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Is Supersessionism really a controversial position?

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jerry kelso

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soyeong,

1. The Mosaic law was till the seed should come which was Christ Galatians 3:19

2: The 613 laws and more were mandatory with specific blessings and cursing system and are listed in the Torah.
The Mosaic law was one whole unit unit not a part.
James says if you offend in one you offend in all.
What this means is that rule of life included everything that was holy and good but had weaknesses because the supreme sacrifice had not come to bring the best and ultimate change.
Only Jesus could fulfill the law under Moses and he did.
Fulfill means to accomplish, satisfy, expire.
Time expired at the Cross. Christ death satisfied the penalty for sin and law in the context of Moses was abolished for there was a new lawgiver and a new mediator between God and man.

3. The context of sacrificial offerings for sin by blood of bulls and goats were done away with Hebrews 9-10. Jesus was the sacrificial replacement for blood of bulls and goats.
The levitical priesthood was changed and replaced by the Melchizedek priesthood Hebrews 7 by way of Christ at Calvary. The levitical system was a part of the law of Moses.

3. The civil system enforced by the Sanhedrin with its specific judgements was replaced by Christ and now the civil law is for the disobedient according to 1 Timothy 1:9. Sinners have to be subdued by the civil law as a whole not the saved.
The 10 commandments of the Mosaic law was Holy and Good but it could only say thou shalt not and had no power to save or help one to perform the commandment. Jesus came to set us free from the struggle of being subdued by the civil law with the specific blessing and cursing system. God chaste says his children today not literally stones us.

4. The moral law within itself cannot be destroyed because it is God's standard of his character and Holiness.
When Christ died, it could not be that the moral law within itself was abolished, otherwise it would be God's character and Holiness would be abolished. That would be absurd.
What had to be abolished was the moral law with the specific blessing and cursing system.
Every age had moral laws but under different contexts.
In the antediluvian period the moral law was enacted according to one's conscious.
Under Moses law the moral law was mandatory by adhering to the written law.
Today we still have a conscience and we can understand the written law but now we have the power of the Cross.
The conscience could be seared and was not always as obvious as the written law.
The written law was clear but had a specific blessing and cursing system.
I have already explained Roman's 7 about the law of Moses being taken advantage of by the law of sin and death and made them live to the frailty of man in sin.
The example of parenting is illustrated of starting out with the law of do's and dont's because the child's brain is not mature enough to comprehend much of anything beyond that.
As their understanding and comprehending grows of why we do and don't and made into a moral agent ready to give themselves to the Lord through salvation.
When they are teenagers they are to be supervised by parents to get ready for adulthood. This is when they are to learn to obey out of love and respect not because they are subdued or the feeling of being subdued by trying to perform the commandment which is enacted by self effort.
This is the whole essence of Roman's 7 and why they lived more to sin than overcoming. This spirit of the law is why much of the church is defeated in their daily lives and not the best example to the world for the better promises of Holiness doing commandments because of who we are in Christ and his power through the Cross. Instead, the church shows more of self effort and defeat through legalistic perceptions and actions.

5. The spiritual aspect of the law of Moses is why the Old and New Covenant are close in relation.
The mechanics of the covenant of procedure and adhering to and weaknesses by the law of sin and earth that had to be replaced by the better promises of the New Covenant.

6. If the law of Moses was just mere adherence to moral law then the continuation belief of Judaism and Messianic Judaism could be almost the same as the abolition belief of the Old Covenant. It is the mechanics of the covenant that have to be dealt with and that makes it at opposite polars.

7. The New Covenant could not come in till the Old Covenant was out of the way. Hebrews 9:16-17 proves this.
The testator had to die in order for the Testament to be in force.
Jesus teaching was the Mosaic law in it's perfect sense not the New Covenant which is the death, burial and resurrection Matthew 26:28; I Corinthians 15:1-4.
The earthly calling of Israel was what Jesus preached in the KoH and the KoG program in it whole context not to the church.
The KoH reign could not happen as long as the Old Covenant was in force.
Israel as a nation is backslidden right now and out of covenant with God.
When they Repent in the time of Jacob's trouble it will be under the New Covenant of the blood of the lamb not the Old Covenant of the blood of bulls and goats and doing the commandments under the Old ethic. Jerry kelso
 
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Soyeong

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jerry kelso said:
soyeong,

1. The Mosaic law was till the seed should come which was Christ Galatians 3:19
Click to expand...

I explained that the Mosaic Law was needed during a period of time when God was working through a mediator rather than when we would hear His voice directly and obey. The method of God teaching us has changed, but not the content, because God's holiness, righteous, and goodness did not change with the coming of Christ, so neither did the way to act accordingly.


The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon: Pleroo
  1. to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
    1. to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
      1. I abound, I am liberally supplied
  2. to render full, i.e. to complete
    1. to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
    2. to consummate: a number
      1. to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
      2. to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
    3. to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
      1. of matters of duty: to perform, execute
      2. of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
      3. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

While it is true to that the Greek word "pleroo" has within its range of meanings to accomplish, satisfy, or expire, that word can also mean to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be. However, there are many problems with the definition that you are using and many good reasons to accept the one I am using, starting with the fact that causing God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should is precisely what Jesus proceeded to do throughout the rest of Matthew 5. Furthermore, in Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law in contrast with abolishing, yet you have interpreted that to mean that he came to abolish it. He then said that not the least part would disappear from the until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplished, which has not happened yet. On top of that, in Matthew 5:19, he gave a warning to people like you who would relax the least part of the Law or teach others to do the same.

As I pointed out, nobody thinks that "fulfill" means to accomplish, satisfy, or expire in Romans 15:18-19 when it says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, but rather it means that he fully taught obedience to it in word and in deed as it should be obeyed. However, the need to repent from our sins is a central part of the Gospel message, and the Law was given to reveal what sin is, so if the Law has expired, then so has the Gospel, and so did God's holy, righteous, and good standard. Jesus summarized the Law as being about how to love God and how to Love our neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), so saying that Jesus met the requirement of the Law so that we don't have to meet it is like saying that he loved God and our neighbor so that we don't have to, rather he did that in part so that we would have an example to follow, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22).

Fulfilling the Law was a rabbinic term found in Jewish literature that referred to people filling the Law up with meaning or demonstrating a full or correct understanding of the Law by word or by example, while abolishing the Law referred to people subtracting meaning from the Law or interpreting it in a way that undermined it. For instance, every Sabbath a rabbi in a synagogue would take a Torah scroll to Moses' seat and fulfill the Law by interpreting it and teaching how to correctly understand and obey it. According to Galatians 5:14, love fulfills the entire Law because that shows a full understanding of what the Law is essentially about how to do, so everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire Law, which means that it was not something unique that Jesus did to destroy it.


In order for the offering of Jesus to make the other offerings obsolete, then it would have to be true that at one point in the the blood of bulls and goats took away sin, but we are told that the blood of bulls and goats never took away sin. Furthermore, many of the other types of offerings have nothing to do with sin. In Acts 18:18, Paul took a Nazarite vow (Numbers 6) which required making offerings, including sin offerings, and in Acts 21:20-24, Paul was on his way to pay for the offerings of others who had taken a Nazarite vow in order to disprove the false rumor that he was teaching against the Law and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. So the offerings did not stop with the death or resurrection of Messiah, but only stopped because the temple was destroyed, and Ezekiel 44-46 prophecies a time when a third temple will be built and offerings will resume.


1 Timothy 1:9-10 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

Nowhere do these verses specify that they are talking about civil laws, but rather they include everything that is contrary to sound doctrine. But what does the Bible define as good doctrine?

Proverbs 4:2 For I give you good doctrine; do not forsake my law.

So you are not teaching good doctrine when you teach people to forsake God's Law. The Law was never give for the purpose of providing the means of salvation through our own effort and trying to do so has always been a legalistic perversion of the Law. Rather, the we should obey that law because we have been saved from the penalty of our sin in transgression of the Law and because we are being saved from continuing to sin by being trained by grace to stop transgressing the Law (Titus 2:11-14). Note that in verse 14 it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the Law, but to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to gather for himself a people who are zealous for doing good works, and God's Law is what instructs us how to do good works (Acts 21:20-24).


The Bible does differentiate between moral and non-moral laws, but rather all of God's laws are all inherently moral laws and God has given no laws that is not a moral laws, so if the moral law can't be destroyed, then neither can the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law reveals how to act according to God's holy, righteous, and good character (Romans 7:12), so just as it is absurd to say that that God's character is abolished it is absurd to say that the Mosaic Law has been abolished. For example, the commands to eat kosher are instructions for how to act according to God's holiness, so it is inconsistent to say that God's holiness can't be abolished, but instructions for how to act according to His holiness can be abolished. However, there is a distinction between a set of commands for how to act according to God's character and a covenant agreement to live according to those instructions that offers blessings and curses. A covenant agreement can come and go, but the instructions for how to act according to God's character are independent of any covenant agreement.


The law of sin and death took advantage of the Law of Moses, so the problem is not the Law of Moses, but the law of sin and death. Jesus set free from the law of sin and death so that we would be free to obey the Law of Moses without being hindered by the law of sin and death. Mosaic Law has never been about self-effort and legalistic obedience, but about demonstrating our faith and love for God and thereby growing in a relationship with Him.


There have more ways to do what is righteous or sinful than what the Law specifically prescribes or prohibits, but as Paul said in Romans 7:14, the Law is spiritual, so it has always been intended to teach us deeper spiritual principles of which the the written laws are just examples. However, correctly understanding a spiritual principle should lead to do things are examples of that principle, so it should lead us to do more things than what the written Law requires, but still include what it requires. If someone were to think that they understand the spiritual principle of love, so they no longer need to follow God's written instructions for how He wants us to love, then they have not correctly understood that principle.


I agree that the Mosaic Covenant is obsolete, but I disagree that the Mosaic Law is obsolete because it still reveals how to do what is holy, righteous, and good, and how to avoid sin, which are are things that we are still told to do as part of the New Covenant and part of what our salvation entails being trained by grace to do (Titus 2:11-14).


I again agree that the Mosaic Covenant is not in force, but nevertheless obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to act as a citizen in God's Kingdom, the way to submit to God's authority, and the way for Him to reign in our lives.
 
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jerry kelso

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soyeong,

1. The Mosaic Covenant is the First Covenant and the Second Covenant is called the New Covenant Hebrews 8:7; 9:1-18; 10:1-9.
The First is called the Old Covenant and the second is called the New Covenant Matthew 26:28; 2 Corinthians 3; Hebrews 8:13.
The first was given by Moses, the second by Jesus Christ John 1:17; Galatians 3:19; Hebrews 9:15; Matthew 26:28.
One is the law of Moses and the other is law of Christ Acts 13:39; Galatians 6:2. Dake's God's Plan For Man pg. 579 11. Contrasts between the Old and the New Covenants.
Acts 13:39; And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the "LAW OF MOSES".
Galatians 6:2; Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the "LAW OF CHRIST".
You are scripturally wrong in separating the law of Moses from the Mosaic Covenant.
You also cannot make an argument that not being justified by the law is different than doing the 613 laws and more than 1000 more statutes and commandments. Why?
Because doing the commandments have to do with "Justification by Works".
So your whole argument falls because the Mosaic Covenant and the Mosaic Law are the same.

2. The Law of God and the Law of Moses were the same.
The Law of God and the Law of Moses Acts 13:39; Roman's 7:22-25; Hebrews 10:28.
So your accusation of teaching people not to do the law of God is ridiculous because the New Covenant is also the Law of God that have things that were contained in the Old Covenant such as the moral law which was before the Old Covenant existed.
Proselytizing was under the Old Covenant for the stranger at the gate but is not in the New Covenant and why Jews and Gentiles are both equal in the mystery of the church told by Paul.
So your whole argument of being under the Mosaic law falls according to the Old Covenant.
Performing the Mosaic Covenant Commandments of morals, culturally, can be performed but have to be under the guidelines and the mechanics of the New Covenant.
The 613 laws etc. is nowhere mentioned to be kept in the New Covenant. Jerry kelso
 
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Soyeong

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It not clear to me what point you are making here.


Jesus was sinless, which means that he taught obedience to the Law of Moses both by word by and by example, so what reason do you have to think that the Law of Christ is anything other than the way that he taught to obey the Law of Moses? Obedience has never been about what we need to do in order to become justified, but about what we are to do by faith because we have been justified by faith. God did not require the Israelites to obey His Law before He would saved them out of bondage in Egypt, but rather He saved them by faith first, then gave them instructions in His Law for how to live by faith. It by faith that we are justified and by the same faith that we are to live in obedience to God Law.

Galatians 6:2; Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the "LAW OF CHRIST".
Click to expand...

Do you think this verse is saying that we fulfill the Law of Christ by bearing one another's burdens and thereby cause it to expire? If not, then why do you interpret fulfilling the Law of God as causing it to expire?

You are scripturally wrong in separating the law of Moses from the Mosaic Covenant.
Click to expand...

Do you agree the Law of Moses instructs how to live according to God's righteousness and that there existed a way to live according to God's righteousness before the Law of Moses was given? Do you also agree that God's righteous does not change, so the way to live according to God's righteousness does not change? If so, then I do not see how you can deny that a set of instructions for how to live according to God's instructions is distinct from a covenant agreement to live according to those instructions.


"Justification by Works" has has always been a fundamental misunderstanding and perversion of the Law. God had many purpose for giving the law, but providing the means of justification through our effort has never been one them, and it does not follow that because we shouldn't obey the Law for the purpose for which it was never given that therefore we shouldn't obey it for the purposes for which it was given. Among other purposes, Jesus said that justice, mercy, and faith are the weightier matters of the Law (Matthew 23:23), so a purpose for obeying the Law is learn about how to have justice, mercy, and faith. God said that what He commanded was for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, Deuteronomy 10:13), so obeying the Law is about growing in faith in God about how to rightly live. Jesus summarized the Law as being instructions for to love God and our neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40) and said that if we love him, then we will obey his commands (John 14:15), so obedience to God is about growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love. Jesus denied knowing people who were workers of Lawlessness (Matthew 7:23), we are told that no one who keeps on practicing Lawlessness has neither seen nor known him (1 John 3:6), and we are told that a relationship with Jesus is the goal of the Law for righteousness for everyone who believes (Romans 10:4), so obedience to the Law is again about growing in a relationship with Jesus. Paul said that the Law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), so it is about being trained by grace how to act according to God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness (1 Peter 1:13-16, 1 John 3:4-10, Ephesians 2:10, Titus 2:11-14) and about reflecting those attributes to world (Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 49:6). Paul said that the Law was given to make us conscious of sin (Romans 3:20) and that he wouldn't even know what sin was if it weren't for the Law (Romans 7:7), so a purpose of the Law is to teach us how to avoid sin, which is also something that we are told to do in the NT (Romans 6:15). Jesus was sinless, which means that he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Law, so obeying the Law is about following his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), about follow his commands and walking in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6), about being his disciple (Matthew 28:16-20), about becoming obedient bondservants to the God that we serve (Romans 6:16, 1 Corinthians 7:22), about being set free from sin to become slaves of righteousness (Romans 6:17-18), and about no longer presenting our members as slaves of impurity and Lawlessness, but presenting our members as slaves of righteousness leading to sanctification (Romans 6:19). Obedience to the Law is about refraining from following Israel's example of disobedience (1 Corinthians 10:1-13), about working out our salvation (Philippians 2:12), about walking in freedom (Psalms 119:45, James 1:25), about delighting in God (Psalms 1:1-2, Romans 7:22), about being blessed (Deuteronomy 30:15-20, Psalms 119:1), about entering into life that is life (Matthew 19:17), about following the good way where we will find rest for our souls (Jeremiah 6:16-19, Matthew 11:28-30), about being redeemed from Lawlessness (Titus 2:14), about bringing reproof, correction, training in righteousness, and to equip us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17), and about what we are to do because we have been justified (Ephesians 2:8-10), but it has never been about what we need to do in order to become justified.


If you agree that the Law of God and the Law of Moses are the same and you agree that Jesus is God, then why do you think the Law of Christ is not also the same as the Law of Moses? I agree that you teach many of the laws of God, but you also teach against following some of the laws of God, and to the extent that you do that you are acting against God. Everything that was taught in the NT was in accordance with OT Law, so Jesus did not sin in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by removing OT laws or by adding his own laws.

The Mosaic Law was given to make us conscious of sin and sin is defined as lawlessness, so if someone in the NT wanted to communicate that we should obey the 613 Mosaic laws, then they could simply tell us to repent of our sins, or that we have been redeemed from lawlessness, or that we should have a holy conduct, or that we should practice righteousness, or that we are made new creations in Messiah to do good works, or that we should follow Messiah's example, or that we should follow his commands, or that we should walk in the same way he walked, or that we should come under his yoke, or that we should refrain from following Israel's example of disobedience, or that we should be obedient slaves of God, or that faith without works is dead, or that we have been grafted into Israel, or that OT Scriptures are profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
 
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jerry kelso

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soyeong,

1. Why is it so hard to understand that the first covenant was Moses law which was before the new covenant.
The better covenant was established upon better promises which was the New Covenant.
If the Old Covenant of Moses would have been faultless then there would be no reason to have a New Covenant. Hebrews 8:6-7.

2. Jesus taught, lived and fulfilled the Mosaic law during the age of the Old Covenant.
Do you really think Jesus taught the New Covenant of his death, burial and resurrection? Can you answer that? If you think he did then that is part of the problem. You can't mix law and grace without causing the struggle. This is why Israel was in bondage more than flourishing. They were oppressed by Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome in Jesus day.
Let me stop here and let you answer the question; do you think Jesus taught the New Covenant to the Jews in his KoH and KoG earthly ministry? Jerry kelso
 
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jerry kelso said:
soyeong,

1. Why is it so hard to understand that the first covenant was Moses law which was before the new covenant.
Click to expand...

Do you agree that if God's righteousness is eternal and unchanging, then the way to act according to God's righteousness is eternal and unchanging? If so, then God could make any number of covenants and the way to to practice righteousness would be the same in all of them. The Mosaic Covenant revealed which things have always been righteous and sinful through the Mosaic Law, so when we are told to practice righteousness and to refrain from practicing sin in the New Covenant (1 John 3:10), it should be no mystery where we should go to find out how to do that. In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Paul was referring to OT Scripture when he said that all Scripture was God-breathed and profitable for training in righteousness.

The better covenant was established upon better promises which was the New Covenant.
If the Old Covenant of Moses would have been faultless then there would be no reason to have a New Covenant. Hebrews 8:6-7.
Click to expand...

Indeed, Hebrews 8 says that the New Covenant is based upon better promises and has a superior mediator, but it doesn't say anything about having superior laws. While it is true that Hebrews 8 says that God found fault with the Old Covenant, it doesn't say that He found fault with His Law or with His righteous standard, but that he found fault with the hardness of His people's hearts for breaking His Covenant. So He made a New Covenant where he would take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to His Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), where he would put His Law in our minds and write it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33), and sent His Son to free us from sin so that we might obey His Law and meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4). In other words, God made a New Covenant so that this time around we would obey His Law, not so that we could disregard it.

You can't mix law and grace without causing the struggle.
Click to expand...

It is completely false that God's grace and God's Law are opposed to each other, as though a house divided against itself could stand. According to Romans 1:5, we have received grace to bring about the obedience that faith requires. According to John 1:16-17, grace was added upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the Law. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what God has revealed to be godly, righteous, and good and to renounce doing what He has revealed to be ungodly and sinful, which is essentially what the Law was given to instruct us how to do (Romans 7:7, Romans 7:12). According Jude 1:4, ungodly people pervert God's grace as a licence for immorality. According to Strong's, "grace" is defined as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life" and when God's will is reflected in our lives it takes the form of obedience to His commands. The blessing before Shema states: "With an abundant love have you loved us, God. For the sake of our ancestors whom You taught the laws for living, may You also be gracious to us and teach us, too". Grace is an attribute that God displayed in both the OT and NT (Exodus 34:6-7) and he is gracious to us by teaching how to rightly live in obedience to His Law through faith. According to Ephesians 2:8-10, we have been saved by grace through faith, not by doing the good works that God instructed, but for the purpose of doing them.

This is why Israel was in bondage more than flourishing. They were oppressed by Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome in Jesus day.
Click to expand...

In general, the good kings lived for much longer than the evil kings did, so if you add up the years, they were under a good king for roughly 80% of the time. Not perfect, but not under bondage more than flourishing either. However, the reason why they were in bondage was not because of their obedience to the Law, but because of their disobedience.

Let me stop here and let you answer the question; do you think Jesus taught the New Covenant to the Jews in his KoH and KoG earthly ministry? Jerry kelso
Click to expand...

His KoH and KoG ministry was relevant to both covenants. It is no less important to repent of our sins in the OC as it is in the NC. God's righteousness is eternal, so the way to do what is righteous and to avoid sin is eternal and does not change from covenant to covenant. In Psalms 119:160, it says that all of God's righteous laws are eternal. Do you believe that is true?
 
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Ok, what academic book exist from a pro-Supersessionism appoarch on the Bible?
 
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jerry kelso

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soyeong,

1. Jesus was sinless and had to be to be the perfect spotless lamb of sacrifice for sin.
He was an example to all Jews of what the law was all about.
He exposed the scribes and Pharisees who taught men's traditions Matthew 16:9 and their hypocrisy of performing the law with the wrong motive Matthew 6:2,5.

2. Justification by grace is not in question.

3. First of all, the Law of Christ is based in the New Covenant.
The New Covenant is forever!
All laws are of God in every age and some God kept and some he didn't.
The Gentiles did not have a count he made way for them to have one through proselytizing into Judaism because they were the stranger at the gate.
Just because there is no proselytizing and stranger at the gate in that context of the Old Covenant commandments doesn't mean it was't of God.

4. The commandments did instruct the Jews how to live for their theocracy and period of time till the seed should come and Calvary changed everything because it was built on better promises.

5. God's character and righteousness and Holiness of himself does not change.
The way God dealt with man and the way he implemented his righteousness changed.
For example, the righteousness of the Mosaic law was different than the righteousness by faith in the New Covenant.
The Old Covenant was about doing first to become they were.
The New Covenant is about who we are in Christ first and why we do afterwards.
Jesus teachings were do,do,do. That is what the Sermon on the Mount was all about.
Since the Cross, it is what he did, what he did, what he did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

6. Who said anything about Justification by Works being about self effort?
James talks about Justification by Faith which Abraham showed by offering Issac which was as a type of God giving the son as a sacrificial lamb. It was all about Faith without works is dead.
JBF is the fruit of salvation.
JBF and JBG are two different things.

7. Matthew 23:23; this was about the hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees who tithed but omitted the weighted matters of the law.

8. Matthew 22:36-40 is true. However, to truly fulfill those two laws they had to do all the commandments.
We are to love God and our neighbor automatically because of the finished work of Christ not because we are trying to work up to a code of ethics which could be iffy versus of who you are.
It doesn't mean that it wasn't supposed to be who they were but they had to do first to even learn or achieve who they were.
This is another weaknesses of the law. Because the law had no power to help them perform the commandments and because they didn't have the possibility of the power of the Spirit without measure and 24-7 then the law of sin would have more chance to cause self effort. That happened more times than not.

9. Roman's 10:4 the Jews did practice their own righteousness and didn't do the righteousness of the law v 5; the man that doeth them shall live in them.
Paul then turns around and explains the righteousness by faith which is for New Covenant believers. It was all about believing in the finished work of Christ which is being who we are in Christ and the power of the finished work.
Moses righteousness of the law was about doing and doing first.

10. Roman's 7:22; the law was Holy and Good and this is true.
Peter also said the law was a yoke upon their neck which would agree with Galatians 5:1 of not being entangled with the yoke of bondage again which was the law specific to circumcision. Verse 3: For I testify again to every man that is circumcised that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

11. Matthew 19:17; doing the commandments to enter life, not to mention they had to repent of their sins Matthew 4:17 and believe he would forgive them because Luke said he came to seek and save that which was lost.

12. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is true and all eternal truths are applicable today whether listed in the Old or New Covenants. It also means that all scripture must be understood in its proper perspective in each age and what it means to us today.
You are trying to mix the Covenant teachings of law and grace which causes the struggle and confusion and not separating the contexts for those ages.

13. I already gave you some differences in the Old and New Covenants but you either don't comprehend it or just skate from it saying there is a difference between Moses law and the Mosaic covenant or call it a continuation.
Moses gave the law and Christ was the giver of the New Covenant.
Circumcision was the sign of the Old covenant of law. Christ blood is the New Testament.

14. Jesus didn't violate the Torah because the gospels were still under the Old covenant.
The only part of the gospels that are New Testament were after Israel rejected Jesus Kingdom offer Matthew 23:37-39.

15. Paul said in Roman's 3:12 the law gave knowledge of sin and we are to have conscience of sin otherwise we will be sinning.

16. There is nowhere in the New Covenant commandments that says or implies we must do the 613 laws of Moses which were more than just moral laws.

17. Psalm 119:160: Thy word is true from the beginning: and everyone of thy righteous judgements endure the forever.
God's word is always true from the beginning. Beginning of what? The law of Moses wasn't known to the antediluvians.
It began with Moses.
Righteous judgements are what?
According to the context the righteous judgements are true and faithful for the vindication of God's faithful servant and meted out to the transgressors and persecutors who did not keep the word.
This is under Old Testament age of law and is an eternal truth and violates nothing that I know of in the New Covenant.
Verse 155; salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.
This passage has nothing to do with the the law being abolished.
The children of Israel didn't understand about the abolishment of the law of Moses.
2 Corinthians 3:13; Moses put a veil over his face so the children could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
Verse 14; But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same veil untalented away in the reading of the Old Testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
Verse 15; But even to this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
Verse 16; Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
The ministration of death was the Ten Commandments for they were on stone Verse 7.
As I said before, the whole law of Moses was the Old Covenant as one unit and it was abolished in that one whole context. Jerry kelso
 
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jerry kelso

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soyeong,

It is late but I will ask you Do you really know what the KoH and the KoG message of Jesus teachings to the Jews under the age of the Mosaic law was really about in its overall context?
Do you realize that the KoH and the KoG message was not a direct message to the church of today and what all that entails?
Can you tell me for a fact by scriptural context that Jesus taught his death, burial and resurrection for the Jews to be saved in his earthly ministry under the KoH and the KoG?
Good night and may God bless and I'll be back in the morning. Jerry kelso
 
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soyeong,

1. You have tunnel vision because you only understand your POV and do not comprehend the truth of the scripture concerning the abolishment of the law of Moses.
There are different covenants and they were all different and were applicable for that age and time in their particular context.Much of the perception you give in my opinion is that I don't believe in doing commandments, I am trying to do away with morals laws and not abstaining from sin, I am trying to do away with all of the Old Testament, especially the Torah, and the Jewish way of life and trying to Gentileize Jews. I don't really know till you comment.
The truth is that I am not trying to do any of those.
The Bible shows different covenants with different contexts because of gradual revelation and that is why he dealt with men in different ways.
Eternal truth of moral law are the same within themselves because sin is always sin and wrong is wrong.
Moral laws are in every age.
Moral law with only conscience, moral law with not only conscience but through written mandatory laws with specific blessing and cursing system with a righteousness to do to attain before being able to be who they were because it caused more self effort than overcoming. It doesn't mean that the Jews couldn't delight in the law. This doesn't mean that there was't great things that happened in the Old Testament that rival what many of us see today under the NC.
Jesus was under the age of law but said greater things would we do than he did.
It has to do with the context of weaknesses of the Mosaic law vs. the better promises of the NC and the whole NC context.
Moral law today does not have the cursing of specific judgements when trying to perform the law. Do you believe that stoning for adultery is happening today? The answer is no and you would agree because God offers forgiveness.
I have already discussed the difference between the righteousness of the law of Moses and the righteousness of faith in the new covenant.

2. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is talking about all scripture not just the Mosaic law. Everything in proper perspective.

3. Hebrews 8 found fault with the old covenant which is the law of Moses. I already gave scripture that proves they are the same thing and you have not and cannot rebut it except for trying to usurp it with your opinion.
The righteousness of faith is a higher standard than the Righteousness of the Mosaic law of which I have already given scripture for and proper context.

4. Taking away the hearts of stones is true but is the only reason according to Hebrews 8:6-7 so you are stating half of the truth and trying to make the whole.

5. The children of Israel were disobedient because of rejection of the truth but that was only part of it. Is ''twas also the weaknesses of the law that had to be made better.
The NC is built on better promises and is holy and good too but man has free will and can refuse to perform the commandment. It doesn't make us perfect but gives us greater access to God etc.
Your statement once again is one sided which is like saying the sin of unbelief is the only sin that damns a soul to hell. That is wrong because there are many sins that will send one to hell and that the sinner will be judged for those works of sin and will have different degrees of punishment for that reason.
The sin of unbelief is called the unpardonable sin Matthew 12 which doesn't fit the whole context. The sin of unbelief is the result of all sins that doom men to hell.

6. You are being too general about your statements of the KoH and the KoG.

7. Psalm 119:60; context is talking about the righteous judgements to vindicate the righteous who seek and keeps God's word against sinners who don't keep God's word.
This is an eternal truth and doesn't violate the NC.

8. It was God's law and righteousness for the Jew to be kind to the stranger at the gate and to proselyted gentiles into Judaism etc. but this is not the program for the church.

9. Now do you understand Jesus complete context of the KoH and the KoG message to the Jewish nation of the Mosaic law?
And do you understand how the Sermon on the Mount shows thessence of the Mosaic law and the KoH reign?
If you can understand this you will understand the proper historical context and why it was not a direct message to the NC church which didn't start until after Calvary. Jerry kelso
 
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