come out ahead anyway

logicalthinker said:

quijote said:

I'm happy that you have studied that Bible and find your interpretation to be the Truth. However, I would trust the continuing teaching of the Church which has been around for about 1,972yrs over my or your interpretation. No offense, but you have already shown much ignorance in interpreting the Bible and in what the Church teaches, that sends up a red flag in my head and tells me that I cannot accept your interpretation of the Bible.

Click to expand...

I'm not saying my interpretation is the best one but I bring up a valid point on the cross and man made saints. Just the act of bowing to them is wrong. Does not matter who your praying to when you do it. The fact still remains when it's time to pray to St. Peter down on your knees you go. Jesus would not bow and pray in front of a statue of Peter, neither will I. And for the church in Gods time it barly just started. Sure seems like a long time but really it is'nt. Not in the grand scale of things. You watch, the pediphiles were first, There will be other things to show us how unclean it is. Free yourself witch is unclean. doesn't matter if it was .000001%. Urine is still in the church. Plus the church doesn't get rid of what is unclean. They just keep moving them around and they just keep doing it. Then they try to keep it hush hush. Now that is how an organization of god should work. Whatever! That is a church of lies and deseption. The court records show how the church tried to hide the issue. Instead of casting out the fermented bread they just move it to ferment the rest. God says to throw away the fermented bread so the rest does not ferment.

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I have agreed with you that if someone bows down to a cross/crucifix w/out the intention of remembering Christ's sacrifice can be construed as idolatry. Up to there we are in agreement.

logicalthinker said:

quijote said:

You're right in as much as all 'modern' churches have splintered off the Catholic Church. .

Click to expand...

This happened because the bible was made public and people could read it for themselves. They saw the truth and it was not in the catholic faith. There are more truths in there. Just got to read it for ourselves.

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lol, as our discussion has demonstrated, the problem is not reading the Bible but interpreting it correclty.

logicalthinker said:

quijote said:

Interesting claim: "the foundation that the Catholic Church created is weak and crumbles as we speak". Never mind that it has been around for about 1,972 years thanks to Christ's promise to Peter in Matthew 16:18:.

Click to expand...

He did not promise the catholic faith to Peter. He promised him church.Why didn't peter have a cross in his church? Was not until the creation of the catholic faith that brought Idols back. The original church got lost and overwhelmed.

Click to expand...

How can you say that "the original church got lost and overwhelmed" when Jesus said: 18"I also say to you that you are (O)Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of (P)Hades will not overpower it. " (Matthew16:18)

Are you saying that Jesus lied when he said that his church would not be overpowered by the gates of Hades?

Cheers

Quijote · Jun 9, 2005

Logicalthinker said:
But your missing what I'm saying. If Jesus won't do it than christians should not do it right. Are we not to follow him. Mary is not to be prayed to, Jesus would not pray to his mom and no where in the bible does it say pray to my mom.

We are in agreement when you say that we are to follow Jesus. however, we are not God, he is, we are the ones who need to pray and ask others to pray for us, Jesus does not. We are the ones bound by the rules God made, he's not.

Logicalthinker · Jun 9, 2005

Quijote said:
Lol, repetition does not equal rambling.

As your quote above shows, it si VAIN repetition that we must avoid.

cheers

Thats the adjective used. I'm sorry it's in vain, but it is. Catholics have a scripted prayer for everything. Hears an example of one:

ACT OF CONSECRATION TO THE
IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY # 3

(For children)

Dear Mary,
my holy mother,
I love you so much and I give you my heart.
Help me to love God.
Help me to love my neighbor as a child of God.
Help me to love myself as a child of God.
Amen

ohh! ouch! That one is not even close to how Jesus taught us and it's to Mary Not God. Hmmm! Here's another:
PRAYER TO SAINT GABRIEL
FOR INTERCESSION

O Blessed Archangel Gabriel,
we beseech thee,
do thou intercede for us at the throne of Divine Mercy in our present necessities, that as thou didst announce to Mary the mystery of the Incarnation, so through thy prayers and patronage in heaven we may obtain the benefits of the same, and sing the praise of God forever in the land of the living.Amen.

ohh! ouch! Again doesn't follow how Jesus taught us to pray and this time you pray to Gabriel. Now your just going to have to show me where it's ok to pray to Angels and His mother mary in the bible. Here all just give you a link to 1,562 scripted prays that are in VAIN.
http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/

See repitition is rambling and in vain. I mean these prayers give no honor to the father, Just vain rambling and the way of the heathen. Not the church that Peter started.

butterflyinchrist · Jun 9, 2005

Logicalthinker said:
But it saddens me that christians would rather remember how he died than what he taught.

Well the point is, the way he died and the way he taught are kinda the same thing. He taught that to be leaders we must serve, to love everyone and sacrifice. He died because he loved the world. He became the ultimate Lord and king through sacrifice and service. He paid the ultimate price. The way I see it he died the way he lived.

I think the cross can become an idol but I really do feel it depends on how you look at it. If it's used as a symbol to show others where your faith lies and nothing more you are ok. If you start praying to the cross and not God or Christ if becomes an idol. I don't bow to the cross or pray to it but, I do wear crosses as an outward symbol that I'm a Christian.

My point exactly.

Why didn't Jesus wear something to tell people who he was? He did not need to.

Absolutely. But He is God. I am not.

He showed who he was through what he did. As christians we need to show who we are through our works.

I agree completely and I never intended to say that wearing a cross is the only way that other people know I'm a christian. I just like to wear something physical that shows who I am.

This all boils down to the fact that the cross would only be an idol if people worshipped. I've never met anyone who does and I don't think anyone here has either.

Quijote · Jun 9, 2005

Logicalthinker said:
Thats the adjective used. I'm sorry it's in vain, but it is.

It is vain if there is no meditation and it's just said for the sake of saying it, that much I agree w/you.

logicalthinker said:
Catholics have a scripted prayer for everything.

It happens when you've been around for 1,972 years

quijote said:
Hears an example of one:

ACT OF CONSECRATION TO THE
IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY # 3

(For children)

Dear Mary,
my holy mother,
I love you so much and I give you my heart.
Help me to love God.
Help me to love my neighbor as a child of God.
Help me to love myself as a child of God.
Amen

ohh! ouch! That one is not even close to how Jesus taught us and it's to Mary Not God.

Thank you for the prayer. I'd never heard/read that one before. I'll keep it handy so that my kids learn it

Anyway, you did notice the last three lines of the prayer, right?

logicalthinker said:
Hmmm! Here's another:
PRAYER TO SAINT GABRIEL
FOR INTERCESSION

O Blessed Archangel Gabriel,
we beseech thee,
do thou intercede for us at the throne of Divine Mercy in our present necessities, that as thou didst announce to Mary the mystery of the Incarnation, so through thy prayers and patronage in heaven we may obtain the benefits of the same, and sing the praise of God forever in the land of the living.Amen.

ohh! ouch! Again doesn't follow how Jesus taught us to pray and this time you pray to Gabriel.

Another beautiful prayer!!

Now your just going to have to show me where it's ok to pray to Angels and His mother mary in the bible.

Sure, Revelation 5:8:

8When He had taken the book, the (A)four living creatures and the (B)twenty-four elders (C)fell down before the (D)Lamb, each one holding a (E)harp and (F)golden bowls full of incense, which are the (G)prayers of the saints.

As you can see, the Saints take up our prayers to God.

logicalthinker said:
Here all just give you a link to 1,562 scripted prays that are in VAIN.

I would appreciate the link. So far it has very good prayers

logicalthinker said:
See repitition is rambling and in vain. I mean these prayers give no honor to the father, Just vain rambling and the way of the heathen. Not the church that Peter started.

lol, again, not all repetition is vain. Look at Rev 4:8:

8And the (A)four living creatures, each one of them having (B)six wings, are (C)full of eyes around and within; and (D)day and night they do not cease to say, "(E)HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE (F)LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, (G)WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME."

or Psalm 136:

1(A)Give thanks to the LORD, for (B)He is good,
For (C)His lovingkindness is everlasting.
2Give thanks to the (D)God of gods,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
3Give thanks to the (E)Lord of lords,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
4To Him who (F)alone does great wonders,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting;
5To Him who (G)made the heavens (H)with skill,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting;
6To Him who (I)spread out the earth above the waters,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting;
all the way down to verse 26 the phrase "For his lovingkindness is everlasting" is repeated.

or Matthew 26:44:

44And He left them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more.

Here Jesus himsef prays the same thing a third time!!!

Don't the angels in heaven, the author of Psalm 136, nor Jesus Christ know that "See repitition is rambling and in vain. I mean these prayers give no honor to the father, Just vain rambling and the way of the heathen. Not the church that Peter started"?

cheers

Logicalthinker · Jun 9, 2005

Quijote said:
But isn't the Bible the word of God? Aren't we called to follow all of what's in the Bible? Are you implying that there's a contradiction between what Jesus said and what St. Paul said?

um....this is St. Paul (a complete stranger) calling Issac "father".

Doesnot that imply that Titus and Timothy called st. Paul "father"? It is the logical deduction, wouldn't you agree?

Are you saying that St. Paul is contradicting Jesus? Are you saying that the Bible contradicts itself? Do you not believe/know that the Bible is inerrant?

Surely you would agree that the Truth does not depend on the number of people who believe it...if that were so...we Catholics would come out ahead anyway

I have agreed with you that if someone bows down to a cross/crucifix w/out the intention of remembering Christ's sacrifice can be construed as idolatry. Up to there we are in agreement.

lol, as our discussion has demonstrated, the problem is not reading the Bible but interpreting it correclty.

How can you say that "the original church got lost and overwhelmed" when Jesus said: 18"I also say to you that you are (O)Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of (P)Hades will not overpower it. " (Matthew16:18)

Are you saying that Jesus lied when he said that his church would not be overpowered by the gates of Hades?

Cheers

No the catholic church is not the church he speaks of. He's speaking to Peter and Peter created the church with no Idols or scripted prayer and no praying to Mary or man made saints. The foundation of that church is still there. It's Jesus. Not the catholic faith. That is totally different than what Peter started. You keep claiming that the catholic church is the church that Peter created but it's not. Peter would never allow those things.
so what do you call it when something in the bible contradicts something else. A contradiction. There is proof the bible was messed with when Guttenberg try to print it. The catholic church kicked him out of the process and took over and edited the bible. I'm in the printing industy and took printing theory. It's all there.

Logicalthinker · Jun 9, 2005

Quijote said:
It is vain if there is no meditation and it's just said for the sake of saying it, that much I agree w/you.

It happens when you've been around for 1,972 years

Thank you for the prayer. I'd never heard/read that one before. I'll keep it handy so that my kids learn it

Anyway, you did notice the last three lines of the prayer, right?

Another beautiful prayer!!

Sure, Revelation 5:8:

8When He had taken the book, the (A)four living creatures and the (B)twenty-four elders (C)fell down before the (D)Lamb, each one holding a (E)harp and (F)golden bowls full of incense, which are the (G)prayers of the saints.

As you can see, the Saints take up our prayers to God.

I would appreciate the link. So far it has very good prayers

lol, again, not all repetition is vain. Look at Rev 4:8:

8And the (A)four living creatures, each one of them having (B)six wings, are (C)full of eyes around and within; and (D)day and night they do not cease to say, "(E)HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE (F)LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, (G)WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME."

or Psalm 136:

1(A)Give thanks to the LORD, for (B)He is good,
For (C)His lovingkindness is everlasting.
2Give thanks to the (D)God of gods,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
3Give thanks to the (E)Lord of lords,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
4To Him who (F)alone does great wonders,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting;
5To Him who (G)made the heavens (H)with skill,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting;
6To Him who (I)spread out the earth above the waters,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting;
all the way down to verse 26 the phrase "For his lovingkindness is everlasting" is repeated.

or Matthew 26:44:

44And He left them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more.

Here Jesus himsef prays the same thing a third time!!!

Don't the angels in heaven, the author of Psalm 136, nor Jesus Christ know that "See repitition is rambling and in vain. I mean these prayers give no honor to the father, Just vain rambling and the way of the heathen. Not the church that Peter started"?

cheers

That,s praise to God. Thats different than wipping out your little prayer book and reading a prayer. while making the symbol of the cross on your chest and bowing in front of a statue of a very white blue eyed Jesus. That is the catholic way and that is repition. Jesus did go and pray three times but he had good reason too and the subject was the same but I doubt he said it word for word everytime.

Logicalthinker · Jun 9, 2005

Quijote said:
Sure, Revelation 5:8:

8When He had taken the book, the (A)four living creatures and the (B)twenty-four elders (C)fell down before the (D)Lamb, each one holding a (E)harp and (F)golden bowls full of incense, which are the (G)prayers of the saints.

Those are the prayers from the saints not prayers to the saints. And notice they all fell down before the lamb. not the lamb falling down to them.
So Why do you pray to saints?
So do you pray to mother Teresa? I mean she's a saint now. Although we all saw that she was nothing more than a compasionate human. When will you start praying to John Paul II. When will you start praying to that MAN?

Click to expand...

Quijote · Jun 9, 2005

Logicalthinker said:
No the catholic church is not the church he speaks of. He's speaking to Peter and Peter created the church with no Idols or scripted prayer and no praying to Mary or man made saints. The foundation of that church is still there. It's Jesus. Not the catholic faith. That is totally different than what Peter started. You keep claiming that the catholic church is the church that Peter created but it's not. Peter would never allow those things.

If what you say is true. What happened to the Church that Christ started with Peter and that had the promise that: and the gates of (P)Hades will not overpower it.? Are you suggesting that Christ did not keep his promise?

so what do you call it when something in the bible contradicts something else. A contradiction. There is proof the bible was messed with when Guttenberg try to print it. The catholic church kicked him out of the process and took over and edited the bible. I'm in the printing industy and took printing theory. It's all there.

lol, so if the Bible does not agree with your beliefs it's because the Catholic church took over the "editing" from Gutenberg?

I wonder where Gutenber got a hold of a copy of the Bible to set his printing press on? I wonder where he got a copy of the Bible in German? I wonder how the Bible survived from the time of St. John's dead to Gutenberg's creating the movable printing press?

The Catholic Church preserved it.

Is the Cross an Idol???

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