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Is temptation, in and of itself, sin?

Petros2015

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I'll just add this here, because I think it sums up my feelings on the matter:

"It's a fatal mistake to confuse
A moment of weakness
With strength
In the wrong direction"
 
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GDL

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To be clear, I've agreed with you in one thing, not in everything.

In no sense or at any time did I argue for evil = moral evil. That was your insertion and misunderstanding.

If you don't dig into Hebrew or Greek, that's your choice, but this would be an area of disagreement between us. There only being a need for context I'm also in disagreement with. Word meanings are vital to the process. Evil, in Is45:7, for the most part, is pretty simple context-wise, but it's one verse. I can see how you'd like to bypass such tools. If there were a "disagree" button we could hit it and just move on.

I'd prefer to be done with this part of the discussion. I've had them too many times and they're not productive when we get into views about languages.

As I pointed out earlier, I appreciated your comment on Jesus' humanity. I've been on that track for quite some time. It has far-reaching implications for what's expected of us IMO.
 
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GDL

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For my benefit, there's no need to keep pointing to Calvin. Just so you know, it's not my orientation, nor has it been in the past.

Thanks, but what you've said is of little help in the overall discussion of sovereignty. Honestly, your orientation to the 2 words you've chosen to discuss with me is a bit surface IMO and not useful to me in any way so far.

This is not meant to be overly argumentative, just truthful, to save us some energy. FWIW, word studies in the Text is one of the things I've found to be most valuable to my understanding. Due to a church split I was close enough to, I used a few years to study (and teach) the forms of the word "save" throughout the entire Text and I came away with an understanding of salvation that obliterated what I'd been taught. Same for the word "faith" and a few others.

You mentioned the importance of context. Very basic stuff. One would think word definitions would be basic stuff - and it conceptually is - but few take the time to see how God uses words, no matter how many times its used in the Text, and to go through the effort it takes to harmonize all the seeming contradictions.

Please save yourself some effort. Your views about the importance of in-depth studies on such things, including what you've said about the [little] value of languages and translation tools, evidences us to be in opposing viewpoints. So, we've both had our say on this matter.

How about the humanity of Jesus Christ. Why do you think it's so important for us to focus on this?
 
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Clare73

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Predominate [quantity] translation was my meaning, however,
I have 9 English translations on my screen + the Hebrew + the Greek, which is pretty normal at all times so I can glance through them all.
Sounds like Thomas Jefferson.
 
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GDL

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FWIW, I've not once said that I believe in God predestining some to either place. Also, FWIW, I've never seen "predestine" as being used in such a context. Hope this clears things up a bit.

I am asking where the dividing lines are drawn by God in such things as the potter and the clay analogies. I am also asking other questions about how He deals with His will vs. human will. I'm also asking how He works when He inserts Himself into human history coupled with the fact that He determines the times and locations of peoples' existences.

With that said, thank you for your point of view. What you or a child thinks is fair and not fair may or may not align with God's thinking. So, when your heart is fully written with God's Law, and your conscience is perfected under the High Priesthood of Jesus Christ, and you fully comprehend how God works in all respects, please do come back and inform me on everything. Until then, we're all just learning and asking questions, no?

There is a context to what Jesus said about children, and there is a context to what Paul said about leaving childhood behind and thinking like a man/grownup, and there is a context and meaning to the rebuke of remaining in infancy in learnedness, and there is meaning in the commands to grow up with a transformed and renewed mind.
 
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GDL

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Sounds like Thomas Jefferson.

True? Sounds like a bright man.

Just helps me see where translations are all over the place and assess why. Also allows me to quickly look into manuscripts. Glad I have a computer and great software and not Thomas's paperworks.
 
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Cormack

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In no sense or at any time did I argue for evil = moral evil. That was your insertion and misunderstanding.

It’s hard to see your message as saying anything different when you write concerning that quote from Isaiah...

This doesn't say He allows evil. Ultimately He is perfectly righteous and just. But this doesn't mean we have a handle on precisely how He thinks and functions.
Although if you don’t want anything to do with that earlier statement, that’s okay too.

For my benefit, there's no need to keep pointing to Calvin.

You mean Calvinism, although it’s not that I’m trying to box you in with the Calvinists, rather it’s that you have misused a lot of the words and verses that they misuse.

Thanks, but what you've said is of little help in the overall discussion of sovereignty.

Knowing what the word sovereign means is very important to discussing sovereignty imo.

Honestly, your orientation to the 2 words you've chosen to discuss with me is a bit surface IMO and not useful to me in any way so far.

If holding onto a misuse of words is useful to you, I can see why my input wouldn’t be helpful.

I'd prefer to be done with this part of the discussion.

I would be too if I were having to backpedal on words and verses and concepts I’ve misused.

If you aren’t interested in owning any of those mistakes that’s okay, best of luck with those very sophisticated tools, resources and materials.
 
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Hmm

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I've not once said that I believe in God predestining some to either place. Also, FWIW, I've never seen "predestine" as being used in such a context. Hope this clears things up a bit

You may not have used the word "predestination" but that's the only conclusion I can draw when you divide people up into being made of different types of clay: some from the "clay for destruction" and others from the "clay for honour". If there is another inference, do let me know.

So, when your heart is fully written with God's Law, and your conscience is perfected under the High Priesthood of Jesus Christ, and you fully comprehend how God works in all respects, please do come back and inform me on everything.

Your sarcasm is not warranted because I specifically said this in one of my replies to you:

I agree that we can't understand everything about God or what He does.
 
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Clare73

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True? Sounds like a bright man.

Just helps me see where translations are all over the place and assess why. Also allows me to quickly look into manuscripts. Glad I have a computer and great software and not Thomas's paperworks.
He had this neat little turntable on which you could prop up about four open books and turn to review them without having to handle the books.
 
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GDL

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This doesn't say He allows evil. Ultimately He is perfectly righteous and just. But this doesn't mean we have a handle on precisely how He thinks and functions.

Apparently the tie between the first 2 sentences is beyond your skills. And the 3rd sentence you're selectively ignoring, but it's the one that ties back into the context of the overall discussion, which you're also ignoring, by selectively quoting.

This from the one who speaks of context and the non-importance of language resources. Typical for an eisegete and one who uses verses/sentences selectively to build arguments for arguments sake.

Sorry I spooked you with the lexical insertion and references to some languages realities. I know it can be a bit overwhelming, but I thought you might be up to it. When you get beyond the basics...
 
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GDL

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I guess your math skills have caused you to draw some wrong conclusions. I thought the sarcasm would fire you up and make you think a bit deeper.

but that's the only conclusion I can draw when you divide people up into being made of different types of clay: some from the "clay for destruction" and others from the "clay for honour". If there is another inference, do let me know

I'm not the one dividing. I'm referencing Paul and I clarified for you already that it's what's being done with the clay by the potter. You should probably just do some work in the Text and read that I'm taking references from it and asking questions about the depths of it. To be helpful: Romans 9; Isaiah 29; Isaiah 64; Jeremiah 18; Lamentations 2. Romans 9 would be the focus where you'll find the language and concept you find disconcerting.
 
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Hmm

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I'd rather leave it there. This has been an informative thread and I wouldn't want to see it closed.
 
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GDL

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He had this neat little turntable on which you could prop up about four open books and turn to review them without having to handle the books.

Fascinating. People who value writings and use tools to enhance study are something, huh Clare?
 
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GDL

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I'd rather leave it there. This has been an informative thread and I wouldn't want to see it closed.

I'd still suggest you read Romans 9. Never hurts to read God's Word and let Him challenge our thinking.
 
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Clare73

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What does God see in a person that provides for His determination that some will be clay for destruction and some clay for honor? What is the dividing line where He determines He will be party to the hardening of a heart?
That decision was made before it came off the potter's wheel, "the right to make for ignoble purposes" (Romans 9:21).
Keeping in mind that God's foreknowledge refers to his own actions, not to the actions of men.
Acts 15:18 - "Known to the LORD for ages is his work."

Isaiah 48:3 - "I foretold (decreed) the former things long ago, my mouth announced them and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, (as decreed)
and they came to pass." (happened as decreed)
God knows in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen.
Being at the end of His strings with free will may not make logical sense, but, until someone resolves sovereignty and free-will, I'm open to the concept being logical in a way we just can't explain yet.
Free will, in the philosophical sense--power to make all moral choices, including sinlessness--is denied in Scripture (John 8:34). Slaves are not free.
Free agency, in the philosophical sense, is what is presented in Scripture as "free will"--ability to choose according to one' preferences and desires without external constraint.

God in his sovereignty accomplishes his purposes by working in the dispositions of men, disposing them to is will, without external constraint or force and, therefore, does not violate their free will to act according to their preferences or desires.

There is no conflict between the sovereignty of God and the Biblical free will of man.
 
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Hmm

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I'd be interested in hearing how you came to believe that we don't have free will. Presumably as a child you had a sense that you were free to make some choices - not complete freedom of course, you weren't free to fly for example - but no doubt you felt you had the freedom to run or to walk, to choose this chocolate or that one from a proffered box of chocolates etc. So how did you come to lose this sense?
 
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Clare73

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I agree that we can't understand everything about God or what He does.
We can understand what he reveals.
Neither your conscience, nor anything else on the face of the earth, gives you a handle nor anything else to overturn what God's has revealed in Romans 9:18-23.
 
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Hmm

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We can understand what he reveals.
Neither your conscience, nor anything else on the face of the earth, gives you a handle nor anything else to overturn what God's has revealed in Romans 9:18-23.

Only one type of clay is discussed there which is what I was saying...
 
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Clare73

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I would submit that the absolute sovereignty of God is precisely what Scripture presents in
Daniel 4:35; Acts 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; Luke 22:22; Romans 9:29-30, Romans 9:14-29, Romans 11:25-34; Ephesians 1:4-12; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Peter 1:2.
 
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Clare73

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Regarding the topic under discussion, from Romans 9:21.
 
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