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Is some of the anti science movement to be blamed on scientists?

Delphiki

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This is why I call them on their fallacies.
Because you don't know what fallacies are.

I am sure you would all much rather get into a definition debate then actually face that no species has ever been observed to become a completely different species [by my definition].

I've said it at least 3 times in this thread already, that nobody has directly observed one species turn into another species first hand. If they did, then it would DISPROVE evolution. Speciation occurs over a time scale that exceeds the human life spans, as far as I know.

Of course, it is my definition that explains how a macro-micro-organism would become the dinosaurs and then man, lol.

1 - Your definition is incorrect.
2 - An organism is either micro OR macro -- not both at the same time.
3 - Man didn't evolve from dinosaurs, and the theory of Evolution does not indicate this.
 
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Naraoia

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Since I have so many fans I can not reply to just one post, so as you see your quote, smile.


No one did that I could see... You, on the other hand, responded by crying ad hominem at things that demonstrably weren't. The irony is kind of amusing.

Here is a question for you: is it possible to conclude that something happened from its consequences? Is it possible to do that with reasonable certainty?

(If that's too abstract: if you wake up in the morning and look out the window to see puddles everywhere, how well-supported is the HYPOTHESIS that it rained during the night?)

See, this is what I was talking about. Question away, just bear in mind that we've likely heard this stuff from creationists before, and it is no less wrong than it was previously - try not to get too petulant when we point that out.
ad hominem
That's by far the closest to an actual ad hominem in your list. Considering that its main point is that we have seen your arguments before, that's not saying much.

I googled the stuff that pwned your PRATTs into the ground, does that count?
ad hominem
An ad hominem fallacy is attacking the person instead of their arguments (especially if what you attack about the person has nothing to do with the subject of the debate).

Now, I don't know if you've seen the acronym PRATT before. It means "Point Refuted a Thousand Times".

Unless you are equal to the points you make, I'm afraid this is not an ad hominem...

Only decades after the horse has already left the stable. Btw, it's funny how you accept the science that shows some fossils to be fake but reject the exact same science that shows your personal interpretations of the bible to be wrong.
...did I accept a fossil? If I did, where is it? I need to put it in storage.
Read that quote again. It says that you accepted that some fossils are fake [based on the results of scientific investigation]. Not that you accepted a fossil.

5 Show me an example in the scientific literature of this hard anti-God push.
Show me a pink elephant in yellow underwear fluent in Spanish.
Ohhh, wait, ONLY Scientific Literature is Authoritative!
You said there is an anti-God push in science. I'm sorry, but the place to find out what is and isn't in science is the scientific literature.

Popular science is written either by non-scientists (in the case of news articles, these are often abysmally underinformed journalists) or by a small, biased subset of scientists who (like Dawkins) may have a personal agenda to push. In actual science... most people don't even talk about God.

lol argumentum ad verecundiam
I didn't ask you to accept something on anyone's authority. I merely suggested that if you want to demonstrate X "in science", you ought to show it in the stuff science outputs.

7 Would you mind providing a few specific examples?
Sure, have you ever observed 1 million years? Because if not, ANYTHING you would say on the subject would be a hypothesis.
See above. Puddles, rain, etc.

8 Dunno about the lemur, but archaeoraptor never made it into a peer-reviewed publication.
Just National Geographic.
National Geographic is not a scientific publication, it's a popular magazine. And the fact that you didn't know that suggests to me that your familiarity with science is close to nonexistent.

Why should I believe anything you say about science, when I am a trainee scientist?

9 Ranting doesn't really help your case, you know.
ad hominem
Pointing out that hurling unsupported insults at science is not a great argument is hardly an ad hominem. Let's see again what I responded to:
HAPministries said:
For those that claim that no outside forces corrected these things, there are ministers debunking this garbage every day. It is science that is stopping it's ears and closing it's eyes.
Note phrases like "debunking this garbage", science is "stopping its ears and closing its eyes" [corrected for grammar]. Then count up the actual facts offered in support.

Do you really think that that's an argument and not a rant?

10 Which is totally unbiased, right?
Like National Geographic?
Excuse me? You were arguing that Expelled reveals an obvious bias in science. I was questioning the neutrality of the movie. What does the neutrality of NG have to do with that?

11 What is an obvious bias? I haven't seen Expelled (and what I heard about it doesn't make me too keen to see it), so I would rather you elaborated.
Ever buy an issue of National Geographic?
Yes, I was a subscriber for several years. Beautiful photography, well worth buying just for that. What's your point? If it is that NG demonstrates the anti-God bias of science, then (1) show me where it does so, (2) or better, find another example, because NG is still not a scientific publication.

13 "I've just written two posts insulting your entire profession. By the way, have a nice day!"
Try getting a better job.
Thanks, but I quite like being a scientist.

Whether or not we do is kind of irrelevant, though. The fact remains that you pretended to be all nice and friendly after a post that was anything but, which is... I don't know. I'd say irritating, but I found it funny more than anything else.
 
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Delphiki

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Low post count, argumentative, belligerent, and insulting. I'm calling Poe on this one.

With the misunderstanding of what logical fallacies actually are, and the love of the word "equivocation", I'm guessing this user came from evolutionfairytale.com
 
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Naraoia

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Really, then can you show me just 1 time mankind has EVER observed one species evolve into a completely different species?

Just 1?

Throughout the history of mankind, has this ever been observed 1 time?
Depends what you mean by "completely different". It's pretty clear you don't mean speciation.

The thing is, evolution does not predict or require that species should become "completely different" within the scope of human observation. (Strictly speaking, it doesn't predict that species should ever become "completely different" from what they were)

Also, puddles, rain, inference.

Because if you want to have a respected hypothesis, you should at least observe it happen 1 time, right?
No. If you want to have a "respected" (by which, I assume, you mean "well-supported") hypothesis, you should provide one that (1) accounts for known observations, (2) could be, but is not, contradicted by empirical evidence. The more empirical evidence there is, and the more of it has been collected with the aim of testing your hypothesis, the more solid your support. Notice how nowhere in this explanation does "direct observation" make an appearance.

Oh no, they changed the prudery filter? I liked [wash my mouth] better

You admit, abiogenesis teaches that all life came from a rock?
Seeing as he did almost the exact opposite, I don't know where you get that from...

You remind me of Agonaces, in truth. Eerily.

I made a claim that Naturalism is biased. I have actually quoted a film and a magazine.
You didn't "quote" anything, you mentioned them. Which is useless. If I asserted that birds evolved from dinosaurs and when asked to provide evidence, I went "well duh, look at fossils", would you be satisfied?

Funny, I asked for 'thought' not brain. Do you know the difference between a thought and a brain? I guess not...
You asked for a naturalistic explanation of thought, if memory serves. The naturalistic explanation in a nutshell is that brains generate thoughts. Does that clarify what he said?
 
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matthewgar

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Low post count, argumentative, belligerent, and insulting. I'm calling Poe on this one.


I'm guessing this, either he's a POE or troll as he actually seems to know the information but arguing like a creationist anyway, of he's completly ignorant of the subject as all he's doing is posting false information, and exagerating claims.

Oh and falacies are not automiaticly bad, a apeal to authority isn't wrong, if the person actually knows the subject, an apeal to authority is wrong, when your say something like, "Well my minister showed me X is wrong." or argument from ammount only a falacy if you expect the person to disprove them all, it is a valid example for how the ammount of evidence in support. Right now I think were going over a falacy I see all the time, "Argument from definition." where instead of arguing wether or not speciation has occured, all you guys are doing is arguing the definition of speciation.
 
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Naraoia

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Sadly, it is often Creationists who have to teach evolution to those who claim to support it.
"Often"??? It seems we have vastly different experiences... few creationists I've encountered could teach anything (correct) about evolution to a rabbit, let alone the average pro-evolution poster on CF.

As I stated, and this group seems to want me to debate about, is that we do not empirically know, and evolution should be taught for what it is, a hypothesis, and not for what it is NOT, a Theory.
Theories are, in a way, hypotheses. The distinction between the two is much less sharp than you seem to think it is. "Theory" is generally applied to hypotheses that are larger in scope (explain a large number of facts), and/or relatively well supported by evidence.

Again, what you are asking for would be extremely unusual, if not impossible, in evolution. The amount of change you are demanding in a short time is quite unlikely to happen without a miraculous increase in mutation rates.

One for the road, though it is 8 or more generations, not 3:
File:Speciation experiment.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And for the birds and the fruit flies, just reverse the order. Ta Daaaaa
Except it doesn't work like that. As Cabal pointed out, reproductive isolation is a lot more difficult to remove than to evolve.
As for your diagram, it's kind of pointless, seeing as all of us agree that reproductive isolation can evolve quite quickly.

You, however, claim that it's just as easily reversible. That claim is still waiting for some evidence.
 
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AV1611VET

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lol

They are going to avoid any word that would be understandable, because they would then be held accountable to understanding the conversation, lol.

Have a Blessed Day!
My friend, you'll see that a lot here.

Nobody can talk themselves out of understanding like these guys can.

God bless!
 
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AV1611VET

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Looks like we have another time waster in the form of HAPMinistries. Move along people, nothing to see here ...
What's the matter, Targ? is life that boring outside the laboratory?

You guys can't handle people telling you you're wrong, can you?
 
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matthewgar

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What's the matter, Targ? is life that boring outside the laboratory?

You guys can't handle people telling you you're wrong, can you?

nahhhhh, but after awhile you start to realize your trying to educate a brick, and it's pointless, sides if he's a POE or simply a troll then it's pointless, just like arguing anything with you is. Because all were doing is arguing with someone that doesnt' even believe what they are saying.
 
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Targ

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What's the matter, Targ?

The matter is that there are far too many people trolling or arguing nonsense. I've seen you applaud people's post before in the same way you have applauded this guy's posts, only for it to later turn out that they were faking / trolling.

is life that boring outside the laboratory?

I don't work inside a laboratory and never have done so I wouldn't know.

You guys can't handle people telling you you're wrong, can you?

I can handle it if their claims are valid. Heck, that's the reason why I eventually gave up on creationism in favour of evolution, because people kept telling me I was wrong and eventually I realised that they were actually correct to say I was wrong. Much to my surprise, the evidence for evolution was simply overwhelming.

What I find irritating is when people put on ridiculous performances like HAPMinistries has put on for us all. HAPM starts off asking for evidence of creatures being observed to evolve from one creature into another creature. A list is provided. He then sobs that the list is too big and that he feels swamped. People then tell him to take his pick and just address one of them. He ignores this and carries on ranting that the list is too big, that everyone is using ad hominems and fallacies. It is reiterated that he can pick one from the list if he doesn't want to address all. Response: ignore this and carry on ranting about how everyone is allegedly using fallacies including trying to swamp him. You then come along and applaud him for what he has written?! LOL, that really says it all about you, AVET.
 
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AV1611VET

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You then come along and applaud him for what he has written?! LOL, that really says it all about you, AVET.
I applaud the content of the post, not necessarily the poster.

I don't agree with everything dad, or HAP, or Lucaspa says; but I'll usually find something in their post to agree with, and agree with it.

I usually do this to give them some moral support.

I certainly applaud them for being up here on the front lines and willing to take you guys on.
 
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