Is Sola Scriptura Guilty of Logical Inconsistency?

QvQ · Aug 20, 2019

I have met too many people who "feel" they are right. I know too many people who feel they were taught the "right.' Now you say "Reason" but reason is a tool of the wicked as well as the righteous. I may have a good reason for doing all manner of bad things. I don't trust feelings and I trust reason only when it informs Faith. I do not rely on the fallible foibles of my fellow man.

JAL · Aug 20, 2019

QvQ said:
I have met too many people who "feel" they are right. I know too many people who feel they were taught the "right.' Now you say "Reason" but reason is a tool of the wicked as well as the righteous. I may have a good reason for doing all manner of bad things. I don't trust feelings and I trust reason only when it informs Faith. I do not rely on the fallible foibles of my fellow man.

You always try to do what you feel certain is the right thing to do, correct?

When you pray, for example, do you pray like this:
I feel certain that prayer is the wrong thing to do, but I'm going to do it anyway.

No, right? I would expect you to pray like this:
I'm gonna pray because I feel certain that this is what God wants me to do.

Right?

Conscience always dictates your decision. There's no escaping it.

QvQ · Aug 20, 2019

JAL said:
You always try to do what you feel certain is the right thing to do, correct?

When you pray, for example, do you pray like this:
I feel certain that prayer is the wrong thing to do, but I'm going to do it anyway.

No, right? I would expect you to pray like this:
I'm gonna pray because I feel certain that this is what God wants me to do.

Right?

Conscience always dictates your decision. There's no escaping it.

I may feel compelled to get a bowl of ice cream but that isn't conscience. Too many motives move us. Are you stating that all motives, desires and rote decisions are compelled by conscience? I would say "conscious" compels us to most decisions. Different concept, Conscience. Now start a thread and Ask, "Do people know right from wrong? Do people have a conscience and what is that?" I met that man who did not know right from wrong. That changed my mind about who knows, how and when they know. Ask the question, what is conscience and how do people acquire it?

JAL · Aug 20, 2019

QvQ said:
I may feel compelled to get a bowl of ice cream but that isn't conscience. Too many motives move us. Are you stating that all motives, desires and rote decisions are compelled by conscience? I would say "conscious" compels us to most decisions. Different concept, Conscience. Now start a thread and Ask, "Do people know right from wrong? Do people have a conscience and what is that?" I met that man who did not know right from wrong. That changed my mind about who knows, how and when they know. Ask the question, what is conscience and how do people acquire it?

It's wrong to poison someone right? Suppose you have some poison at work.
(A) I feel certain that poisoning my boss is evil.
(B) I feel certain that sparing my boss from poison is good.

Fine. But all of a sudden one day, you feel this:
(A) I feel 100% certain that poisoning my boss is good.
(B) I feel 100% certain that sparing my boss from poison is evil

What should you do? You should poison him because conscience rules. If this happened, most likely it would be by divine influence, say perhaps because God knows that this particular poison will, in the case of your boss, serve as an antidote to something else, thereby saving his life.

You see the benefit? Rule-by-conscience allows God to speak to you even when you don't fully understand His plans.

Without rule-by-conscience, God cannot really run the church.

QvQ · Aug 20, 2019

JAL said:
It's wrong to poison someone right? Suppose you have some poison at work.
(A) I feel certain that poisoning my boss is evil.
(B) I feel certain that sparing my boss from poison is good.

Fine. But all of a sudden one day, you feel this:
(A) I feel 100% certain that poisoning my boss is good.
(B) I feel 100% certain that sparing my boss from poison is evil

What should you do? You should poison him because conscience rules. If this happened, most likely it would be by divine influence, say perhaps because God knows that this particular poison will, in the case of your boss, serve as an antidote to something else, thereby saving his life.

You see the benefit? Rule-by-conscience allows God to speak to you even when you don't fully understand His plans.

Without rule-by-conscience, God cannot really run the church.

The day I "feel" it is right to poison the boss is the day I do one of two things
1) Receive an MD from a College of Medicine
2) Check myself in to the nearest psychiatric unit.
I don't believe in "divine influence" in the sense you mean. I do believe in the Holy Spirit who can clarify the meaning of the Bible.

JAL · Aug 20, 2019

QvQ said:
The day I "feel" it is right to poison the boss is the day I do one of two things
1) Receive an MD from a College of Medicine
2) Check myself in to the nearest psychiatric unit.
I don't believe in "divine influence" in the sense you mean. I do believe in the Holy Spirit who can clarify the meaning of the Bible.

And God would be displeased because you set your heart on evil. Too bad. I had hoped you wanted to walk in righteousness but you just expressed a commitment to do what you believed to be evil. You should have followed Abraham's example. One day, Abraham:
(A) Felt 100% certain that to 'poison' (well slay) his son is good
(B) Felt 100% certain that to spare his son would be evil.

Unlike you, Abraham made the right choice. He obeyed his conscience.

gideon123 · Aug 20, 2019

JAL

Your reasoning is flawed. What was the whole message from Adam and Eve? Human beings cannot set their own moral standards. We are broken and imperfect. Therefore, how can we construct a perfect moral system? We cannot. Therefore, to rely upon your conscience as the final arbiter of right and wrong ... is bound to lead to errors of judgment.

A good example is Epstein, the man who recently committed suicide in a US prison. Epstein was a pedofile, he abused many young people. Did his conscience lead him to admit he was wrong, while all these crimes were ongoing. No. Epstein decided it was society that was wrong, and pedophilia was a justified behavior. He blamed society's standards, and he had no problem with his conscience.

THe Bible gives us the code of conduct laid out by God. Your conscience is not omnipotent over the Bible. Rather ... humble yourself, read the Bible daily, and learn the wisdom of God.

Blessings,
Gideon

Hazelelponi · Aug 20, 2019

JAL said:
It's wrong to poison someone right? Suppose you have some poison at work.
(A) I feel certain that poisoning my boss is evil.
(B) I feel certain that sparing my boss from poison is good.

Fine. But all of a sudden one day, you feel this:
(A) I feel 100% certain that poisoning my boss is good.
(B) I feel 100% certain that sparing my boss from poison is evil

What should you do? You should poison him because conscience rules. If this happened, most likely it would be by divine influence, say perhaps because God knows that this particular poison will, in the case of your boss, serve as an antidote to something else, thereby saving his life.

You see the benefit? Rule-by-conscience allows God to speak to you even when you don't fully understand His plans.

Without rule-by-conscience, God cannot really run the church.

what if I don't feel it's wrong to poison people?

Should I use my conscience?

Or should I refer to the Word of God?

You pretend everyone is automatically ruled by this thing called conscience and that it's going to tell you what is right, but the Bible says men are evil continually...

so shall an evil fallen man use his conscience? Or should he be ruled by a higher authority?

Our natural instinct is to do what makes us happy, or that which will further that happiness..

the natural mans conscience isn't ruled by good.

Your using a false premise here. Fallen man cannot decide what is right and good, and will not seek it.

Yet you are saying it has more worth than the very words of God - Words HE says are sufficient for reproof, correction, for training in righteousness.. Words that brings the knowledge of our salvation to mankind, and your treating it like it has no worth and that your desires should have final authority..

QvQ · Aug 20, 2019

JAL said:
And God would be displeased because you set your heart on evil. Too bad. I had hoped you wanted to walk in righteousness but you just expressed a commitment to do what you believed to be evil. You should have followed Abraham's example. One day, Abraham:
(A) Felt 100% certain that to 'poison' (well slay) his son is good
(B) Felt 100% certain that to spare his son would be evil.

Unlike you, Abraham made the right choice. He obeyed his conscience.

The New Testament agrees with my conscience. If you can find an example of where the Gospel would contradict my conscience, then post it. God would not be displeased nor would He order the killing of a child, as I am a Christian so the answer is still Sola Scriptura.

JAL · Aug 20, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
what if I don't feel it's wrong to poison people?

Should I use my conscience?

Or should I refer to the Word of God?

You pretend everyone is automatically ruled by this thing called conscience and that it's going to tell you what is right, but the Bible says men are evil continually...

so shall an evil fallen man use his conscience? Or should he be ruled by a higher authority?

Our natural instinct is to do what makes us happy, or that which will further that happiness..

the natural mans conscience isn't ruled by good.

Your using a false premise here. Fallen man cannot decide what is right and good, and will not seek it.

Yet you are saying it has more worth than the very words of God - Words HE says are sufficient for reproof, correction, for training in righteousness.. Words that brings the knowledge of our salvation to mankind, and your treating it like it has no worth and that your desires should have final authority..

I am not asking men to decide what is good.That's a separate question. I'm merely pointing out the fact that, at the moment of decision, feeling certain that action A is evil and B good, you are morally obligated to B. Doesn't matter HOW you came to such feelings of certainty. It could be the influence of the Bible, or the influence of the Holy Spirit, or your own reasoning, or an evil influence. That doesn't change your obligation.

There is no exception to the rule of conscience. Conscience is always authoritative, contrary to Sola Scriptura.

Hazelelponi · Aug 20, 2019

JAL said:
I am not asking men to decide what is good.That's a separate question. I'm merely pointing out the fact that, at the moment of decision, feeling certain that action A is evil and B good, you are morally obligated to B. Doesn't matter HOW you came to such feelings of certainty. It could be the influence of the Bible, or the influence of the Holy Spirit, or your own reasoning, or an evil influence. That doesn't change your obligation.

There is no exception to the rule of conscience. Conscience is always authoritative, contrary to Sola Scriptura.

If we are Christian men and women of faith, we accept that we are not the final authority over ourselves. We accept that God is.. and He has left us with 2 witnesses. Written Scripture, the Word of God, and His Holy Spirit.

That should trump any thing we feel.

JAL · Aug 20, 2019

QvQ said:
God would not be displeased nor would He order the killing of a child, as I am a Christian so the answer is still Sola Scriptura.

God would not order the killing of a child? And yet He did. In fact He ordered the killing of 7 nations for Israel to possess Canaan.

Have you ever heard of a thing called war? Have you ever heard of Hitler? I think have. So why would you think God has no interest in telling us whom we should, should not, slaughter? Let me ask you this - would you prefer that the leaders of your nation NOT ask God for guidance on war? Because in your view God has zero compassion for the nations and thus would not tell the leaders which nations to attack or not attack?

In Moses' day, God observed 7 evil nations - 7 Hitlers. Contrary to your suppositions, God actually DOES care about the nations, He cares enough to want to be in communication with leadership - and with the Christians who back that leadership.

QvQ said:
The New Testament agrees with my conscience. If you can find an example of where the Gospel would contradict my conscience, then post it.

I'm not really sure of the relevance of that question or even what it means.

Mostly I'm trying to prove that conscience is obligatory. Abraham's attempt to slaughter his own son shows that conscience is always obligatory.

JAL · Aug 20, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
If we are Christian men and women of faith, we accept that we are not the final authority over ourselves. We accept that God is.. and He has left us with 2 witnesses. Written Scripture, the Word of God, and His Holy Spirit.

That should trump any thing we feel.

Why don't you follow the Koran? Isn't it true that:
- You feel certain that following the Koran would be an evil choice
- And you feel certain that following the Bible is a good choice.

So when you follow the Bible, you are just confirming that conscience is your ultimate authority.

QvQ · Aug 20, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
If we are Christian men and women of faith, we accept that we are not the final authority over ourselves. We accept that God is.. and He has left us with 2 witnesses. Written Scripture, the Word of God, and His Holy Spirit.

That should trump any thing we feel.

JAL said:
I am not asking men to decide what is good.That's a separate question. I'm merely pointing out the fact that, at the moment of decision, feeling certain that action A is evil and B good, you are morally obligated to B. Doesn't matter HOW you came to such feelings of certainty. It could be the influence of the Bible, or the influence of the Holy Spirit, or your own reasoning, or an evil influence. That doesn't change your obligation.

There is no exception to the rule of conscience. Conscience is always authoritative, contrary to Sola Scriptura.

If it is the influence of the Bible and the Spirit, then it is Sola Scriptura. Your own feeling, your own reasoning or an evil influence are all flawed, fallible. I have given your proposition some thought and you are correct. First, I do invoke the Name of God. I call out to Him. Old habit. Focus the mind, center the soul. That is not conscience, it is more...recollection and recall. The response would be based on the Scripture. There are also situational ethics, snap decisions have to be made. When those are made, then it is maybe right, maybe wrong, my own judgement, invoke the Name of God and wing it.

JAL · Aug 20, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
You pretend everyone is automatically ruled by this thing called conscience and that it's going to tell you what is right, but the Bible says men are evil continually...

You're misreading me. My first point is that even when the conscience is misinformed, it is still morally obligatory, because no one should ever intend on doing evil. This becomes a springboard for several additional conclusions on this thread:
- Conscience provides an obviously viable method for God to speak unmistakably to us (via feelings of certainty). It easily creates the possibility of infallible revelation (whereas exegesis can never hope to escape the possibility of human error).
- Hence conscience provides the most plausible theory to date as to how God spoke to the prophets.
- Paul counseled us to seek the gift of prophecy above all other gifts (1Cor 14:1).
- Scripture seems to clearly define evangelism as prophetic utterance (see posts 179 and 180).
- With 100 billion souls at stake, we need infallible revelation - because we can't afford to make mistakes in evangelism. The pursuit of direct revelation should therefore be a top priority in the church (1Cor 14:1).

the natural mans conscience isn't ruled by good.

Even a misinformed conscience is obligatory. If a man feels certain that action A is evil, and action B is good, he must go with B.

Yet you are saying it has more worth than the very words of God - Words HE says are sufficient for reproof, correction, for training in righteousness.. Words that brings the knowledge of our salvation to mankind, and your treating it like it has no worth and that your desires should have final authority..

I'm not sure what standards you are using to 'measure worth'. This is not a thread about measuring worth. It's a thread about the morally binding obligation known as conscience, in repudiation of Sola Scriptura.

Hazelelponi · Aug 20, 2019

JAL said:
Why don't you follow the Koran? Isn't it true that:
- You feel certain that following the Koran would be an evil choice
- And you feel certain that following the Bible is a good choice.

So when you follow the Bible, you are just confirming that conscience is your ultimate authority.

I am a former Muslim, and it took a lot to bring me to Christ. It took reason, it took someone who knew Islam but was a Christian and knew God in truth who could go through every argument and reason it all out... blessed are the feet of those who bring the good news. It took the influence of the Holy Spirit too.

It was a perfect storm that brought me to Christ, a storm that was in the Hand of our sovereign God the whole time.

It wasn't my conscience. If it was up to my conscience I would still be Muslim - that was the "smart" thing, the natural thing.

Now that I belong to Christ, I belong to Him. My conscience does not rule me - God does. And He does so through guidance from both Scripture and the Holy Spirit.

I have little trust of my conscience. 100% trust in God.

JAL · Aug 20, 2019

QvQ said:
If it is the influence of the Bible and the Spirit, then it is Sola Scriptura.

Feelings of certainty are always involved. You are clearly in denial about this point because you dislike the ramifications.

Your own feeling, your own reasoning or an evil influence are all flawed, fallible.

Yes fallible. All you beliefs are fallible because you are fallible. You might even be mistaken about which God or religion is the true one. But you follow Christ because you feel certain that Christianity is the truth. This shows that conscience is your ultimate authority.

Now if tomorrow that changed - if tomorrow you felt certain that Islam is true and Christianity is false, your behavior would change. This too shows that conscience is your ultimate authority.

As human beings, we operate on feelings of certainty. That's how God made us. To ask God to administrate us based on some other principle is asking that He deny Himself and His own creation!
Why can't we just fall in line with the very nature of our psyche as God designed it? Why so much resistance on this thread?

JAL · Aug 20, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
I am a former Muslim, and it took a lot to bring me to Christ. It took reason, it took someone who knew Islam but was a Christian and knew God in truth who could go through every argument and reason it all out... blessed are the feet of those who bring the good news. It took the influence of the Holy Spirit too.

It was a perfect storm that brought me to Christ, a storm that was in the Hand of our sovereign God the whole time.

It wasn't my conscience. If it was up to my conscience I would still be Muslim - that was the "smart" thing, the natural thing.

Now that I belong to Christ, I belong to Him. My conscience does not rule me - God does. And He does so through guidance from both Scripture and the Holy Spirit.

I have little trust of my conscience. 100% trust in God.

Conscience didn't have the final say? So your rationale was:
- I feel certain that following Christ is an evil, wrong thing to do.
- I feel certain that following the Koran is the right thing to do.
Therefore I will follow Christ.

Sorry you're not making any sense. You are in denial about the role of conscience.

Hazelelponi · Aug 20, 2019

JAL said:
Conscience didn't have the final say? So your rationale was:
- I feel certain that following Christ is an evil, wrong thing to do.
- I feel certain that following the Koran is the right thing to do.
Therefore I will follow Christ.

Sorry you're not making any sense. You are in denial about the role of conscience.

Jesus said: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." John 6:44

That's not conscience that's God.

QvQ · Aug 20, 2019

JAL said:
God would not order the killing of a child? And yet He did. In fact He ordered the killing of 7 nations for Israel to possess Canaan.

Have you ever heard of a thing called war? Have you ever heard of Hitler? I think have. So why would you think God has no interest in telling us whom we should, should not, slaughter? Let me ask you this - would you prefer that the leaders of your nation NOT ask God for guidance on war? Because in your view God has zero compassion for the nations and thus would not tell the leaders which nations to attack or not attack?

In Moses' day, God observed 7 evil nations - 7 Hitlers. Contrary to your suppositions, God actually DOES care about the nations, He cares enough to want to be in communication with leadership - and with the Christians who back that leadership.

I'm not really sure of the relevance of that question or even what it means.

Mostly I'm trying to prove that conscience is obligatory. Abraham's attempt to slaughter his own son shows that conscience is always obligatory.

Conscience is not obligatory. It isn't even reliable else why Hitler? He was doing what HE wanted to do, what he believed was right. You say he had a conscience?

Is Sola Scriptura Guilty of Logical Inconsistency?

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